Jesus Christ Claims to be Yahweh - John 8:23-25

[TrevorL]

Greetings again SolaScriptura,

Unitarianism CANNOT explain these FACTS!

You did not answer my question about the other "begotten" and this difficulty is one of the many why I do not accept the Trinity. I believe that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father was the Creator.

I believe that Jesus was and is a human and did not pre-exist his birth. I am therefore in a different position to the JWs. I consider that both Trinitarians and JWs have teachings contrary to the Bible teaching.

I will leave this thread now. Enough has been discussed and I am not proficient at answering some of these Jesus as "creator" passages though I could copy and paste a few answers. I will leave this to others with better knowledge and exposition skills. Psalm 8:1 teaches me that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[SolaScriptura]

Greetings again SolaScriptura,

You did not answer my question about the other "begotten" and this difficulty is one of the many why I do not accept the Trinity. I believe that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father was the Creator.

I believe that Jesus was and is a human and did not pre-exist his birth. I am therefore in a different position to the JWs. I consider that both Trinitarians and JWs have teachings contrary to the Bible teaching.

I will leave this thread now. Enough has been discussed and I am not proficient at answering some of these Jesus as "creator" passages though I could copy and paste a few answers. I will leave this to others with better knowledge and exposition skills. Psalm 8:1 teaches me that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator.

Kind regards
Trevor

The only BEGETTING of Jesus Christ is at His Conception in the Virgin Mary

 

[JLB]

I believe that Jesus was and is a human and did not pre-exist his birth.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. John 1:1-3

• and the Word was God.

Here we see that all things were made through Him (The Word).

All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Nothing that was made, was made without Him.


The Word became Flesh.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

• The Word was God.
• The Word became flesh.
• God was manifested in the flesh

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16



Please tell me what you disagree with in these scriptures.

 

[SolaScriptura]

I believe that Jesus was and is a human and did not pre-exist his birth

Isaiah 9.6 is on verse that proves you wrong

Also

John 6:51
[51]I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world. ”

 

[Runningman]

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6


Moses was seeing the Son of God, the Angel of the LORD who is the LORD (YHWH) God.

The Angel of the LORD isn't YHWH according to Scrpture. YHWH and the Angel of the LORD have a conversation. Therefore they are not the same person.

Zechariah 1
12Then the angel of the LORD said, “How long, O LORD of Hosts, will You withhold mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been angry these seventy years?”

13So the LORD spoke kind and comforting words to the angel who was speaking with me.

14Then the angel who was speaking with me said, “Proclaim this word: This is what the LORD of Hosts says: ‘I am very jealous for Jerusalem and Zion, 15but I am fiercely angry with the nations that are at ease. For I was a little angry, but they have added to the calamity.b’

 

[Runningman]

Isaiah 9.6 is on verse that proves you wrong

Isaiah 9:6 disproves the Trinity because the child who was born isn't the Everlasting Father. The Son and Father are not the same person in the Trinity.

Also

John 6:51
[51]I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world. ”

Jesus is a human from heaven, i,e, the Son of Man. The "Son of God" descending from heaven isn't found in the Bible. Of course, a literal human didn't descend from the sky. It's about God's plans in heaven manifesting on earth. Jesus didn't have a literal pre-exististent. Please quote the book, chapter, and verse that says Jesus was saying or doing X thing in the Old Testament. Thank you.

John 3
13No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Greetings again SolaScriptura,

You did not answer my question about the other "begotten" and this difficulty is one of the many why I do not accept the Trinity. I believe that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father was the Creator.

I believe that Jesus was and is a human and did not pre-exist his birth. I am therefore in a different position to the JWs. I consider that both Trinitarians and JWs have teachings contrary to the Bible teaching.

I will leave this thread now. Enough has been discussed and I am not proficient at answering some of these Jesus as "creator" passages though I could copy and paste a few answers. I will leave this to others with better knowledge and exposition skills. Psalm 8:1 teaches me that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator.

Kind regards
Trevor

15 Bible verses about Preexistence Of Christ

A topical Bible which shows the most relevant Bible verse for each topic

bible.knowing-jesus.com

 

[Runningman]

Jesus didn't literally pre-exist. He wasn't actually slain before the foundation of the world, but on a cross in Israel. The Bible says he died one time, not two.

Revelation 13
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Hebrews 9
28so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.

 

[Free]

Greetings again Free,

It appears that I am accused of blasphemy by SolaScriptura and this is endorsed by JLB. I have stated my position in a number of Posts in various threads, and also my thread "The Yahweh Name". I still cannot understand the subject of the "Trinity", and here are a few problems that I still cannot resolve.

This seems to be one of your favourite statements. Could you please explain in what sense is Jesus or God the Son the begotten Son of God? When did he become begotten? When did it happen?

We must remember that we are the analogues of God, not the other way around. That means that if God uses certain language of himself, he does so in order to communicate certain things about himself in a way we can understand. And we know a son is always of the same nature as his father; it is impossible to be otherwise. As such, in using the terms such as Father and Son, God communicates something to us about himself in a way that we can understand. Of course, it is much more complex than in understanding human relationships, as one should expect.

It follows that because the Son is also God in nature, he must necessarily have absolute existence (he has never not existed). He is eternally begotten, as the Athanasian Creed states, not that “begotten” is necessarily the best meaning of the Greek. “Only begotten” in John 1:14 and 18, is the Greek word monogenes, which means “only born,” “unique,” or “one and only.” It speaks of the eternal relationship between the Father and the Son, not actual begetting as though the Son had a beginning, and is better thought of as an anthropomorphism.

How do you understand the following that seems to indicate that God is the Father of the human nature of Jesus, and Jesus as a result of this Divine intervention, as a human is called "the Son of God". Mary is his mother, God the Father is his father in the conception / birth process.
Luke 1:34–35 (KJV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

First, it is the Holy Spirit that was to “come upon” Mary, not the Father. The Father and the Holy Spirit are consistently kept distinct from one another. Second, that Jesus “shall be called the Son of God,” just means that that is what he would called; it doesn’t mean to at he didn’t preexist as the Son of God. But there is not much to understanding that passage. Among the numerous passages that must be considered about God and the Son of God, so that we don’t take just one verse out of passage, is the passage about Jesus’s coming birth in Matthew:

Mat 1:20 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
Mat 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”
Mat 1:22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:
Mat 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us). (ESV)

 

[skidootech]

This is where you are wrong!

The Greek in verse 9 reads, “ὁ θεὸς ὁ θεός σου”, which is as verse 8, used as the vocative in direct address. the correct English is, "O God Your God", or more fully, "therefore O God, Your God, has anointed You". So we have TWO distinct Persons Who are equally called GOD.

The Jewish Hebrew scholar, Aquila, who published a Greek Version of the Old Testament, in the middle of the 2nd century A.D., translates the Hebrew, by the Greek, “ο θρονος σου θεε”, which is undoubtedly the vocative, “Your throne, O God”. (Fredrick Field, Origen Hexapla, vol. II, pp. 162-163)

In the Jewish Aramaic Targum on the Psalm, the words are used as a direct address to Jehovah, “The throne of Thy majesty, O Jehovah, abideth for ever and ever.” (Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges).

The Jewish Bible online, reads: “Thy throne, O God” (https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/tehillim-psalms-chapter-45). As is the reading of another Jewish Bible, “Thy throne, O God” (Dr A Benisch; Jewish School and Family Bible, Vol.IV).

The New Testament by the Unitarian, Dr George Noyes, reads: “but of the Son: ‘Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever”. He would have denied the Deity of Jesus Christ, yet it is clear from his own translation, that God the Father here calls Jesus Christ, GOD. In John 1:1, this version reads, “and the Word was God”. And, in John 1:18, “No one hath ever seen God; the only begotten God”. Clear references to the Deity of Jesus Christ, by a Unitarian!

The evidence is against what you say!

ha ha ha completely false it is simple reading you are trying to modify god's word. God your God means his God and his God is the God he worships. the third part where His God has anointed him to be above his fellows means he is not above his fellows and has to be anointed by his God to be above them, this shows he is not co equal. so no a normal reading shows that the word of god is against you.

 

[skidootech]

The only BEGETTING of Jesus Christ is at His Conception in the Virgin Mary

really
Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And Yehovah Elohim shall give Him the throne of His father David.

who is his father according to God

 

[SolaScriptura]

really
Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And Yehovah Elohim shall give Him the throne of His father David.

who is his father according to God

Who do you think that the Prophecy in Isaiah 40.3 referring to?

 

[skidootech]

Why are those who openly reject and oppose the Trinity and the full Deity of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, allowed to continue to blaspheme on this forum?

It is not that they are seeking to know the Truth of what the Bible actually teaches, but to do the work of the devil by their lies?

the reason should be simple because we are not blaspheming

in first corinthians after speaking of false beliefs he defines true christianity

1Cor8:6 yetG235for usG1473there is oneG1520GodG2316,the FatherG3962,fromG1537whomG3739are all thingsG3956andG2532forG1519whomG846weG1473live, andG2532oneG1520LordG2962,JesusG2424ChristG5547,throughG1223whomG3739are all thingsG3956andG2532throughG1223whomG3739weG1473live.(NET2.1 Free)

simple reading for us true christians there is one God the FATHER and onelord Yeshua the messiah, it must be remembered that the word “lord”Yeshua does not mean God first of all because for Paul there is onlyone God, the FATHER , and second Yeshua was made LORD and CHRIST byGOD acts 2:36. the use of through whom were all things simply meansthat the whole creation was made for the messiah, it does not mean hewas there. Also not there is no mention of the holy spirit as a thirdperson thus no trinity for Paul or he would be blaspheming by notsaying it.

Acts2:36 Thereforelet allthe houseof Israelknowbeyond a doubtthatGodhas made thisJesuswhomyoucrucifiedBOTHLORDANDCHRIST.”(NET2.1 Free)

this same sentiment is echoed by Yeshua himself

John17:3 Andthis is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and JesusChrist whom you have sent.(ESV2011)

Yeshua here says that it is eternal life to know the true God, now trintarians have again twisted the words to try and prove that Yeshua is also true God. The problem is they neglect to mention the most important word in this verse, it is the word “you” when Yeshua says YOU the only true God, the “you” he is speaking of is the FATHER and by saying “you” he automatically excludes himself from being God or even A God. Thus Yeshua himself denies being God, but ofcourse there will be twisting of scripture to deny this, but those twisting should that every soul that does listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people (acts 3:23)

in first John we find even stronger words

1John 2:22Whois the liar but he who deniesthat Jesus is the Christ?This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.(ESV2011)


1John 2:23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son hasthe Father also.(ESV2011)

the one who denies that Yeshua is the christ is anti christ. A christ is a man made holy by the holy spirit of God thus cannot be God since God is holy or clean.


The another problem is he who denies the father and the son, this is a statement of belief, now I believe in the father and the son as the only two persons, but trinitarians add a third person, the holy spirit. Now John here is making a very heavy charge, he certainly does not want anyone believing he is anti christ so his wording must be exact. But he does not mention a trinity but the father and the son only, this should be clear

 

[skidootech]

Who do you think that the Prophecy in Isaiah 40.3 referring to?

don't defer the language of this verse is very clear who is his father according to God in luke 1:32

 

[Runningman]

Who do you think that the Prophecy in Isaiah 40.3 referring to?

That's what John the Baptist came saying about God in John 1:23, but regarding Jesus John said Jesus is a man, not the Lord YHWH.

John 1
29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is He of whom I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because He was before me.’ 31I myself did not know Him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that He might be revealed to Israel.”

32Then John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove and resting on Him. 33I myself did not know Him, but the One who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is He who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”

 

[SolaScriptura]

don't defer the language of this verse is very clear who is his father according to God in luke 1:32

Simply answer the question if you can

 

[Free]

the reason should be simple because we are not blaspheming

in first corinthians after speaking of false beliefs he defines true christianity

1Cor8:6 yetG235for usG1473there is oneG1520GodG2316,the FatherG3962,fromG1537whomG3739are all thingsG3956andG2532forG1519whomG846weG1473live, andG2532oneG1520LordG2962,JesusG2424ChristG5547,throughG1223whomG3739are all thingsG3956andG2532throughG1223whomG3739weG1473live.(NET2.1 Free)

simple reading for us true christians there is one God the FATHER and onelord Yeshua the messiah, it must be remembered that the word “lord”Yeshua does not mean God first of all because for Paul there is onlyone God, the FATHER , and second Yeshua was made LORD and CHRIST byGOD acts 2:36. the use of through whom were all things simply meansthat the whole creation was made for the messiah, it does not mean hewas there.

Let's look at that verse and what Paul is saying.

1Co 8:4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.”
1Co 8:5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”—
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

First, in verses 4 and 5 Paul affirms monotheism--that there was, is, and ever will be only one God. Every other "god" is a "so-called" god. Second, "through" or "by" (depending on the version) is the Greek word dia, which means "by means of." This can only mean that Jesus was an intermediary in creation, that he most certainly was there when creation began.

Third, simple logic shows us that Jesus is God. If "from whom are all things" speaks of the Father's absolute existence, that he has always existed, then "through whom are all things" speaks of the Son's absolute existence. This is precisely what John mentions in John 1:1-3 and what Paul mentions again in Col 1:16-17. Heb 1:10-12 also shows that the Son created everything, even referring to him as YHWH.

Fourth, it is Paul's expansion on the Shema: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one" (Deut 6:4, ESV). Fifth, simple logic also shows us that if "one God, the Father" excludes Jesus from ever being God, then it necessarily follows that "one Lord, Jesus Christ" excludes the Father from ever being Lord. Yet, we know that the Father is also Lord.

So, Paul is actually affirming that Jesus is both truly God and truly man, equal to the Father, yet that there is only one God. This is a very Trinitarian passage.

 

[SolaScriptura]

don't defer the language of this verse is very clear who is his father according to God in luke 1:32

Let me help you out here

Matthew 3:3

For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying: “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord; Make His paths straight.’ ”

Nothing can be more clear in what we read in the Four Gospels, that the FULFILMENT of the Prophecy in the Prophet Isaiah of the Coming of YHWH, in 40.3, is 100% FULFILLED In the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is because Jesus Christ is YHWH that this is in the Gospels!

Any honest person will agree that Jesus Christ is YHWH

 

[Runningman]

Third, simple logic shows us that Jesus is God.

The only God mentioned in what you wrote is the Father and Paul said the Father is their one singular God. 1 Cor. 8:6

It would logically follow that Jesus isn't God, then.

 

[Runningman]

Let me help you out here

Matthew 3:3

For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying: “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord; Make His paths straight.’ ”

Nothing can be more clear in what we read in the Four Gospels, that the FULFILMENT of the Prophecy in the Prophet Isaiah of the Coming of YHWH, in 40.3, is 100% FULFILLED In the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is because Jesus Christ is YHWH that this is in the Gospels!

Any honest person will agree that Jesus Christ is YHWH

John the Baptist didn't apply anything about being the LORD YHWH to Jesus. John the Baptist said Jesus is a man, the Lamb of God, the Son of God. John 1:29-34

Throughout the Bible the Son of God or Lamb of God are demonstrably not God.

The word "of" indicates an association between two entities, typically one of belonging.

This literally means Jesus is God's Son and God's Lamb in the possessive sense.

1 Corinthians 3
23and you belong to Christ, and Christ belongs to God.