Do You Support Capital Punishment? (Death For Certain Crimes)

[jasonc]

So you believe that because the N.T. does NOT state something is wrong...
that makes it be right?

Ok,since I know you,support trump.

Jesus in Roman times said render unto career that which is his,in a few centuries roman taxation became quite high.

This can be played with a lot .I,pay taxes despite having lower income then people make "less".wonder ful tax laws.got told by,my,accountant to use my,second job to pay more to the its to keep my,wife's ssi from being taxed.

Since taxation at gun point isnt exactly,the same as self defense ,for the same of debate ,one could argue the forced resistance to overtaxation is wrong.

I'm not one to buy that but well it becomes arbitrary on this stuff .

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

So you believe that because the N.T. does NOT state something is wrong...
that makes it be right?

I just do not find in the NT where the death penalty is condemned. If there was something wrong, sinful about the death penalty I believe the NT would clearly point that out.

 

[ntcplanters]

Yes, because the Bible does. When Christ comes in the Millennial Kingdom, capital punishment will be used.

 

[GodsGrace]

I just do not find in the NT where the death penalty is condemned. If there was something wrong, sinful about the death penalty I believe the NT would clearly point that out.

Actually God condemned many to death.
But this creates a problem since one of the commandments is YOU WILL NOT KILL
This is a moral truth that comes from God,,,and God cannot be unfaithful to Himself
2 Timothy 2:13b

There were some sins in the O.T. of which the penalty was death.
So you're right.

I still don't agree with it, however.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, because the Bible does. When Christ comes in the Millennial Kingdom, capital punishment will be used.

Welcome to the forum.

Where is the above stated??

 

[jasonc]

[/QUOTE]k0

Welcome to the forum.

Where is the above stated??

Zechariah 14.

 

[GodsGrace]

k0
Zechariah 14.
[/QUOTE]
You should better tell me the chapter and verse.
I think this is one of those prophetic books I try to skip over.
Daniel is another good one,
and Revelation is right up there.

This is what we were discussing:
Yes, because the Bible does. When Christ comes in the Millennial Kingdom, capital punishment will be used.

 

[jasonc]

k0
Zechariah 14.

You should better tell me the chapter and verse.
I think this is one of those prophetic books I try to skip over.
Daniel is another good one,
and Revelation is right up there.

This is what we were discussing:
Yes, because the Bible does. When Christ comes in the Millennial Kingdom, capital punishment will be used.
[/QUOTE]
The millinium,,like the trinity is a doctrine .there is no one verse.

But revelation 20,at the end of the millinium Satan raised an army,to attack the Holy,City and God destroys them.

Zech 14:18.

I'm not even pre mil,but amil

 

[Walpole]

I just do not find in the NT where the death penalty is condemned. If there was something wrong, sinful about the death penalty I believe the NT would clearly point that out.

And wouldn't Christ have condemned it since He was a victim of it?

Here is St. Paul implying the authority of the state to enforce capital punishment...

Romans 13:1-4 ---> "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer."

 

[JAG ..]

Jag, much of what you are presenting seem to be arguments from emotional positions rather than Scriptural. You keep asking questions that do not require Scriptural answers but would rather identify the person's feelings about the subject. Our feelings have nothing to do with the truth from God. We should strive toward truth rather than satisfy our feelings.

The reason I bring this up is because what you are doing is not going to lead the discussion toward common ground but rather division and that would go against our Terms of Service. Let's try to keep the perspective on the truth of God's word.

"Jag, much of what you are presenting seem to be arguments from emotional positions rather than Scriptural."__WIP

I disagree. I have argued from Biblical positions and Biblical principles and have quoted numerous verses from God's word the Holy Bible.

"You keep asking questions that do not require Scriptural answers but would rather identify the person's feelings about the subject."___WIP

I disagree with that too. My view is that all the questions that I have asked were fully supported by Bible verses and Bible principles from God's word.


"Our feelings have nothing to do with the truth from God. We should strive toward truth rather than satisfy our feelings."__WIP

My Opening Post and all my other posts in this thread are based on solid Bible verses and solid Biblical principles. My position on the Death Penalty is un-popular here at cf.net.

"Let's try to keep the perspective on the truth of God's word."__WIP

My view is that I have done exactly that.

"The reason I bring this up is because what you are doing is not going to lead the discussion toward common ground but rather division and that would go against our Terms of Service. "__WIP

I NEVER argue with a Moderator. And I have a strong desire to always follow the Terms Of Service and I will cheerfully do as you request.

I think I have made all the points, and quoted all the Bible verses, and stated all the Biblical Principles, that I need to make, quote, and state on the subject of the Death Penalty --- in my Opening Post and in my other posts in this thread.

WIP, thank you very much for reading my Opening Post and for reading my other posts in this thread.

God Bless.


`

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

And wouldn't Christ have condemned it since He was a victim of it?

...and He was innocent. I know some make the argument against death penalty for innocent people can die.

Here is St. Paul implying the authority of the state to enforce capital punishment...

Romans 13:1-4 ---> "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer."

Yes.

Acts 25:11 "If then I am a wrong-doer, and have committed anything worthy of death, I refuse not to die; but if none of those things is true whereof these accuse me, no man can give me up unto them. I appeal unto Caesar. "

Paul understood certain crimes committed were "worthy of death"

 

[WIP]

I just do not find in the NT where the death penalty is condemned. If there was something wrong, sinful about the death penalty I believe the NT would clearly point that out.

I'm not sure where I stand on the death penalty. The Bible (God) may not condemn the death penalty but I wonder if mankind is in a position or has the authority to carry out the death penalty? It's almost a do as I say, not as I do mentality.

We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and the penalty for our sin is death. We have been issued a command that we shall not kill. In an indirect way, Satan issued the death penalty to Eve by his deception and there were consequences. Cain issued the death penalty to Able and there were consequences. Jesus told Peter that those who live by the sword will die by the sword.

 

[Randy]

I lost you at the bakery.

You're not listing verses and I can't follow your reasoning.
Was Jesus speaking about Him being one witness and the Father another witness in regards to the death penaly?

And what does your question mean regarding the penalty of a crime making a trial unfair????

I'll end the discussion here. I have nothing new to add to what I have already stated.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not sure where I stand on the death penalty. The Bible (God) may not condemn the death penalty but I wonder if mankind is in a position or has the authority to carry out the death penalty? It's almost a do as I say, not as I do mentality.

We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and the penalty for our sin is death. We have been issued a command that we shall not kill. In an indirect way, Satan issued the death penalty to Eve by his deception and there were consequences. Cain issued the death penalty to Able and there were consequences. Jesus told Peter that those who live by the sword will die by the sword.

Thanks for bringing up such good examples WIP.
I didn't think of them.....
Jesus was God and He stopped the stoning of the adulterous woman.
This was representative of what type of person He was and what He believed.

 

[jasonc]

Thanks for bringing up such good examples WIP.
I didn't think of them.....
Jesus was God and He stopped the stoning of the adulterous woman.
This was representative of what type of person He was and what He believed.

This is the first advent ,the second advent he won't be like that

 

[daninthelionsden]

"i think God knew His business better than we do when He instituted the death penalty for certain crimes."__Truthfrees

My view is that God has not instituted the Death Penalty for we who are now living under the guidelines and truths of the New Testament.

Here are some of my reasons for holding this position.

New Testament:
(1) To the best of my knowledge the New Testament does not command the Death Penalty for any crime. There is no verse in the New Testament that specifically says that the Death Penalty is either right or wrong, or should or should not be instituted.

Romans 13 says that the authorities (the government) have been established by God and that the authorities do not "bear the sword for nothing." (Romans 13:4) Paul does NOT explain what he means when he said they do not "bear the sword for nothing."

My view is that it is impossible to demonstrate with certainty that Paul was saying that the authorities have God's approval to impose the Death Penalty merely because Paul said that the authorities did not "bear the sword for nothing."

They do not "bear the sword for nothing" can easily mean ONLY that the authorities have God's approval to punish evil-doers. The text does NOT say what kind of punishment they have God's approval to inflict upon evil-doers. One can speculate about this, but there is NOT a clear and certain word from God on this issue in Romans chapter 13. Its all going to be merely personal speculation and personal opinions.

So if you interpret they do not "bear the sword for nothing" to be a specific reference to applying the Death Penalty you do that without any clear and certain Biblical warrant for that interpretation. Also, to be consistent, you would have to hold that the authorities had to use an actual sword when they applied the Death Penalty. The text says "sword" it does NOT say "lethal injection" or "gas chamber" or "hanging" etc.

So the question is raised. What does Romans 13 say about what killing method the authorities all allowed by God to use when they kill a person convicted of a Capital Crime? My view is that Romans 13 says nothing about the method to be used and therefore says nothing about the Death Penalty.

Old Testament:
(2) I am reasonably certain that no one would appeal to the Old Testament for their authority to hold that God does approve of the Death Penalty for we who are now living under the guidelines and truths of the New Testament. Why not? Because those Old Testament Death Penalty laws obviously do NOT apply to us today.

Here is why they don't apply to us today:

(A) "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death" Exodus 21:17

(B) If anyone fails to confine a dangerous bull known to gore and the owner has been warned and fails to keep the bull penned up, then the text says that the owner of the bull "must be put to death." (The passage does allow the man to redeem his life with a money payment under certain conditions.) Exodus 21:28-30

(C) "Whoever does any work on the Sabbath Day must be put to death." Exodus 31:12

Summing up.
(1) The New Testament does NOT have a clear and certain verse where God has instituted the Death Penalty for we who live under the guidelines and truths of the New Testament.

(2) If you appeal to the Old Testament, then to be consistent, you would be forced to advocate the Death Penalty for "anyone who curses his father or mother" Exodus 21:17 and whoever "does any work on the Sabbath Day" Exodus 31:12 Advocating this would be totally irrational.

Death by stoning:

Leviticus 24:16 says that anyone who blasphemes the name of God must be put to death and that the entire assembly must stone him to death.

It would be unthinkable for we Christians here in the 22nd century to advocate and support the United States Government taking people who blaspheme God's name to a place where they would then be stoned to death.

____________

Truthfrees, I can and do understand and sympathize with your position on the Death Penalty. I fully understand that your intentions are to uphold and defend your conception of justice.

In my youth and back when I subscribed to conservative leanings (hardcore), I supported the death penalty. I'm now a fence rider on the subject. Innocent people have been put to death. I think if the person were caught red-handed committing the murder then death penalty. Otherwise life imprisonment.

 

[JAG ..]

In my youth and back when I subscribed to conservative leanings (hardcore), I supported the death penalty. I'm now a fence rider on the subject. Innocent people have been put to death. I think if the person were caught red-handed committing the murder then death penalty. Otherwise life imprisonment.

"Innocent people have been put to death.:__Daninthelionsden

Daninthe lionsden,

Thanks for your comments. I am about finished in this thread, having made all the points I wish to make, however based on your comment up there, you might find the article at the link below, to be interesting and helpful.

God Bless.

Start quote.
"123 inmates on death row have been released in 25 different states throughout the United States since 1973. These death row inmates were released due to the evidence proving they were innocent all along."
End quote.
Source:

9 Arguments Against the Death Penalty: Are There Any Pros?

There are more cons than pros when it comes to the death penalty. Here’s why you should be against capital punishment too.

nodeathpenalty.org

 

[for_his_glory]

erlc.com/Killing. Are there exceptions

Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Is there a conflict between these two scriptures, no.

Murder is the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice or forethought. Murder, therefore, is distinguished from killing by the issue of motive.

Jesus identified that motive behind murder as anger in Matthew 5:21, 22. Christ goes to the root of the behavior and sees the anger behind the action. The act of murder is still subject to the punishment in Genesis 9:6.

In Exodus 20:13 God forbids murder as He emphasizes the value of human life because we are all made in His image, but God also shows us that killing doesn't always fall under the category of murder.

Situations where killing is not murder as in accidental death or in self-defense where one is allowed to protect them self, Exodus 22:2, 3; Deuteronomy 19; Nehemiah 4:11-14. Exodus 22:2, 3. If a thief breaks into your house at night time and is struck that he would die there is no blood guilt on the who causes the thief to die. But if it is during the daylight then the punishment of Genesis 9:6 would apply as the thief life was valued . So even after the command in Exodus 20:13 God permits the taking of a life if one's own life is in potential danger. While reasonable self-defense is recognized in scripture, value for human life is the rule.

Capital Punishment

Genesis 9:6 God established capital punishment even before giving the law of "Thou shall not kill" to Moses. The punishment in Genesis 9:6 speaks to the severity of the crime. The taking of a life warrants a punishment as in a death for a death. It's not given for vengeance, but for justice and the role of justice is carried out by one specific office, Romans 13:1-6.

Just Wars

In the OT we read that at times God commands battles between nations. These wars were God's hand of justice against the wicked. There is a difference between the act of murder and a death in battle. In the NT the Church is not a nation that goes to war anymore as the kingdom of God is not of this world, John 18:36. We no longer fight for territory or possessions, but the wicked of even today will be punished according to the law God established in Genesis 9:6.

Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. 40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. 41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

….. I wonder if mankind is in a position or has the authority to carry out the death penalty? It's almost a do as I say, not as I do mentality.

Yes, Romans 13 God has ordained the government and the gov't has the right to carry out punishment against wrong doers including life in prison, death penalty etc.

Cain committed murder angainst innocent person and not comparable to the gov't carrying out punishment against wrong doers

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Thanks for bringing up such good examples WIP.
I didn't think of them.....
Jesus was God and He stopped the stoning of the adulterous woman.
This was representative of what type of person He was and what He believed.

The background was that they were trying to get Jesus commit a wrong in order to have something to accuse Him, John 8:6. If I remember correctly, under the OT law both the man and women caught in adultery were to be taken before the elders/judges of the city (along with witnesses) a trail held and the judges made a ruling. This did not happen in John 8 with the woman therefore Jesus would not go against the law Himself and condemn her. Even though Jesus did not condemn her, Jesus said nothing here, or elsewhere, about stopping the death penalty against certain crimes.