Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[Chopper]

I have always taught that when a person understands what the Christ's death on the Cross meant for this person, like forgiveness of sin (original) and life sins, repentance, and receiving Christ Jesus as Lord (Master Owner) and the life that is required of him, and he accepts it all and requests Jesus to save him, HE IS SAVED and if his life demonstrates this change, he will never loose what Jesus did for him!

We all know of professing Christians whose lives show no change, but go to church and so forth, they will be in the great apostasy and the issue is not will they loose their Salvation, because they were never saved to begin with.

 

[Deborah13]

Yeah, that's the real issue. We have examples in the Scriptures of people who turned away that's what amazes me that this doctrine even exists.

Can you give scripture where someone turned away and the scripture clearly says that they did that and that they were true believers.
Not an "if then statement" but an actual example?
I am not saying it is not there, so please do misunderstand me and think I am just challenging you.

 

[turnorburn]

Then there's the statement i heard the other day, this guy said his church cleansed us from sin..

tob

 

[Butch5]

Can you give scripture where someone turned away and the scripture clearly says that they did that and that they were true believers.
Not an "if then statement" but an actual example?
I am not saying it is not there, so please do misunderstand me and think I am just challenging you.

Hi Deb,

Actually, yes, Paul speaks of this to Timothy about the order of widows.

11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
15 For some are already turned aside after Satan. (1Ti 5:11-15 KJV)

I also believe this passage is pretty clear.

18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. (1Ti 1:18-20 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

I have always taught that when a person understands what the Christ's death on the Cross meant for this person, like forgiveness of sin (original) and life sins, repentance, and receiving Christ Jesus as Lord (Master Owner) and the life that is required of him, and he accepts it all and requests Jesus to save him, HE IS SAVED and if his life demonstrates this change, he will never loose what Jesus did for him!

We all know of professing Christians whose lives show no change, but go to church and so forth, they will be in the great apostasy and the issue is not will they loose their Salvation, because they were never saved to begin with.

But when Jesus spoke of the Great apostasy He said their love would grow cold. Wouldn't they be saved if they loved the Lord?

 

[for_his_glory]

I use to believe once saved always saved, but got a new insight to this. Matthew 10:22; 24:13; Rev 2:10 all say that to those who endure unto the end are those who will be saved. The end of what you might ask, the end of all the trials and tribulations we face daily in this word of evil wickedness that surrounds us and will wax worse and worse until Jesus returns and calls His Bride to meet Him in the air, 1 Thessalonians 4. Those whose faith in Christ is weak as they never allow it to mature or build upon it will be more inclined to curse God (blasphemy) from their heart and completely turn away from Him denouncing God in their lives when not trusting God in all things when they face the trials and tribulations of this world and actually blame God for their torments.


Philippians Chapter Two gives us insight on how to endure by allowing ourselves to be humbled before the Father in all humility. Many come to the alter, but soon waver from it, but it is those who come to the alter of grace and are truly sealed by the Holy Spirit and remain in the will of God through obedience to His word by applying it to their lives knowing that even when we face the evil of this world God is right there with us as we run the race that is set before us, Hebrews 12:1,2.


When we first accept Christ as our Lord and Savior through pure repentance we are only at that time saved or delivered from our past sins as we begin our personal relationship with Jesus and true faith that is Christ will lead us into Gods righteousness as we have been Spiritually renewed, John 3:3-7, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.


The only thing that can separate us from the love of God is blasphemy against His Holy Spirit which means coming against God and anyone who is truly sealed by His Spirit will not want to come against Him, but draw even closer to Him.


Ephesians 4:30 and grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Romans 8:

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?


36 As it is written, for thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.


37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.


38 for I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,


39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[WIP]

The OSAS argument doesn't. No one that I've seen argue against OSAS questions God's ability to save. What they question is man's faithfulness. The real question is, can man change his mind.

I am on the fence with OSAS. I see the arguments on both sides and they all make sense. There is plenty of scripture that supports OSAS as well as scripture that indicates that it must be possible to fall away or perhaps walk away. Like you wrote here, Butch, I also see a concern that the opposition has for their OSAS supporting brothers and sisters. It's a concern that OSAS supporters can take salvation for granted. I think that's how I want to say it.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

"IF WE ARE UNFAITHFUL"

This is talking about faithful behavior, not trusting in Christ's forgiveness. But let's use it as if it's talking about the faith of salvation itself to illustrate what non-OSAS says.

This is what non-OSAS says. You must have faith to the end to be saved by that faith. Even the quote you use above is saying that. God's response is conditioned on our faith. It's an 'if' proposition.

Let's look at another portion of that passage:

"If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." (2 Timothy 2:12-13 NASB)

See? If you reject Jesus' forgiveness outright, God will reject you outright. Contrast that with continuing to believe and trust in Christ, but falling into faithless living (which we can all relate to). You don't lose your salvation over that...unless, it represents what Paul just said--a denial of Christ altogether.

This is why I say that the only sin that can rob you of the promise is the sin that represents an outright rejection of the gospel. Which the Bible more than suggests is possible for the saved person to do. The sin we commit in our daily growing up into Christ does not separate us from the promise. He remains faithful to us even we are not faithful. But he denies us if we trample down and deny trust in God for the forgiveness of sin altogether.

God is our faith coach. There's no question that without his guidance, his counsel, his power to strengthen our faith, we would not endure in our believing. But that hardly means we've lost the choice to willingly decide we like sin better than the forgiveness of God.

God's job is to strenghten our believing, not do our believing for us. Did God do your believing for you when you got saved? Did he move heaven and earth so you could do your own believing? Most certainly.



He won't let us down, and he won't let us go. That hardly means we won't want that good work to continue in us. This is the fundamental problem with how the church interprets these 'God is able and willing' scriptures that get used to defend OSAS.



Okay, good. I was hoping we could go here.

Show me where the 'work' of believing in Christ is among the works that Paul says can not justify. How did the church decide that the believing that Paul says does justify--which he contrasts with the doing of righteous things in the law that can not justify--is really among the works that he says can not justify? Someone please explain this to me. My Bible says believing is how I am justified--the only way to be justified. But the church says even my choosing to believe the gospel is really a damnable work of self.



Salvation is from God. No question about it. We can't produce it in ourselves. But how does that mean my work of believing in God's forgiveness somehow makes that forgiveness from me, and not God? Explain.

What?
Are you speaking english?
Give me a month or so to decypher what you're saying here.

 

[Butch5]

I am on the fence with OSAS. I see the arguments on both sides and they all make sense. There is plenty of scripture that supports OSAS as well as scripture that indicates that it must be possible to fall away or perhaps walk away. Like you wrote here, Butch, I also see a concern that the opposition has for their OSAS supporting brothers and sisters. It's a concern that OSAS supporters can take salvation for granted. I think that's how I want to say it.

Hi WIP,

I've been discussing this issue for years and have investigated the passages that used to support OSAS. When those passages are understood in the context in which they were written it becomes clear that they are not supporting OSAS. The reason there appears to be support for OSAS in the Scriptures is because Christians are taught to proof text. A Christian will take a passage of Scripture such as,

5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. (Heb 13:5 KJV)
and say, see, He will never leave us. However, they don't go back to the quotation and see what the context was that it was written in. He is the context of that quotation.

KJV Joshua 1:1 Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying,
2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel.
3 Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses.
4 From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast.
5 There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee. (Jos 1:1-5 KJV)

The quote was made to Joshua that God would never leave him, however, God gave additional information about this.

KJV Joshua 7:1 But the children of Israel committed a trespass in the accursed thing: for Achan, the son of Carmi, the son of Zabdi, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took of the accursed thing: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against the children of Israel.
2 And Joshua sent men from Jericho to Ai, which is beside Bethaven, on the east side of Bethel, and spake unto them, saying, Go up and view the country. And the men went up and viewed Ai.
3 And they returned to Joshua, and said unto him, Let not all the people go up; but let about two or three thousand men go up and smite Ai; and make not all the people to labour thither; for they are but few.
4 So there went up thither of the people about three thousand men: and they fled before the men of Ai.
5 And the men of Ai smote of them about thirty and six men: for they chased them from before the gate even unto Shebarim, and smote them in the going down: wherefore the hearts of the people melted, and became as water.
6 And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the LORD until the eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads.
7 And Joshua said, Alas, O Lord GOD, wherefore hast thou at all brought this people over Jordan, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us? would to God we had been content, and dwelt on the other side Jordan!
8 O Lord, what shall I say, when Israel turneth their backs before their enemies!
9 For the Canaanites and all the inhabitants of the land shall hear of it, and shall environ us round, and cut off our name from the earth: and what wilt thou do unto thy great name?
10 And the LORD said unto Joshua, Get thee up; wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face?
11 Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also, and they have put it even among their own stuff.
12 Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you.
13 Up, sanctify the people, and say, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow: for thus saith the LORD God of Israel, There is an accursed thing in the midst of thee, O Israel: thou canst not stand before thine enemies, until ye take away the accursed thing from among you.
14 In the morning therefore ye shall be brought according to your tribes: and it shall be, that the tribe which the LORD taketh shall come according to the families thereof; and the family which the LORD shall take shall come by households; and the household which the LORD shall take shall come man by man.
15 And it shall be, that he that is taken with the accursed thing shall be burnt with fire, he and all that he hath: because he hath transgressed the covenant of the LORD, and because he hath wrought folly in Israel.
16 So Joshua rose up early in the morning, and brought Israel by their tribes; and the tribe of Judah was taken: (Jos 7:1-16 KJV)

We can see from the context that the statement wasn't unconditional. The statement, 'I will never leave you nor forsake you' was conditioned on Israel's continuance in the covenant they had entered into with God.

We can do this same thing with passage after passage that is quoted in supposed support of OSAS.

 

[Gary]

Revelation 3
5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.


Having ones name in the Book of Life translates to being saved.

Christs' mention of blotting out names is a clear indication that one can become unsaved. If it were not possible to become unsaved, why would Christ make that comment?

Think about it.
.

 

[Chopper]

Revelation 3
5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.


Having ones name in the Book of Life translates to being saved.

Christs' mention of blotting out names is a clear indication that one can become unsaved. If it were not possible to become unsaved, why would Christ make that comment?

Think about it.
.

Gary, the fact that Jesus will not blot out a name is an indication that OSAS! The Scripture, in an odd way I must confess, reafirms that once a person is Biblically saved, there will never be a point when Jesus refuses that person.

 

[mondar]

In your argument you are assuming 'regeneration' is already considered something permanent. Instead of realizing that the argument itself is, 'is regeneration permanent'. You can't use what you think is the answer to the argument to prove the argument.

Why should I not assume regeneration is permanent. Where in the bible was anyone unregenerated, unjustified, unredeemed, etc?

But anyway, the answer to your question is faith is what regenerates our spirits. And faith must continue for us to remain regenerate.

Replies like this one is the reason I suggest that many views of salvation are inconsistent with salvation by grace alone. It would have been correct to say that we will always have faith because we have been regenerated, but our regeneration does not depend upon our faith since faith itself is a gift (Phil 1:29).

But Christ said the kingdom is like the slave who had his debt reinstated because he refused to offer the same forgiveness/ mercy he himself had received from the King to his fellow slave, and that is how Jesus' heavenly Father will treat each of us if we do the same. Or is that just another one of those teachings in the Bible that really doesn't mean what it so plainly says? We have a lot of those in the church today.

Thus the charge of works salvation.

As has been pointed out by MarkT, branches that don't produce fruit are broken out of Jesus. I can't help but to think that what you are saying is another one of the church's 'the Bible doesn't really mean what it says' doctrines.

LOL, such a nasty accusation. I doubt you did much thinking about that one.

Right, the ministry of Christ will never fail. It's impossible for it to fail. But it is applied for our benefit through our faith. We can't stay under the power of Christ's ministry if the faith that gives you access to that ministry fails.

Faith is a gift (Phil 1:29)
If Faith fails then the source of faith, God, failed.

"4 This inheritance is kept in heaven for you,5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:4-5 NASB)

So the argument is, 'can saving faith fail'. OSAS is only true if you can prove that a believer's faith can never fail.

Since no person can generate faith (John 6:44) and faith is the gift of God (Phil 1:29) then if faith fails, God failed.

 

[reba]

Which has more power your sin or the Blood of Christ?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Which has more power your sin or the Blood of Christ?

According to some people writing in this thread, your sin has more power.

 

[Northman]

For most all those in Christ, the idea of turning is unfathomable. The idea that one would reject the love of our Lord is completely loony. Not a single one here would deny that concept. The part that this sort of mind-set cant see is that there actually are people that get fed up with Jesus. We have all experienced testing and ultimately we trust. There are some however that simply throw in the towel and quit. They know full well what they are doing and want to live life their own way.

This isnt akin to the life of david or anything like that where we see screw up after screw up and yet God is still there. This is not a life of pain that Jesus cant save someone from. This is not about sin being greater than the One who sacrificed for it. This is everything about self. None of us can fathom eternity, even though the words are made plain. Some just really dont care, no matter how preposterous that seems.

This thing has happened within my own family. The fruit was there, for a long time. Now its not. Try to talk about God and they dont want to hear it, almost fearfully. Deep down they know whats coming, they just want to do what they want to do without restraint. Sound retarded? Without a doubt.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

John 10:28;
"And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand".

The key issue here is who does the saving.
If man is responsible for salvation then he can be lost.
If God is responsible for salvation, then it is forever secure.

1 John 2:1;
Jesus is our advocate when we sin, no matter what the sin is.

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Deb,

Actually, yes, Paul speaks of this to Timothy about the order of widows.

11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
15 For some are already turned aside after Satan. (1Ti 5:11-15 KJV)

I also believe this passage is pretty clear.

18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. (1Ti 1:18-20 KJV)

I don't agree that Paul is saying that they are turning away from their faith in Christ in 1 Tim. 5:11-15. I would suggest looking at the Greek for the word "wanton". Also when it says 'damnation' how are they damned. Damnation does not always mean loss of salvation. Finally, what first faith is this speaking of, in context. If it is faith in Christ, faith in Christ for what?

As far as the second scripture I think we can look to what Paul said to the church at Corinth., I believe it was, about the man involved in the affair with his father wife. Turn him over to Satan so that is soul may be saved.

v19 is an interesting statement and I think I need more time with it. Because what was put away? faith or good conscience.

 

[Northman]

John 10:28;
"And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand".

Thats what i was saying, there is no snatching. They are getting off the bus on thier own accord.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

1 Peter 5:10;
"And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast".
Another assurance that God will never let go of me, no matter what.

Once saved, always saved!

Amen!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Christs' mention of blotting out names is a clear indication that one can become unsaved. If it were not possible to become unsaved, why would Christ make that comment?

It seems to not matter that Christ has spoken so clearly in the scriptures.

This is how an indoctrination works:

A person reads the plain words of scripture, the mind goes numb, the eyes get glazed over, and the conclusion of the matter is the passage does not really mean what it's saying because it contradicts what they already think is true.

How do I know this? I'm human, too, and have been under the power of an indoctrination.