Predestination

[jasonc]

That’s funny one time I used to read gas meter for Southern California, gas Co.
Head out towards the Bishop and they have museum and artifacts with the background of a movie set

Locally a blast from the past .I remember much of what stood there and will date it

 

[Iconoclast]

Do you read the NT in Koine Greek?
If not then you're using a commentary.

If you want to speak about Romans, post it in English and we'll give it a go.
I don't need to know it in Greek - I trust the translators even though some word may be different,
the main thrust is the same.

And I speak romance languages so I know what I'm talking about.
And let's stop discussing the Greek. It's a waste of time UNLESS a word is really important.

Like the word DRAW.
In Enlgish DRAW is used...
In Greek and other romance languages there are different words to explain DRAW which are lost in the English.

Let's discuss the bible and not languages.

You are ADDING to scripture.

This is what YOU posted:
Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton.
“by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”)

WHERE does that sentence state that sin is IMPUTED to mankind?
It says that all men HAVE SINNED.

Quite a difference. Sinning and BEING IMPUTED sin are totally different.
Please reply to that.
The Greek says exactly the same.

Not understanding the fall into sin and death has led to this series of errors posted here. So many errors here. I will deal with them on the errors thread.

 

[Iconoclast]

You know, you're very condescending.

No...just answering you as you do to me!

What do you know what I've studied?
HOW DOES A BABY SIN?

I have supplied the answer that you reject.

You should find out the difference between sinning and being IMPUTED WITH SIN.
Perhaps you've never been taught this?

I know the exact meaning because I understand the passage and federal headship.

And you think you understand the aorist tense.
That's pretty funny.
The aorist tense has nothing to do with WHEN something happened....

Here are real greek scholars;
The aorist tense here is referred to as "timeless aorist" which gathers up the whole human race for all time into this condemnation (see also A T Robertson). There are no exceptions save Christ Jesus as Paul has made clear in the preceding indictment in (Ro 1:18-3:20)

Godet agrees writing that the aorist tense "transports us to the point of time when the result of human life appears as a completed fact, the hour of judgment." (The Epistle of St Paul to the Romans - Chapter 3)

MacDonald writes that the aorist tense pictures the fact that "Everybody sinned in Adam; when he sinned, he acted as the representative for all his descendants. But men are not only sinners by nature; they are also sinners by practice. (Borrow Believer's Bible Commentary)

Leon Morris - The aorist pictures this as past, but also as a completion. It certainly does not mean that sin belongs wholly in the past, for Paul goes on to a present tense when he says fall short of the glory of God. Elsewhere in Romans the glory is often future (Ro 2:7, 10; 5:2; 8:18, 21). But there is also a present glory, for God “made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ” (2 Cor. 4:6; cf. 2 Cor. 3:18; John 17:22). But this is something Christ produces in believers. Sinners fall short of it. Not only did all sin in the past, but they continually come short of God’s glory. (Borrow The Epistle to the Romans. Grand Rapids)

Vincent writes that the aorist tense means "looking back to a thing definitely past — the historic occurrence of sin."

Remember that men and women sin because we are sinners by nature. A plum tree bears plums because it is a plum tree. The fruit is the result of its nature. Sin is the fruit of a sinful heart. “The heart is deceitful above all things” (Jer 17:9).

When a person wants to avoid truth they say anything

Greek: Dia touto hosper di' enos anthropou e hamartia eis ton kosmon eiselthen (3SAAI) kai dia tes hamartias o thanatos, kai houtos eis pantas anthropous o thanatos dielthen, (3SAAI) eph o pantes hemarton (3PAAI)

Amplified: Therefore, as sin came into the world through one man, and death as the result of sin, so death spread to all men, [no one being able to stop it or to escape its power] because all men sinned. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)

NLT: When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. (NLT - Tyndale House)

Phillips: This, then, is what happened. Sin made its entry into the world through one man, and through sin, death. The entail of sin and death passed on to the whole human race, and no one could break it for no one was himself free from sin. (Phillips: Touchstone)

Wuest: Wherefore, as through the intermediate agency of one man the aforementioned sin entered the world, and through this sin, death; and thus into and throughout all mankind death entered, because all sinned. (Eerdmans)

Young's Literal: because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;

 

[GodsGrace]

Not understanding the fall into sin and death has led to this series of errors posted here. So many errors here. I will deal with them on the errors thread.

I don't know I.

I posted this:
This is what YOU posted:
Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton.
“by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”)

WHERE does that sentence state that sin is IMPUTED to mankind?
It says that all men HAVE SINNED.

And you answer with a diatribe about the fall and all the mistakes I posted, which was not about the fall per se.
Can't wait to see your list.

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't know I.

I posted this:
This is what YOU posted:
Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton.
“by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”)

WHERE does that sentence state that sin is IMPUTED to mankind?

As By ONE MAN...that would be the first Adam
sin entered into the world.....W...where did it enter? Did it do anything? Did it affect anyone else? Did it affect you and I?
That one sin was the cause of all of it, even if we did not do the same exact sin...his sin and penalty was imputed to all the world...why ...FOR ALL SINNED.....ALL MANKIND SINNED IN HIM.

It says that all men HAVE SINNED.

And you answer with a diatribe about the fall and all the mistakes I posted, which was not about the fall per se.
Can't wait to see your list.

You scoffed and said the Aorist tense here has nothing to do with time,lol
It has everything to do with it. It was a past action at one point in time ,with a continuing ,on going result.

 

[GodsGrace]

As By ONE MAN...that would be the first Adam
sin entered into the world.....W...where did it enter? Did it do anything? Did it affect anyone else? Did it affect you and I?
That one sin was the cause of all of it, even if we did not do the same exact sin...his sin and penalty was imputed to all the world...why ...FOR ALL SINNED.....ALL MANKIND SINNED IN HIM.

You scoffed and said the Aorist tense here has nothing to do with time,lol
It has everything to do with it. It was a past action at one point in time ,with a continuing ,on going result.

Must say good night, but:

Scoffed? I'm trying to tell you we don't need Greek in this case, and in hardly any.
I sent instruction for the aorist tense. Let's stop discussing it.

By one man sin entered the world.
OK
Are we affected by it?
YES. Adam was the federal headship for all humans, so his sinning affected all of us.

It AFFECTED all of us.
We are all born depraved and with the sin nature.
WE WILL ALL SIN.
WE WILL ALL DIE EVEN PHYSICALLY.
All men sin.
Indeed we do.

But the imputation of sin is different
We are AFFECTED by Adam's sin, but we are not PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for it.

We're only responsible for our own sins.

I gave a few verses. Can't do any better and we're just repeating.

Tomorrow.

 

[Iconoclast]

Must say good night, but:

Scoffed? I'm trying to tell you we don't need Greek in this case, and in hardly any.
I sent instruction for the aorist tense. Let's stop discussing it.

By one man sin entered the world.
OK
Are we affected by it?
YES. Adam was the federal headship for all humans, so his sinning affected all of us.

It AFFECTED all of us.
We are all born depraved and with the sin nature.
WE WILL ALL SIN.
WE WILL ALL DIE EVEN PHYSICALLY.
All men sin.
Indeed we do.

But the imputation of sin is different
We are AFFECTED by Adam's sin, but we are not PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for it.

We're only responsible for our own sins.

I gave a few verses. Can't do any better and we're just repeating.

Tomorrow.

okay....here for you; from preceptaustin;
As background remember that there are 3 great imputations in the Bible. To impute something means to place it on another's account so to speak.

(1) Imputation of Adam's sin to his posterity's account or the spiritual account of the entire human race.

(2) Imputation of the sin of the elect to Jesus Christ, Who bore sin's penalty on the Cross (cf 2Cor 5:21)

(3) Imputation of the righteousness of God to the elect (Ro 3:24, 25, 26, Ro 4:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,8)

Romans 5:12 deals with the first imputation, the placing of Adam's sin upon the account of the human race, a doctrine which is fundamental to all theology. In short, in this section Paul teaches that man does evil, because he is evil, and the root cause of the sin problem is what happened millennia ago in the beautiful garden planted by God.
Wiersbe introduces this important, often times poorly understood section, Romans 5:12-21, by asking…

How is it possible for God to save sinners in the person of Jesus Christ? We understand that somehow Christ took our place on the cross, but how was such a substitution possible? Paul answered the question in this section, and these verses are the very heart of the letter.

To understand these verses a few general truths about this section need to be understood. First, note the repetition of the little word one. It is used eleven times. The key idea here is our identification with Adam and with Christ. Second, note the repetition of the word reign which is used five times. Paul saw two men—Adam and Christ—each of them reigning over a kingdom. Finally, note that the phrase much more is repeated five times. This means that in Jesus Christ we have gained much more than we ever lost in Adam!

In short, this section is a contrast of Adam and Christ. Adam was given dominion over the old creation, he sinned, and he lost his kingdom. Because of Adam’s sin, all mankind is under condemnation and death. Christ came as the King over a new creation (2Cor 5:17-see commentary). By His obedience on the cross, He brought in righteousness and justification. Christ not only undid all the damage that Adam’s sin effected, but He accomplished “much more” by making us the very sons of God. Some of this “much more” Paul has already explained in Romans 5:1-11. (Wiersbe, W: Bible Exposition Commentary)

Here is a great resource, for you

Romans 5:12-13 Commentary | Precept Austin

www.preceptaustin.org

 

[GodsGrace]

No...just answering you as you do to me!

I have supplied the answer that you reject.

As you reject my answers to you.

I know the exact meaning because I understand the passage and federal headship.

Here are real greek scholars;
The aorist tense here is referred to as "timeless aorist" which gathers up the whole human race for all time into this condemnation (see also A T Robertson). There are no exceptions save Christ Jesus as Paul has made clear in the preceding indictment in (Ro 1:18-3:20)

Godet agrees writing that the aorist tense "transports us to the point of time when the result of human life appears as a completed fact, the hour of judgment." (The Epistle of St Paul to the Romans - Chapter 3)

MacDonald writes that the aorist tense pictures the fact that "Everybody sinned in Adam; when he sinned, he acted as the representative for all his descendants. But men are not only sinners by nature; they are also sinners by practice. (Borrow Believer's Bible Commentary)

Leon Morris - The aorist pictures this as past, but also as a completion. It certainly does not mean that sin belongs wholly in the past, for Paul goes on to a present tense when he says fall short of the glory of God. Elsewhere in Romans the glory is often future (Ro 2:7, 10; 5:2; 8:18, 21). But there is also a present glory, for God “made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ” (2 Cor. 4:6; cf. 2 Cor. 3:18; John 17:22). But this is something Christ produces in believers. Sinners fall short of it. Not only did all sin in the past, but they continually come short of God’s glory. (Borrow The Epistle to the Romans. Grand Rapids)

So is it the past tense or the present tense?
IS IT referring to time, or to when an EVENT happened?
Notice it states that the event is COMPLETED. It's speaking of an event, NOT WHEN IT HAPPENED.
MacDonald states that the aorist tense pictures that EVERYBODY SINNED IN ADAM...
It's a WHAT not a WHEN.

Vincent writes that the aorist tense means "looking back to a thing definitely past — the historic occurrence of sin."

Right. THE HISTORIC OCCURRENCE OF SIN.
This is a WHAT.

Remember that men and women sin because we are sinners by nature. A plum tree bears plums because it is a plum tree. The fruit is the result of its nature. Sin is the fruit of a sinful heart. “The heart is deceitful above all things” (Jer 17:9).

Agreed.

When a person wants to avoid truth they say anything


Greek: Dia touto hosper di' enos anthropou e hamartia eis ton kosmon eiselthen (3SAAI) kai dia tes hamartias o thanatos, kai houtos eis pantas anthropous o thanatos dielthen, (3SAAI) eph o pantes hemarton (3PAAI)

Amplified: Therefore, as sin came into the world through one man, and death as the result of sin, so death spread to all men, [no one being able to stop it or to escape its power] because all men sinned. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)

NLT: When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. (NLT - Tyndale House)

Phillips: This, then, is what happened. Sin made its entry into the world through one man, and through sin, death. The entail of sin and death passed on to the whole human race, and no one could break it for no one was himself free from sin. (Phillips: Touchstone)

Wuest: Wherefore, as through the intermediate agency of one man the aforementioned sin entered the world, and through this sin, death; and thus into and throughout all mankind death entered, because all sinned. (Eerdmans)

Young's Literal: because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;

Now read each and every one of those verses in different versions,
and point out WHERE it states that WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ADAM'S SIN.

It only states that DEATH has come to all men because SIN ENTERED the world through one man.
And it states that ALL MEN DIE because they have all sinned.

It does NOT say that we are personally responsible for Adam's sin.


Now, I guess I should go to the commentary page of biblehub and post all the commentators I AGREE WITH.
This is why we should stick to the verse in question and not use commentators. They bring their own denomination with them.

This will explain original sin very well, and I'll leave it at this.
We will never agree, although I have posted MANY verses that state we are only responsible for our own sins.
But you do not accept this....You prefer commentaries.

part 1 of 2

So, here we go:

 

[GodsGrace]

2 of 2

Iconoclast


404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".293 By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called "concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

406 The Church's teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine's reflections against Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God's grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam's fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529)296 and at the Council of Trent (1546).297

A hard battle. . .

407 The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man's situation and activity in the world. By our first parents' sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails "captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil".298 Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social action299 and morals.

408 The consequences of original sin and of all men's personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John's expression, "the sin of the world".300 This expression can also refer to the negative influence exerted on people by communal situations and social structures that are the fruit of men's sins.301

409 This dramatic situation of "the whole world [which] is in the power of the evil one"302 makes man's life a battle:



The whole of man's history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God's grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity.303

IV. "YOU DID NOT ABANDON HIM TO THE POWER OF DEATH"

410 After his fall, man was not abandoned by God. On the contrary, God calls him and in a mysterious way heralds the coming victory over evil and his restoration from his fall.304 This passage in Genesis is called the Protoevangelium ("first gospel"): the first announcement of the Messiah and Redeemer, of a battle between the serpent and the Woman, and of the final victory of a descendant of hers.

411 The Christian tradition sees in this passage an announcement of the "New Adam" who, because he "became obedient unto death, even death on a cross", makes amends superabundantly for the disobedience, of Adam.305 Furthermore many Fathers and Doctors of the Church have seen the woman announced in the Protoevangelium as Mary, the mother of Christ, the "new Eve". Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ's victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life.306

412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, "Christ's inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon's envy had taken away."307 And St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, "There is nothing to prevent human nature's being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. Thus St. Paul says, 'Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more'; and the Exsultet sings, 'O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!'"308

IN BRIEF

413 "God did not make death, and he does not delight in the death of the living. . . It was through the devil's envy that death entered the world" (Wis 1:13; 2:24).

414 Satan or the devil and the other demons are fallen angels who have freely refused to serve God and his plan. Their choice against God is definitive. They try to associate man in their revolt against God.

415 "Although set by God in a state of rectitude man, enticed by the evil one, abused his freedom at the very start of history. He lifted himself up against God, and sought to attain his goal apart from him" (GS 13 § 1).

416 By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings.

417 Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called "original sin".

418 As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called "concupiscence").

 

[Iconoclast]

2 of 2

Iconoclast


404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".293 By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called "concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

406 The Church's teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine's reflections against Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God's grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam's fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529)296 and at the Council of Trent (1546).297

A hard battle. . .

407 The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man's situation and activity in the world. By our first parents' sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails "captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil".298 Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social action299 and morals.

408 The consequences of original sin and of all men's personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John's expression, "the sin of the world".300 This expression can also refer to the negative influence exerted on people by communal situations and social structures that are the fruit of men's sins.301

409 This dramatic situation of "the whole world [which] is in the power of the evil one"302 makes man's life a battle:



The whole of man's history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God's grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity.303

IV. "YOU DID NOT ABANDON HIM TO THE POWER OF DEATH"

410 After his fall, man was not abandoned by God. On the contrary, God calls him and in a mysterious way heralds the coming victory over evil and his restoration from his fall.304 This passage in Genesis is called the Protoevangelium ("first gospel"): the first announcement of the Messiah and Redeemer, of a battle between the serpent and the Woman, and of the final victory of a descendant of hers.

411 The Christian tradition sees in this passage an announcement of the "New Adam" who, because he "became obedient unto death, even death on a cross", makes amends superabundantly for the disobedience, of Adam.305 Furthermore many Fathers and Doctors of the Church have seen the woman announced in the Protoevangelium as Mary, the mother of Christ, the "new Eve". Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ's victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life.306

412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, "Christ's inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon's envy had taken away."307 And St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, "There is nothing to prevent human nature's being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. Thus St. Paul says, 'Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more'; and the Exsultet sings, 'O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!'"308

IN BRIEF

413 "God did not make death, and he does not delight in the death of the living. . . It was through the devil's envy that death entered the world" (Wis 1:13; 2:24).

414 Satan or the devil and the other demons are fallen angels who have freely refused to serve God and his plan. Their choice against God is definitive. They try to associate man in their revolt against God.

415 "Although set by God in a state of rectitude man, enticed by the evil one, abused his freedom at the very start of history. He lifted himself up against God, and sought to attain his goal apart from him" (GS 13 § 1).

416 By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings.

417 Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called "original sin".

418 As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called "concupiscence").

Roman Catholic teaching is some truth, mostly error.
If you mix a cup of poison into a good gallon of milk, you get a gallon+ of poison.
The apocryphal books are not scripture. Baptism does not save.

 

[Iconoclast]

As you reject my answers to you.



So is it the past tense or the present tense?
IS IT referring to time, or to when an EVENT happened?
Notice it states that the event is COMPLETED. It's speaking of an event, NOT WHEN IT HAPPENED.
MacDonald states that the aorist tense pictures that EVERYBODY SINNED IN ADAM...
It's a WHAT not a WHEN.



Right. THE HISTORIC OCCURRENCE OF SIN.
This is a WHAT.



Agreed.


Now read each and every one of those verses in different versions,
and point out WHERE it states that WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ADAM'S SIN.

It only states that DEATH has come to all men because SIN ENTERED the world through one man.
And it states that ALL MEN DIE because they have all sinned.

It does NOT say that we are personally responsible for Adam's sin.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,
even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,
who is the figure of him that was to come.

Now, I guess I should go to the commentary page of biblehub and post all the commentators I AGREE WITH.
This is why we should stick to the verse in question and not use commentators. They bring their own denomination with them.

Any commentary is an instrument. They need to be examined. Some are good some are defective.

This will explain original sin very well, and I'll leave it at this.
We will never agree, although I have posted MANY verses that state we are only responsible for our own sins.
But you do not accept this....You prefer commentaries.

I prefer scripture that declares all sinned in Adam. Then we all sin in our personal experience

part 1 of 2

So, here we go:

 

[GodsGrace]

okay....here for you; from preceptaustin;
As background remember that there are 3 great imputations in the Bible. To impute something means to place it on another's account so to speak.




Romans 5:12 deals with the first imputation, the placing of Adam's sin upon the account of the human race, a doctrine which is fundamental to all theology. In short, in this section Paul teaches that man does evil, because he is evil, and the root cause of the sin problem is what happened millennia ago in the beautiful garden planted by God.
Wiersbe introduces this important, often times poorly understood section, Romans 5:12-21, by asking…

Man does evil because he is evil.
Right.
This EVIL is the result, effect, of Adam's sin.
THIS is what Adam passed down to all his descendants, the human race.

Again
Romans 5:12
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Please show me how the above verse states we are imputed with Adam's sin.
It says:
1. Through Adam SIN (not sins) entered into the world.
2. Because of this SIN (the sin nature, or evil as you call it), DEATH came into the world. Physical death.
3. Death spread to all men. We all die physically because of Adam's sin. He broke the preternatural gifts.
4. Death spread to all men because ALL MEN SINNED.
All men sin because they are born evil, with the sin nature.

WHERE does it state we are born with Adam's sin?

I don't usually go on like this, but I feel this is a very important topic.

Here is a great resource, for you

Romans 5:12-13 Commentary | Precept Austin

www.preceptaustin.org

Oh. Another calvinist site.
Don't you realize that you only agree with calvinist sites?
Do you ever read any other Christian sites to get different perspectives?
I read everything I can.

But the bible MUST PREVAIL !

 

[Iconoclast]

Man does evil because he is evil.
Right.
This EVIL is the result, effect, of Adam's sin.
THIS is what Adam passed down to all his descendants, the human race.

Again
Romans 5:12
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

yes agreed in part. we might still have a few differences in understanding, look below.

Please show me how the above verse states we are imputed with Adam's sin.
It says:
1. Through Adam SIN (not sins) entered into the world.

yes

2. Because of this SIN (the sin nature, or evil as you call it), DEATH came into the world. Physical death.

No....spiritual death entered first...God said , in the day you eat...dying thou shalt surely die.
God said in THAT DAY...something died that very day, instantly, Adam died spiritually with physical death to follow years later. W.... we are all born now phyiscally alive, mentally alert, but spititually dead....conceived in Sin, in need of new birth...even babies.

3. Death spread to all men. We all die physically because of Adam's sin. He broke the preternatural gifts.

Yes physical death follows spiritual death, but we all die in Adam

4. Death spread to all men because ALL MEN SINNED.

When Adam sinned, it is as if we were there and sinned. He was the federal head of the human race. all sinned there at that point in time.

All men sin because they are born evil, with the sin nature.

When translators say...all have sinned...they are letting us know, we also sin by our own experience. But original sin is stamped on every person.

WHERE does it state we are born with Adam's sin?

I don't usually go on like this, but I feel this is a very important topic.

W....Moses did not write a *footnote, saying W...here it is:erm the several posts on the aorist tense from romans 3:23 saying all sinned in the garden at this one point in time...tell us.

Oh. Another calvinist site.
Don't you realize that you only agree with calvinist sites?

I have searched for the best sources that are out there. Preceptaustin is one of the best sources on the planet. They include some of the best views anywhere. Not everyone is a Calvinist on that site, but the Calvinists are the strongest because of their grasp of scripture. It is not even close, so why would I spend extra time on weaker theologians

Do you ever read any other Christian sites to get different perspectives?
I read everything I can.

Trust me...I have. The Reformed are miles ahead.

But the bible MUST PREVAIL !

Agreed

 

[GodsGrace]

yes agreed in part. we might still have a few differences in understanding, look below.

yes

No....spiritual death entered first...God said , in the day you eat...dying thou shalt surely die.
God said in THAT DAY...something died that very day, instantly, Adam died spiritually with physical death to follow years later. W.... we are all born now phyiscally alive, mentally alert, but spititually dead....conceived in Sin, in need of new birth...even babies.

Agreed. God said they would surely die, but they did not right away.
Because SPIRITUAL death came first,
then PHYSICAL death many years later.

Yes physical death follows spiritual death, but we all die in Adam

Agreed.

When Adam sinned, it is as if we were there and sinned. He was the federal head of the human race. all sinned there at that point in time.

When translators say...all have sinned...they are letting us know, we also sin by our own experience. But original sin is stamped on every person.

We all sin by our own experience. OK.
So, let's ask:
What is ORIGINAL SIN...

I'm going to post some links...
Hope you read them.
It's not IMPERATIVE to the reformed faith to believe in Original Sin.
You can still believe babies are born saved or lost because of predestination....(you know I disagree with this however).

What the Early Church Believed: Original Sin

As this collection of quotes from early Christian writers demonstrates, the doctrine of Original Sin can be traced to the beginning of Christianity.

www.catholic.com

Original Sin – Early Church Fathers (lll)

As I have shown in the previous two essays, John E. Toews makes a strong case in this book, The Story of Original Sin, that the doctrine of original sin as taught in many churches is not supported by the biblical text.

www.mysteinbach.ca

The following also speaks of Augustine...whose ideas were not in keeping with the early church fathers.

Quotes from the old church fathers where they deny original sin / sinful nature

The pre-Nicene church fathers did not believe in the sinful nature It’s not enough to go back to Luther and Calvin to check the views of the early church, but we must go further back than tha…

bjorkbloggen.com

W....Moses did not write a *footnote, saying W...here it is:erm the several posts on the aorist tense from romans 3:23 saying all sinned in the garden at this one point in time...tell us.

I have searched for the best sources that are out there. Preceptaustin is one of the best sources on the planet. They include some of the best views anywhere. Not everyone is a Calvinist on that site, but the Calvinists are the strongest because of their grasp of scripture. It is not even close, so why would I spend extra time on weaker theologians

Trust me...I have. The Reformed are miles ahead.

Agreed

I also believe I have very good sources.
But I know exactly what you mean by your statements above.
Just want to say that because theologians seem very strong to you does not necessarily mean that their theology is the theology accepted by mainline Christianity.

 

[Iconoclast]

Agreed. God said they would surely die, but they did not right away.
Because SPIRITUAL death came first,
then PHYSICAL death many years later.

Agreed.

We all sin by our own experience. OK.
So, let's ask:
What is ORIGINAL SIN...

I'm going to post some links...
Hope you read them.
It's not IMPERATIVE to the reformed faith to believe in Original Sin.
You can still believe babies are born saved or lost because of predestination....(you know I disagree with this however).

What the Early Church Believed: Original Sin

As this collection of quotes from early Christian writers demonstrates, the doctrine of Original Sin can be traced to the beginning of Christianity.

www.catholic.com

Original Sin – Early Church Fathers (lll)

As I have shown in the previous two essays, John E. Toews makes a strong case in this book, The Story of Original Sin, that the doctrine of original sin as taught in many churches is not supported by the biblical text.

www.mysteinbach.ca

The following also speaks of Augustine...whose ideas were not in keeping with the early church fathers.

Quotes from the old church fathers where they deny original sin / sinful nature

The pre-Nicene church fathers did not believe in the sinful nature It’s not enough to go back to Luther and Calvin to check the views of the early church, but we must go further back than tha…

bjorkbloggen.com

I also believe I have very good sources.
But I know exactly what you mean by your statements above.
Just want to say that because theologians seem very strong to you does not necessarily mean that their theology is the theology accepted by mainline Christianity.

I am working on several things. I will read the links, but Catholic sources come from Catholic teachers who have a works gospel, so error right from the start.
When you read a Catholic source...they use the same words, grace, faith, cross, sacraments, but have a complete different meaning, so it is fatally flawed.
When you go back to these older writers, many have gone over what they taught and exposed the flaws. It is clear to see. At this point in my life, I need to move forward to gather what I need to reach unsaved persons with truth. I will look them over, and show what is error as time permits.
I am writing a book, and also working on the bible study that I go to on Weds.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am working on several things. I will read the links, but Catholic sources come from Catholic teachers who have a works gospel, so error right from the start.
When you read a Catholic source...they use the same words, grace, faith, cross, sacraments, but have a complete different meaning, so it is fatally flawed.
When you go back to these older writers, many have gone over what they taught and exposed the flaws. It is clear to see. At this point in my life, I need to move forward to gather what I need to reach unsaved persons with truth. I will look them over, and show what is error as time permits.
I am writing a book, and also working on the bible study that I go to on Weds.

I use Catholic sources a lot because of three reasons:
1. I know Catholic doctrine and understand the lingo.
2. I like it for the same reason you like reformed theology...it's very comprehensive.
3. I like the Early Fathers because they learned from the Apostles and were "pure" in their teachings...before all the errors set in. IOW, pre 325AD.

There's another member on this forum that believes the CC teaches a works salvation.
This is not true...The CC teaches that we are saved by faith...Ephesians 2:8
Works come AFTER salvation, just like for you or me.
It's so great that you witness a lot. I feel like I don't do this enough, but when I can, I do.
People here are not very open to this and if you're not careful, they just turn you right off.
In the right circumstance, though, they do engage.

Some of those links are very long...

 

[Iconoclast]

Agreed. God said they would surely die, but they did not right away.
Because SPIRITUAL death came first,
then PHYSICAL death many years later.

Agreed.

We all sin by our own experience. OK.
So, let's ask:
What is ORIGINAL SIN...

I'm going to post some links...
Hope you read them.
It's not IMPERATIVE to the reformed faith to believe in Original Sin.
You can still believe babies are born saved or lost because of predestination....(you know I disagree with this however).

What the Early Church Believed: Original Sin

As this collection of quotes from early Christian writers demonstrates, the doctrine of Original Sin can be traced to the beginning of Christianity.

www.catholic.com

Original Sin – Early Church Fathers (lll)

As I have shown in the previous two essays, John E. Toews makes a strong case in this book, The Story of Original Sin, that the doctrine of original sin as taught in many churches is not supported by the biblical text.

www.mysteinbach.ca

The following also speaks of Augustine...whose ideas were not in keeping with the early church fathers.

Quotes from the old church fathers where they deny original sin / sinful nature

The pre-Nicene church fathers did not believe in the sinful nature It’s not enough to go back to Luther and Calvin to check the views of the early church, but we must go further back than tha…

bjorkbloggen.com

I also believe I have very good sources.
But I know exactly what you mean by your statements above.
Just want to say that because theologians seem very strong to you does not necessarily mean that their theology is the theology accepted by mainline Christianity.

Your third link is a flat out anti calvinist site. I have not only heard these fools but chatted with some online,

 

[GodsGrace]

Your third link is a flat out anti calvinist site. I have not only heard these fools but chatted with some online,

I post links because I agree with their understanding of scripture. I don't claim to know their SOF or their attitude.

In fact, I don't care for anti sites.
We should maintain our Christian composure and treat each others as brothers.

 

[DJT_47]

Predestination (based upon the foreknowledge of God)

Premise: God knows the beginning and the end, so therefore he must also know all that will occur within the entire expanse of time including everything that will occur in the middle, between the beginning and the end of time.

Predestination as discussed in the bible (below passages) can therefore be easily explained when taking into consideration the foreknowledge that God possesses as also noted in scripture, which factor is germane to the proper understanding of predestination but is most often, if not always, overlooked and not considered when examining/discussing predestination.

Further, based upon God’s foreknowledge, all things must therefore then be already determined (destiny/fate); how can they not be if God knows the future? How can God know the future if it is fluid, dynamic, and changes, unless such fluidity and change is part of His foreknowledge, which it obviously must be? If things were fluid, dynamic, and/or random and subject to unexpected or unknown constant change to God, God would not know what was going to happen in the future and would not be able nor have been able to predict future events through His prophets. So, if God does know what will happen in the future, the future must already be set or determined and unchangeable (destiny/fate).

This premise further has profound implications when considering things such as prayer. This would have to then mean that God knows that you will (future) be praying for something before you pray for it. It doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t pray for it then, it simply means that the future is already known or has already been determined (due to God’s ‘foreknowledge’ of it), and your prayers, are simply fulfilling that which is already known to God and will occur as does everything else that occurs or will occur (also due to the “foreknowledge” of God). Whatever influences we think we have upon any given thing or subject through prayer or other actions, may in fact be as such, however, such influences are already known to God by His foreknowledge, and have therefore already been determined and are just the fulfillment of that which has already been determined will/should occur.

If God knows the beginning, the end, and as stated everything in between, then one can only conclude that all things have already been determined and are NOT able to be changed (destiny/fate) by prayer or anything else (once again due to the “foreknowledge” of God) and that all things that are done are so done in accordance with God’s plan and predicated upon and consistent with His “foreknowledge”. This is not to say that certain individuals were chosen first as being special or better than others and predestined accordingly, but rather means that once the plan was set into motion (the creation of all things), that the creation itself and related natural unfolding, sequential events, including the actions taken by individuals pursuant to the exercise of their own free will, would result in various things being done and events unfolding as a result thereof, but because God knows what those things will be in advance of them happening due to His “foreknowledge”, and predestination then being consistent with said “foreknowledge. Predestination then is successive to and in harmony with the “foreknowledge” of God.

Jer 1:5 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Rom 8 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 Pet 1:2 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Eph 1 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[gralanlinae]

Predestination is Practical

Like many, when I first encountered predestination, I immediately put God in the dock and pled injustice: “But that’s not fair. How could a loving God choose some and not others?” That’s a common objection to this doctrine, and it certainly was mine. But God, true to his character, was tender...

founders.org

In some churches, it is a word that conjures up images of an angry and capricious God who acts arbitrarily to save some, but consigns most sinners—including deceased infants—to eternal perdition. For many professing Christians, it is the mother-of-all-swear-words.

Let the pastor breathe it in the presence of the deacon board and he risks firing, fisticuffs or worse. A God who chooses is anti-American, anti democracy. It bespeaks a long-faced religion, a doctrinal novelty invented by a maniacal 16th century minister whose progeny manufactured a theological “ism” that has plunged countless souls into a godless eternity.

In other churches, it is a cherished word that describes a beloved doctrine, one that bestows comfort and unshakable confidence that not one maverick molecule, not one rebel subatomic particle exists outside of God’s loving providential control—even in the matter of salvation. Want to start a lively conversation? Then utter the word:

Predestination.

A Biblical Doctrine

Few doctrines in the history of American religion have assembled such a pugilistic resume. And yet, there it stands, in the plainest and most unapologetic of terms, in Ephesians 1:5, “In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ.” And again six verses later: “In him (Christ) we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Those Ephesians texts, along with Romans 9, much of John 6, and Jesus’s high priestly prayer in John 17 toppled my commitment to freewill theology two decades ago. Acts 13:48 threw the knockout punch.

Disputed and disdained though it may be, predestination and its sibling, election, are plainly taught in Scripture and every exegete must make peace with it. In Chapter 3, paragraph 3, the Second London Confession sets forth the doctrine this way:


Many evangelicals—including pastors—see the doctrine as best left alone, forbidden theological fruit, fraught with speculation. It’s just not practical, they argue. It’s a debate for seminary classes with no real bearing on the full-court press of everyday life.

But John Calvin, the pastor-theologian often credited with inventing predestination, argues to the contrary:


Lorraine Boettner, author of perhaps the most extensive single volume ever written on predestination, agrees:


A Beautiful Doctrine

Predestination is a beautiful doctrine. Its beauty lies in the fact that a holy God has revealed it to us in his Word. And, as Calvin and Boettner point out, it has significant practical application. Predestination is not merely a topic for discussion and debate among curious seminary students. It tells us much about the character of God:

• God is meticulously writing the story of history according to his own script. Though we speak of “accidents,” really, there are no accidents. Nothing will take place today that hasn’t been carefully planned before in eternity past by an all-powerful and good Creator.
• God loves sinners. We should never get over the stunning reality of this statement. Though we have rebelled against him, yet God sent his only Son to die in the place of sinful men and women to rescue them from sin and death (Rom. 5:8). Christ, who was not guilty, laid down his life for the guilty (1 Pet. 3:18). He bore the wrath we deserve.
• God uses means to achieve his ends. Our Lord selects weak clay pots and sends them to the ends of the earth to preach the good news of his rescue mission in Christ (Rom. 10:14-15). He gives fallen men the unconscionable privilege of proclaiming his sin-slaying, death-defeating gospel.
• God’s glory is ultimate, not man’s. The outset of the Shorter Catechism famously marks out the chief end of man—to glorify God and enjoy him forever. God made us for his glory (Isa. 42:8). Every pursuit in life is to be done with an eye to the spread of his fame.

Predestination also says something important about us: apart from a unilateral work of grace, we cannot please God. We are dead in our sins, and dead men can do nothing (Eph. 2:1). Therefore, we ignore predestination to our own spiritual malnourishment.

Predestination was held as doctrine in the early church (meaning the first 5 centuries. Augustine first held that God chose those who chose him in the future. That is a popular version. Later on Augustine was convinced and taught that God chose those whom he decided, not relying on the decision of the sinner. Calvin and other Reformers wanted to return the Church back to the standards of the faith in the 1st four hundred years (recall that there was no zero century.)
There has been much learning and discovery, including the Holy Spirit leading The Church into maturity. We are The Church, if we belong to God's Kingdom as The Bride of Christ.
Thanks for the series here.