Do you need to believe Jesus is God to be saved?

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Josef,

The simple gospel is John 3:16.

I doubt that many agree with the teaching of John 3:16, or at least accept the way that I read the details:
John 3:16 (KJV): For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Many of the normal popular doctrines could be compared to this simple, pure statement.
1. At the heart of this is "God's love for the world", or the fallen descendants of Adam. We most probably agree here. It is the work of God, initiated and brought to completion by God.
2. God "gave": This indicates the method. He gave Jesus as a sacrifice. He did not beat Jesus in anger as some suggest.
3. "his only begotten Son": This is where we differ. Trinitarians do not accept that Jesus is God's only begotten Son, but believe that somehow Jesus is God, and God the Son, a God-man. Nothing to do with "begettal".
4. "whosever believeth in him": Maybe similar, but Paul's description of being "in him" by water baptism Galatians 3:26-29 is most probably excluded by most.
5. "should not perish": This is what happens to descendants of Adam, they perish, they return to the dust. Most believe that the wicked immortal souls go to hell, but not "perish".
6. "everlasting life": Again, most believe that their soul is immortal and goes to heaven at death, but Jesus is really speaking here of a gift bestowed on the faithful.

So yes, the simple gospel is revealed in John 3:16, and is rejected by most. What is also missing from this verse is what is the ultimate role of Jesus, where is he now, and what will he do in the future. I consider these things are also part of the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name. Also there are many aspects of the "Name" that need to be understood, such as how do we identify with the death and resurrection of Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Walter and Debbie,

Yes, Till we all come in the unity of the faith, Ephesians 4:13

Yes, I agree with your reference, Jesus is not God, or Yahweh, or God the Son. He is the Son of God:
Ephesians 4:13 (KJV): Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
But I do not know how this is actually connected with the question you asked, and my answer.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[hawkman]

Why? Do you have a verse(s).
If the salvific gospel is simple, then clearly state what needs to be done to be saved.

In faith receive Jesus as your Savior .

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

[Smidge]

I have never believed that Jesus was God. If Trinity is true and if Jesus is God, then why didn't Jesus come right out and say so? Instead, he said the Father is Greater. That alone debunks a coequal trinity.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Jesus did say He was God.

John 10:30-33 I and my Father are one.
Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jesus said He was God.
The action of taking up stones is the proper reaction to someone proclaiming to be God.
So the Jews knew what Jesus meant.
Jesus questions their reasoning for picking up stones.
The Jews answer is very clear.

" . . . For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

To deny the deity of Jesus, is to deny His direct word. It also denies the evidence to its veracity via the Jews reaction to what Jesus said. If Jesus was not God, the Jews were acting correctly.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Ezekiel]

In the beginning was the Father and nothing else. The Father thought and the Holy Spirit came into existence and gave Glory of the Father for she was like the Father and covered Him, this is the water you must be born of that flows from above, Father and Holy Spirit. The Father agreed with The Holy Spirit, and Christ came into existence the WORD, the Christ was with the Father and the Father with Him the perfect powers of all things, then the only Son gave Glory of the Father, this is that Spirit you must be born of . Before anything was created the First three. All things that will be created will be the Sons, all things are gave to the son. You must be born of the Water and the Spirit. The upper realms will be created with the Angels. Then the cosmos will be created and this cosmos is the beginning of time. Do you understand these things with the scriptures you study?

 

[Smidge]

The Jews misunderstood Jesus because Jesus never claimed he was God. Being 'one' simply suggest the two are in agreement and on the same page. How did Jesus respond?

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

 

[Smidge]

In the beginning was the Father and nothing else.

That's precisely what John 1 says. In the beginning was God's speech, and God's speech was with God, and God's speech was God. IOW In the beginning was GOD and His speech and NOTHING ELSE!!

 

[Fastfredy0]

In faith receive Jesus as your Savior .

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Now that is a short, simple explanation. Simple enough that a child could be saved
I agree.
I might add one must believe Jesus is God... but I am not 100% certain on that point.
My proof texts of last point would be:
[John 20:31 and 1 John 5:13 also support the idea that one must believe Christ is divine; as well as: 1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit ]

 

[Smidge]

Now that is a short, simple explanation. Simple enough that a child could be saved
I agree.
I might add one must believe Jesus is God... but I am not 100% certain on that point.
My proof texts of last point would be:
[John 20:31 and 1 John 5:13 also support the idea that one must believe Christ is divine; as well as: 1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit ]

If one must believe Jesus is God that implies upon accepting Christ that person must also accept that he is God. I have no problem accepting Jesus' full divinity - but that's all different than accepting the trinity teaching that he's the same person - yet a different person than the Father.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I have never believed that Jesus was God. If Trinity is true and if Jesus is God, then why didn't Jesus come right out and say so? Instead, he said the Father is Greater. That alone debunks a coequal trinity.

Jesus Claimed To Be Divine
John 8:58 “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”
John 10:38 “But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.”
John 14:9 “Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?” 10 “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.”

The Apostles Taught that Jesus Was Divine
Matthew 1:23 “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”
Mark 1:1 “The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;”
Luke 1:35 “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”
John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
John 1:14 “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
John 20:31 “But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
Philippians 2:6 “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:”
Colossians 1:16 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:”
Colossians 2:9 “For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.”

etc. etc.

 

[Fastfredy0]

but that's all different than accepting the trinity teaching that he's the same person - yet a different person than the Father

The doctrine of the Trinity does NOT save Jesus is the "same person". This is one of Free 's favorite topics. Maybe he will take it up with you.

Aside: To some degree 'the trinity' is a mystery.

 

[Ezekiel]

That's precisely what John 1 says. In the beginning was God's speech, and God's speech was with God, and God's speech was God. IOW In the beginning was GOD and His speech and NOTHING ELSE!!

I prefer not to use speech as we understand. I prefer impression, this is the way they speak, speech, talk so that we hear, see, understand.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again josef and Fastfred0,

Jesus did say He was God. John 10:30-33 I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jesus said He was God. The action of taking up stones is the proper reaction to someone proclaiming to be God.
So the Jews knew what Jesus meant. Jesus questions their reasoning for picking up stones. The Jews answer is very clear.

Trinitarians side with the false accusation by the Jews and refuse to consider the comprehensive answers given by Jesus. Please refer my comments in an earlier Post. If you want to discuss EACH portion of Jesus' answer then we could proceed, but most of the answers are obvious, that Jesus is not agreeing that He is God, but that He is claiming to be The Son of God.

Do you need to believe Jesus is God to be saved?

Whether one must believe that Jesus is God to be saved (at the time of conversion) is debatable. However, as time goes and a new believer gains knowledge of scripture, I think it would be likely that one would start believing in His deity, and I would definitely not recommend anyone to maintain...

christianforums.net

" . . . For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."
To deny the deity of Jesus, is to deny His direct word. It also denies the evidence to its veracity via the Jews reaction to what Jesus said. If Jesus was not God, the Jews were acting correctly.

Jesus Claimed To Be Divine
John 10:38 “But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.”

The Jews were desperately trying to entrap Jesus, and ignored what He stated, and in frustration the leaders would be the first to pick up the stones, and try to encourage the volatile crowd to cast the first stone, but even the normal people could see their scheme and their duplicity. The common people would most probably understand EVERY aspect of Jesus' answers, as they would be the humble who had "ears to hear". Triniatarians seem to be blind and deaf to what Jesus gives as answers.

Jesus Claimed To Be Divine
John 8:58 “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”

John 8:58 should be translated "I am he", the same as John 8:24,28 and is part of the theme of whether or not Jesus is the Christ, the true seed of Abraham. Exodus 3:14 should be translated "I will be".

John 14:9 “Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?” 10 “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.”

Jesus as the Son of God, full of grace and truth, fully revealed the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. Jesus is not claiming to be The Father.

The Apostles Taught that Jesus Was Divine
Matthew 1:23 “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”

The conception and birth was a Divine process and evidence that God was with them to bring about salvation through Jesus, a human, the Son of God.

Mark 1:1 “The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;”
Luke 1:35 “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

Yes, Jesus is The Son of God, because God the Father is his father in the conception, birth process, not because God the Son was shrunk into the womb of Mary. Jesus is The Son of God not God the Son, or God, or a God-man. Jesus and God the Father are two separate Beings.

John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
John 1:14 “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

Yes, in the beginning was The Word, not Jesus, and God's plan, purpose came to fruition in the birth of His only begotten Son, who when revealed at the beginning of His Ministry, was shown to reveal God's glory, He was full of grace and truth. The Word is similar to the Wise Woman "Wisdom" who was with God in the creation Proverbs 8.

John 20:31 “But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

Yes, the Christ, The Son of God.

Philippians 2:6 “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:”

Jesus is being compared with Adam who grasped at equality with God.

Colossians 1:16 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:”

The natural creation was made for him, and he is the means by which the new creation comes into being.

Colossians 2:9 “For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.”

Yes, he fully reveals the Father.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Smidge]

The doctrine of the Trinity does NOT save Jesus is the "same person". This is one of Free 's favorite topics. Maybe he will take it up with you.

Aside: To some degree 'the trinity' is a mystery.

Being that it's a mystery, it makes me wonder why it has become the core doctrine of the Church.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Being that it's a mystery, it makes me wonder why it has become the core doctrine of the Church.

Well, the Trinity is not a complete mystery, just certain aspects.
It is a core doctrine as it does explain aspects of scripture.

 

[Free]

That's precisely what John 1 says. In the beginning was God's speech, and God's speech was with God, and God's speech was God. IOW In the beginning was GOD and His speech and NOTHING ELSE!!

This is what John says:

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (ESV)

More accurately:

In beginning was the Word and the Word was with the God and God was the Word.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1.htm

We should be careful in choosing just one definition of Logos when translating it and trying to understand what John is saying. Logos has several meanings and context determines which meaning. In the case of John 1:1, it could be that several meanings apply. According to Vern Poythress, "logos in Greek has a range of meaning, including reason, law, word, speaking, declaration" (Logic, p. 70).

But there are other issues with believing only the Father existed along with his words.

"Was the Word." "Was" is the Greek, en, which speaks of absolute preexistence before any creation. What that statement means is that when the beginning began, the Word was already in existence, and hence, there was never a time when he did not exist. The very same applies to the Father, who has absolute preexistence.

"And the Word was with God." With" is the Greek word pros. Being in the accusative case, it denotes motion towards. It isn't merely being with but it is intimate union and communion; it is interpersonal relationship inseparable from God, yet distinct from him. "God" contains the article in the Greek--"the God"--and is therefore a reference to the Father (at a minimum).

"The Word was God." It is significant that "God" doesn't have the article in the Greek. As such, it refers to the nature of the Word. It is saying that the Word was divine or deity.

Ideas, statements, speeches, etc., cannot fit with what John was meaning; only a person can. Only a person can be in intimate relationship with another person.

John's whole point is who the Word is. To sum then, the Word had eternal preexistence, the same as the Father, in intimate relationship with God, and was in nature deity himself. Yet, we know there was only one God. The best explanation is that there is plurality within the one God, hence, the historical doctrine of the Trinity best takes this evidence into account.

If one must believe Jesus is God that implies upon accepting Christ that person must also accept that he is God.

Correct.

I have no problem accepting Jesus' full divinity

Which can only mean he is God.

- but that's all different than accepting the trinity teaching that he's the same person - yet a different person than the Father.

But that is not what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches. By definition, the Trinity is that within the one Being that is God, there are three coeternal, coequal, consubstantial persons.

It's both clear and ultimately incomprehensible. The three foundations are clear:

1. There is only one God (monotheism).
2. There are three divine persons.
3. The three persons are coequal and coeternal.
(James R. White, The Forgotten Trinity, p. 28)

How three persons can eternally coexist within the one being that is God, is incomprehensible, yet the Bible tells us that is the case. It's no different than the incarnation--it is ultimately incomprehensible, yet we can understand what is clearly stated: that the Son became man, without ceasing to be God.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I did not know all of this before I became a Christian . Did you ?

I believe you were saved when you started your way toward Him.

God saves His children who come to Jesus even if on some unclear level they know Jesus is God's Son, God the Son.

In my case, I learned the JWs were wrong about the Holy Spirit and Jesus, but still didn't "make the leap" to confessing Jesus as LORD Yahweh. I kept crying out to "Jehovah the Father" to answer my cry for help.

He remained silent.

It wasn't until I called a Radio Baptist preacher who had me confess publicly Jesus is LORD, and that God raised Him from the dead, that I was born again.

Until I went to Jesus as God the Son, I wasn't saved. But even when I confessed He is LORD, none of this was clear to me, I was still confused. God saved me anyway.

Start walking toward Him, and He runs to meet you on the way:

18 `I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you,
19 "and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants."'
20 "And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him.
21 "And the son said to him,`Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
22 "But the father said to his servants,`Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet.
23 `And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry;
24 `for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' And they began to be merry.
(Lk. 15:18-24 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Jesus said this to the Jews who had the Old Testament.
I think all somebody has to know is that Jesus is the OT Messiah and that God used Him as a sacrifice for their sins. Otherwise, we are getting at salivation through knowledge rather than through faith.

A study of the Gospels reveals Jesus preaching bluntly that He is God in the Flesh, and that is why they crucified Him. He claimed to be God's Son, equal with God:

30 "I and My Father are one."
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."
34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law,`I said, "You are gods "'?
35 "If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
36 "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world,`You are blaspheming,' because I said,`I am the Son of God '?
37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38 "but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."
39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand. (Jn. 10:30-39 NKJ)

Christ never denied they were right, He did claim to be God. But as a Master Street Preacher Jesus knew how to confuse them with an OT quote, they were about to stone Him.

But that "deflection" didn't diminish one iota His claim He is God in the flesh.

 

[Fastfredy0]

White/Tuggy Debate: Is Jesus Yahweh? 2:15 minutes long