Deborah13
Member
:nod
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?
- Thread starter Kathi
- Start date
:nod
Chopper
Member
One is to log in everyone who is born, and has the potential to have eternal life. (Book of life).
The Lambs book of life is when the person who is in the book of life gets saved, their name goes out of the book of life and into the Lambs Book of life.
Gary
Member
I'm very sorry Gary, :blushI have been having a little trouble with thoughts lately. Reba has been praying for me about that, bless her heart. I had a stroke a while back and the bleed messed with my mind.2 When I first saw your post I thought it was the Lambs book of life, which when your name is entered there, it will never be taken out.
The book of life is another story. I understand that everyone who is born, their name is entered. The word life implies that they have the opportunity to have eternal life. If they get saved, their name goes into the Lambs book of life. If the person whose name is in the Book of life, and they don't overcome and get saved, their name is taken out. Potentially they are destined for eternal life because God is not willing that any perish, therefore they potentially have white robes and their names written down. Not saved? no robe, no name.
Sorry I got mixed up.
I understand. No need to apologize. We all misread things. I've done it a million times and sometimes responded to those misreadings.
We're good.
.
Chopper
Member
I understand. No need to apologize. We all misread things. I've done it a million times and sometimes responded to those misreadings.
We're good.
.
Thanks Buddy, at my age most anything can and does happen.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I don't think the majority of believers purposely do what they do in order to rationalize popular doctrines in the church.
Jethro Bodine
Member
The scriptures perhaps?
I used to think the change meant the church had grown progressively in it's understanding. I don't anymore.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Remember the good ol' days when 'mod' meant something else? Those good ol' days are older than me, but I read about them in Mad Magazine in the '70s. (Modern...for those of you who aren't old enough to know......or didn't read Mad Magazine).
Jethro Bodine
Member
But anyway......
OSAS is touted as the doctrine of salvation that gives security of God's grace, and that non-OSAS doesn't . I used to believe that until it was pointed out to me how really INsecure the doctrine of OSAS is to those who struggle in their believing.
When someone fails and we tell them, "well, that shows you were never saved to begin with", is this person supposed to then go back to what they fell from not knowing how or why their repentance is really going to be true salvation this time around? IOW, you never know if your faith is the real thing. It may be the worst thing you can say to a struggling person.
Security in non-OSAS comes from your faith. If you continue in faith, you have the assurance of God's promise of salvation. Because faith is how the promise is secured. Plain and simple.
OSAS is touted as the doctrine of salvation that gives security of God's grace, and that non-OSAS doesn't . I used to believe that until it was pointed out to me how really INsecure the doctrine of OSAS is to those who struggle in their believing.
When someone fails and we tell them, "well, that shows you were never saved to begin with", is this person supposed to then go back to what they fell from not knowing how or why their repentance is really going to be true salvation this time around? IOW, you never know if your faith is the real thing. It may be the worst thing you can say to a struggling person.
Security in non-OSAS comes from your faith. If you continue in faith, you have the assurance of God's promise of salvation. Because faith is how the promise is secured. Plain and simple.
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Deborah13
Member
Charles Spurgeon was a Calvinist preacher, and he believed in OSAS. As you can see in this sermon not all Calvinists think because someone backslides, even miserably that they were never saved to begin with.
Sermon #2569 February 22, 1883
Backslider's Door of Hope - Hosea 2:15
"Once they could, perhaps, speak to others in Christ’s name, but they would be afraid to say a word for Jesus now, for they have gone far astray from Him. The message of infinite mercy to such people is, “Return, you backsliding children!” Come back, come home to your God! There is no other place of rest for you in the whole world—you will be as a bird that wanders from its nest. Sinners may rest content in their sin, for as yet they know no better, but you are disqualified even for that! You have so much knowledge still left and so much of conscience still remains that you are spoiled for this world, spoiled for the pleasures of sin, spoiled for all confidence except the one confidence which you used to have in Christ Jesus your Lord. There is no alternative for you but to return, for you cannot go elsewhere. Therefore, come home to your first Husband—that is God’s own metaphor—for it was better with you then, than now!"
http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols43-45/chs2569.pdf
This site has by Volume Spurgeon's sermons. They are available to download in pdf for free.
This is what I think Peter may have been referring to when he said that if a person were to return to their old ways that they would be worse off then if they had never known the Lord.
I believe that Jesus may have been talking about these very ones that Spurgeon is talking about.
Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
So surely if they are one who has gone astray they must at one time been a part the flock. And I believe that the Lord is more than capable of bringing them back to the safety found only in Him.
Sermon #2569 February 22, 1883
Backslider's Door of Hope - Hosea 2:15
"Once they could, perhaps, speak to others in Christ’s name, but they would be afraid to say a word for Jesus now, for they have gone far astray from Him. The message of infinite mercy to such people is, “Return, you backsliding children!” Come back, come home to your God! There is no other place of rest for you in the whole world—you will be as a bird that wanders from its nest. Sinners may rest content in their sin, for as yet they know no better, but you are disqualified even for that! You have so much knowledge still left and so much of conscience still remains that you are spoiled for this world, spoiled for the pleasures of sin, spoiled for all confidence except the one confidence which you used to have in Christ Jesus your Lord. There is no alternative for you but to return, for you cannot go elsewhere. Therefore, come home to your first Husband—that is God’s own metaphor—for it was better with you then, than now!"
http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols43-45/chs2569.pdf
This site has by Volume Spurgeon's sermons. They are available to download in pdf for free.
This is what I think Peter may have been referring to when he said that if a person were to return to their old ways that they would be worse off then if they had never known the Lord.
I believe that Jesus may have been talking about these very ones that Spurgeon is talking about.
Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
So surely if they are one who has gone astray they must at one time been a part the flock. And I believe that the Lord is more than capable of bringing them back to the safety found only in Him.
MysticalJourney
Member
Believing in eternal security about 8 years ago was the turning point in my Christian walk. I was constantly trying to work for my salvation, and feeling close to God one day, and unsaved the next. It was a nightmare roller coaster. When I was on about my 25th read through the Bible, God spoke to me very clearly through the Word, that he is the one that saves, and he will keep me.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:8-10.
Yes, I believe in repentance. And when I first believed in eternal security, I thought maybe I had just reached a certain maturity, and felt I would never fall away from God, and it was ok to trust him. Then I began to realize, if I could trust God, that HE saved me, not my works, not my repentance (although I certainly believe in the importance of repentance!) then it was not just about me, but about everyone that God saves, he keeps and will never leave or forsake.
"Be strong and courageous. Do not fear or be in dread of them, for it is the Lord your God who goes with you. He will not leave you or forsake you.”" Deut. 31:5-7
"for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” Hebrews 13:5b.
As I said, since then, I have gone closer to God and grown tremendously in faith, including getting my MDiv. I never thought I was worthy to go to Seminary when God called me the first time in the 1990's. I also see too many people struggling with losing their salvation to think it could possibly be a Biblical doctrine. Either God is sovereign and he saves and keeps us, or God is not in control. Put another way, I cannot save myself, which is what Arminianism basically comes down to. Too bad so many churches today teach this lie from the devil, which has discouraged so many people. Or maybe they never were among us, as 1 John says!
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:8-10.
Yes, I believe in repentance. And when I first believed in eternal security, I thought maybe I had just reached a certain maturity, and felt I would never fall away from God, and it was ok to trust him. Then I began to realize, if I could trust God, that HE saved me, not my works, not my repentance (although I certainly believe in the importance of repentance!) then it was not just about me, but about everyone that God saves, he keeps and will never leave or forsake.
"Be strong and courageous. Do not fear or be in dread of them, for it is the Lord your God who goes with you. He will not leave you or forsake you.”" Deut. 31:5-7
"for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” Hebrews 13:5b.
As I said, since then, I have gone closer to God and grown tremendously in faith, including getting my MDiv. I never thought I was worthy to go to Seminary when God called me the first time in the 1990's. I also see too many people struggling with losing their salvation to think it could possibly be a Biblical doctrine. Either God is sovereign and he saves and keeps us, or God is not in control. Put another way, I cannot save myself, which is what Arminianism basically comes down to. Too bad so many churches today teach this lie from the devil, which has discouraged so many people. Or maybe they never were among us, as 1 John says!
Butch5
Member
But what makes believe they are different books
Butch5
Member
I don't believe that either. Jude said the faith was once handed down.
Butch5
Member
I agree, when one falls it is said they never really believed. However, no one knows the future and if they will fall. It is agued that the man who is walking with Christ today but in 10 years finds a woman, divorces his wife, and spends the rest of his life in an adulterous affair really wasn't saved today. In the reality of the doctrine his salvation today is dependent on his future conduct.
Non OSAS on the other hand has one's salvation dependent on what he does today.
Chopper
Member
The Scripture's reveal two books.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I know this is hard to understand, but not believing in OSAS does NOT mean one believes that justification is by works. That is impossible. It is impossible to work yourself out of the debt of sin we have with God. IMPOSSIBLE.
What non-OSAS means is you are responsible to place your trust in God's forgiveness through the power of faith he gives to do that. Most people choose not to. A few do. A few of them continue in that trusting to the very end and are saved.
As long as your trust lies in Christ's finished work you have the assurance of your salvation and redemption on the Day of Wrath. Stop having trusting in Christ's finished work and you no longer have that assurance. The Bible is crystal clear about this.
Butch5
Member
Hi Chopper,
I don't think I'm getting my point across. Understand one book is mentioned in the OT and one mentioned in the NT. Let me rephrase the question, Why don't you think they are the same book. For instance one man says, "have you read the Bible?" Another man says, "have you read the Holy Bible?" They are both speaking of the same book. It seems to me that this is what we see in the Scriptures, one is the book of life and the other the Lamb's book of life. It seems to me that it is the same book being referred to with slightly different terms. In the OT it was the Lamb to whom they said, "your book"
32 "Yet now, if You will forgive their sin-- but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written."
33 And the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book. (Exo 32:32-33 NKJ)
This is Jesus speaking to Moses, Rev 2 seems to be alluding back to this passage.
What I was trying to find out is if you had a Scriptural reason for understanding the books as two different books. This is something I had considered but was wasn't sure of and didn't find any Scripture to suggest that they were the different books. If you know of any passages of Scripture that would help I'd appreciate it.
Chopper
Member
Tell you what I'll do my friend, Over the weekend, I'll take another look at what the OT and NT has to say about the Book. Hopefully on Monday I'll have an answer. You could be right, and I'll go on that idea.
Gary
Member
They don't just have the "potential", they actually do have eternal life. The Book of Life is what's used at the time of judgment to determine Life or Death.
Revelation 10
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
That would indicate that the Book of Life used at the final judgment is empty. The scripture states that "anyone" who's name is not found in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire. Do you know what that means? Technically, it means that "everyone" will suffer the Second Death. Not one soul will be saved.
The "Book of Life" and the "Lambs Book of Life" are the same Book.
.
Chopper
Member
You may be right. As I told Butch, I'm going to re-study both OT & NT references of the "book" I love it when what I've been taught may be tradition of men rather plain teaching of the Word of God. WE WILL SEE. Actually I'm on your side. It could very well be that in the OT, the book of life, and then NT recognizing salvation thru Christ, it changes to Lambs book of life.