Deborah13
Member
So maybe you could explain, in the detail, what Jesus work on the cross means to you.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?
- Thread starter Kathi
- Start date
So maybe you could explain, in the detail, what Jesus work on the cross means to you.
Deborah13
Member
In the OT there was a book of life where Moses kept track of the births and deaths of the Israels.
He does mention a book of life when talking to God, I believe.
My interested in what you come up with Chopper.
Gary
Member
Moses, when pleading with God, calls the book, "Your Book".
Exodus 32
32 Yet now, if You will forgive their sin—but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written.”
33 And the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
David refers to it simply as the Book of the Living.
Psalm 69
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,
And not be written with the righteous.
All the same book in my opinion.
.
As I read and follow along in this thread and others on the topic of OSAS, I seem to be recognizing a single common difference. Those in the OSAS camp believe that once one has been saved, it is absolute and final. Those not of the OSAS camp believe that it is possible for a person to “walk” away from what has transpired.
One thing that I see in common between both camps is both believe Romans 8:38-39 to be absolutely true.
“For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Here’s where I see the two camps separating. The OSAS camp would add or clarify the above text by adding, “not even we ourselves” to the list of things that cannot separate us. Don’t misunderstand. I’m not suggesting that the OSAS camp is adding to scripture. Absolutely not!
The scary part about the OSAS view for me is that for it to hold ground requires the knowledge or understanding that being able to walk away implies not having been saved in the first place. This is unsettling and frightening. But then it could very well be the truth and if it is, it could be a reality slap and sometimes the truth hurts.
Another scary part of the OSAS view to me is the thought that persons in this camp may possibly be prone to rest on that knowledge and take for granted the gift of God thinking in their own minds they are saved when in fact they may not be. So going on that belief they become complacent. I'm not speaking of works salvation here because I believe good works are the result of a living faith in Jesus. What I'm talking about is similar to how I understand James when he wrote chapter 2 verses 17 and 18.
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."
In whatever camp we choose to place ourselves I don’t think we should ever rest or allow ourselves to become complacent as Paul wrote in Philippians 2:12, “work out our salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God that works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
One thing that I see in common between both camps is both believe Romans 8:38-39 to be absolutely true.
“For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Here’s where I see the two camps separating. The OSAS camp would add or clarify the above text by adding, “not even we ourselves” to the list of things that cannot separate us. Don’t misunderstand. I’m not suggesting that the OSAS camp is adding to scripture. Absolutely not!
The scary part about the OSAS view for me is that for it to hold ground requires the knowledge or understanding that being able to walk away implies not having been saved in the first place. This is unsettling and frightening. But then it could very well be the truth and if it is, it could be a reality slap and sometimes the truth hurts.
Another scary part of the OSAS view to me is the thought that persons in this camp may possibly be prone to rest on that knowledge and take for granted the gift of God thinking in their own minds they are saved when in fact they may not be. So going on that belief they become complacent. I'm not speaking of works salvation here because I believe good works are the result of a living faith in Jesus. What I'm talking about is similar to how I understand James when he wrote chapter 2 verses 17 and 18.
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."
In whatever camp we choose to place ourselves I don’t think we should ever rest or allow ourselves to become complacent as Paul wrote in Philippians 2:12, “work out our salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God that works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
otherἑτέραetera2087otherof uncertain origin
created thing, κτίσιςktisis2937creation (the act or the product)from ktizó
New International Version
neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
New Living Translation
No power in the sky above or in the earth below--indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord
.English Standard Version
nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
New American Standard Bible
nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
We are covered in the phrase “nor anything else in all creation”. This phrase literally means “any created thing”. Since we are a “created thing” we are included. To exclude us the phrase would have to read “nor anything else in all creation except us.”
Perseverance of the Saints says," they were not really saved if they didn't continue in the faith." Not eternal security. Eternal security says that," Yes, some will grow complacent, walk away,take the gift for granted but they will have SHAME at the judgement seat of Christ(Bema) and a life of divine discipline and possibly the sin unto death."
1 Cor 5:5~~I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Cor 3:15~~If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer(Great) loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Jethro Bodine
Member
We know from the law that the debt that must be paid for capital sin is the life of the person who committed those sins. Now I can pay that price if I want too, and that would certainly satisfy God's justice. But God has offered mankind forgiveness for those sins for anyone who wants it. But God is still just. He does not let the sin go unpunished but, because he loves us, lays the just penalty and cost of that sin on his own Son, Jesus Christ.
Now as long as I keep trusting in that forgiveness for my sin debt it will continually be applied to the sacrifice of Jesus that God himself provided to absorb the guilt and penalty of that sin. But if I stop trusting in that forgiveness, nothing is left to minister before God on my behalf, so I must now pay the just penalty for my sins myself on the Day of Wrath.
Not a stitch of works in that. Justification is secured entirely on the basis of having your sin guilt forgiven, not worked away, as if that's possible anyway. The obligation of the person who has been freely forgiven his debt of sin is to turn away from that which condemned him in the first place with gratitude and thanksgiving and appreciation. And if he does fail out of weakness to do that, as long as he keeps trusting in the blood to cleanse him, he will be covered by the blood. But if a person fails because they no longer have gratitude and thankfulness or fear of God concerning sin, and as a result stop trusting in the blood to absorb their sin guilt for them, they will be denied by Christ on the Day of Reckoning, just as they have denied him. He will no longer act as attorney for the defendant (you) on that Day. How can he? You rejected his work as that which can cleanse you of sin guilt.
Works ultimately are the measure of this faith in the work of Christ to purchase your redemption. Works are how we can tell if you have faith in Christ's work, and are continuing in his work. Our works save in that sense, just as James and others teach.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
But we know from the whole counsel of scripture that 'nor anything else in creation' does not include the person themselves and their will to believe and continue to believe.
Just as in our own human courts, the evidence that is more compelling is the evidence that takes precedence over less compelling evidence. In this case, the fact that the Bible plainly speaks of no longer having the hope of salvation, and what will happen as a result, is so compelling it's impossible to introduce 'nor any other created thing' as evidence that Paul meant even the person themselves.
And, the 1 Corinthian passage is about Paul, and other workers in the fields and buildings of God, losing the benefit of their work, that is, in Paul's case, the Corinthians themselves. He will most certainly enter into the kingdom, but if he fails to bring them in to he will have nothing to show for his labor. It's simply not a OSAS passage. He's simply showing the Corinthians that he has nothing to gain, but lot's to lose, by somehow delivering them a gospel that can not save them. He will be saved, but that's all. He will have no crown of fellow believers, that he himself led to the Lord, in the kingdom.
Chopper
Member
Being that I'm a four point Calvinist, and because I am elected by God before the foundation of the earth, I can in no way loose what God has predetermined! NO WAY!! Almighty God is the source of my salvation and the reason that I'll never loose what He has determined to take place. PERIOD!
Chopper
Member
OK Butch and Gary you are absolutely right. It is the same book. I was taught that the book of life was a book that all living beings had their name in that book, and when they died, their name was taken out. And the Lambs book of life was something altogether different. In my exam today, I found that they are the same book, period! So as for the Baptist tradition I give the Chinese chant. pheuy, pheuy pheuy!
Deborah13
Member
Chopper, you're awesome, especially for an old guy. And that's coming from an old gal, pretty set in her ways.
Love you, brother Chopper
God Bless you.
Why would a sovereign and omniscient God,who knows the end from the beginning, write a name in The Book of Life when He knows He will only have to erase it when that person eventually denies his faith?
Revelation 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Revelation 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Deborah13
Member
Good point, Kathi.
That's why I ask, what did these ones overcome and how did they do that?
Gary
Member
Awesome.I can't give you a "Like" so I'll give you one of these.
This is what iron sharpening iron looks like.
.
Chopper
Member
Thanks Deb! Old rules!!
Chopper
Member
I can't give you a "Like" so I'll give you one of these.
This is what iron sharpening iron looks like.
.
Thanks my friend, and thanks for the snoopy.
Gary
Member
Here's something to ponder.
What if people are born with their names already in the Book of Life and if a name is to be blotted out, it isn't removed until that individual takes his/her final breath?
2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Think about it.
.
God keeps good records.He knows His own.He knows who will be saved and who will not even before we are born.After all He is God
.Do you think that God is going to make a mistake?"OOPS,they were not saved afterall like I thought they would be".The names of the saved have always been written in the Book of Life.They will written in the Book permanently.I agree. I think everybody had their name written in the book of life before the foundation of the world. It gets removed at death if one has never believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.
I can kind of see Choppers "it is 2 different books" Because it is one thing in eternity past and it is something different in eternity future. The same book though.
We will care. It is our Lords Book, and we will probably be in Book of Life 101 for the first trillion years or so in Heaven. Then on to a trillion years of Book of Life 102. And we will enjoy every second of it.:yes