Predestination

[GodsGrace]

pt2;
GOD IS SOVEREIGN OVER EVIL The last view—that God is absolutely sovereign over both natural and moral evil,

Well of course God is sovereign over everything and everyone.
The problem is the understanding we have of the word SOVEREIGN.
Sovereign means that God can control everything....
But to you it might mean something different.
IOW, it might mean that God controls even the particles that fly in the air, as you yourself have stated.
Could you confirm this please?

11 and uses evil for his own glory and the highest good—

God ALLOWS evil,,,He does not use it for His own glory.
If God needs EVIL to glorify Himself in some way,,,then what kind of a sovereign God is He?
He couldn't think of any other way to glorify Himself other than through evil??

James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
God does not use evil.


Romans 8:28
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
God works for our good. He does not use evil against us.
Genesis 50:20
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good,
God can take evil and make it produce good.

is the only view that can be consistently aligned to the teaching of Scripture. Every other view, deriving from sinful [incapacitated by the noetic effects of sin and willful rebellion against God and his truth] humanistic reasoning, and so calling God and his actions into question, seeks to point out an incoherence in the Christian system.

Not in the CHRISTIAN system...
In the reformed system.
We do see incoherency there.
As is plainly obvious.

These views either deny God and evil, or limit God and seek to bring him down to the finite level and destroy his moral self–consistency—and thus any sufficient or consistent basis for morality.12 The truth of the sovereignty of God over evil may be clarified by the following considerations and implications: • The existence of evil in a universe created and governed by a benevolent God is not incoherent if God has a morally sufficient reason for this evil to exist.

And what might that morally sufficient reason for evil to exist be?
God goes against His own nature for evil to exist for a moral reason?
God goes against His own nature?

So 2 Timoth 2:13 means nothing?
13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
Titus 1:2
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Hebrews 6:18
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:


I can only repeat, if we cannot TRUST GOD,
Then the OT and NT become useless.

GOD IS LOVE.
GOD PROMISED TO SAVE THOSE WHO WOULD BELIEVE IN HIS SON.

This “problem” is more psychological than logical or philosophical.13 Man would rather call God and his actions into question than submit himself in complete trust (Rom. 9:11–24), even to a God who is benevolent in the context of his righteousness.
10 Some of this group hold that God is either working in a utilitarian fashion as best he can, or that he merely foresaw evil and its results, but was not able to prevent them; or that there are some situations brought about by morally free agents that even God did not foresee. While the latter two are somewhat extreme, the idea that God merely foresaw or foreknew evil would not remove culpability from God. If God foresaw what would happen and then laid his plans accordingly, then he could have prevented sins, but evidently chose not to do so. Thus, God would be ultimately responsible for sin by allowing it, yet not controlling it for the highest good and his glory. Further, if God merely foresaw evil as a certainty—and it must have been certain for God to foresee it as such in the biblical sense—then God himself could not have prevented sin. Sin would have existed and been determined by a force outside God. He would thus finitely exist within a “universe” over which he exercised no ultimate control, a “universe” controlled in the final sense by an atheistic determinism!

You keep saying that you like to use the bible and that WE like philosophy and psychology,
but it seems that YOU are the one not using the bible and using man's writings instead.

 

[GodsGrace]

W......what you call a commentary, is the greek text. It is the bible...the funny little letters are the greek, rom3:23
pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/.
“For all sinned and are subsequently constantly coming short…”

Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton.
“by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”). Every human being is a sinner by imputation, nature and personal activity.
This Pastor has taught greek for over 45 years. So I am not adding to scriptureas you falsely accuse.
Instead you are rebelling against the actual scripture and offering falsehood. You have denied this truth 3 or 4 times on the various threads.

Get control of yourself. Before you attack or accuse, search it out first

Do you read the NT in Koine Greek?
If not then you're using a commentary.

If you want to speak about Romans, post it in English and we'll give it a go.
I don't need to know it in Greek - I trust the translators even though some word may be different,
the main thrust is the same.

And I speak romance languages so I know what I'm talking about.
And let's stop discussing the Greek. It's a waste of time UNLESS a word is really important.

Like the word DRAW.
In Enlgish DRAW is used...
In Greek and other romance languages there are different words to explain DRAW which are lost in the English.

Let's discuss the bible and not languages.

You are ADDING to scripture.

This is what YOU posted:
Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton.
“by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”)

WHERE does that sentence state that sin is IMPUTED to mankind?
It says that all men HAVE SINNED.

Quite a difference. Sinning and BEING IMPUTED sin are totally different.
Please reply to that.
The Greek says exactly the same.

 

[Iconoclast]

Well of course God is sovereign over everything and everyone.
The problem is the understanding we have of the word SOVEREIGN.
Sovereign means that God can control everything....

Ok W.... let's get down to it. I am going to answer you in kind now as you are requesting.
You might not like my answers

But to you it might mean something different.
IOW, it might mean that God controls even the particles that fly in the air, as you yourself have stated.
Could you confirm this please?

Yes as I have posted before. God is in control of every particle in the universe. God is in control of both men and angels.

God ALLOWS evil,,,He does not use it for His own glory.

This is proven clearly in the story of Joseph. It is demonstrated in the text, how can you or anyone question this?

But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. God used the evil design to save much people alive

If God needs EVIL to glorify Himself in some way

Who said God..." needs evil" We do not live in a pollyanna world of make-believe and care bears.
Evil exists under the control of God. His predetermined plan ensures we win In Christ.
God is glorified in all things.

,,,then what kind of a sovereign God is He?
He couldn't think of any other way to glorify Himself other than through evil??

Who are you to question God? Your post demonstrates unbelief. These are the questions Paul mentions in romans9
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
God does not use evil.

James is discussing God tempting man , not using evil for a good purpose. The cross is the most outstanding example....you do not know this???
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Romans 8:28
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
God works for our good. He does not use evil against us.
Genesis 50:20
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good,
God can take evil and make it produce good.

Now you jump back to here??? Evil ungodly persons are not protected in this sin cursed earth in the same way the people of God are.

Not in the CHRISTIAN system...
In the reformed system.

Hey W...news flash...the reformed system...is the Christian system. It is you who are outside the historic mainstream. All the confessions of faith that are solid are Reformed.

We do see incoherency there.
As is plainly obvious.

I see it coming from your keyboard. I am starting to think you are joking.

And what might that morally sufficient reason for evil to exist be?
God goes against His own nature for evil to exist for a moral reason?
God goes against His own nature?

I have offered teaching in the link.

So 2 Timoth 2:13 means nothing?
13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
Titus 1:2
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Hebrews 6:18
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

I can only repeat, if we cannot TRUST GOD,
Then the OT and NT become useless.

The reformed fully trust God. We believe Gen18:25

GOD IS LOVE.
GOD PROMISED TO SAVE THOSE WHO WOULD BELIEVE IN HIS SON.

Yes on both. He promised to save all the elect children who the father has given Him. He took upon himself the seed of Abraham.

You keep saying that you like to use the bible and that WE like philosophy and psychology,
but it seems that YOU are the one not using the bible and using man's writings instead.

The men's writings are trained pastors who use the bible, and explain it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Do you read the NT in Koine Greek?
If not then you're using a commentary.

If you want to speak about Romans, post it in English and we'll give it a go.
I don't need to know it in Greek - I trust the translators even though some word may be different,
the main thrust is the same.

You have posted error when you read

Ok W.... let's get down to it. I am going to answer you in kind now as you are requesting.
You might not like my answers

Yes as I have posted before. God is in control of every particle in the universe. God is in control of both men and angels.

This is proven clearly in the story of Joseph. It is demonstrated in the text, how can you or anyone question this?

But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. God used the evil design to save much people alive

Who said God..." needs evil" We do not live in a pollyanna world of make-believe and care bears.
Evil exists under the control of God. His predetermined plan ensures we win In Christ.
God is glorified in all things.

Who are you to question God? Your post demonstrates unbelief. These are the questions Paul mentions in romans9
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

James is discussing God tempting man , not using evil for a good purpose. The cross is the most outstanding example....you do not know this???
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Now you jump back to here??? Evil ungodly persons are not protected in this sin cursed earth in the same way the people of God are.



Hey W...news flash...the reformed system...is the Christian system. It is you who are outside the historic mainstream. All the confessions of faith that are solid are Reformed.


I see it coming from your keyboard. I am starting to think you are joking.

I have offered teaching in the link.


The reformed fully trust God. We believe Gen18:25

Yes on both. He promised to save all the elect children who the father has given Him. He took upon himself the seed of Abraham.

The men's writings are trained pastors who use the bible, and explain it.

English. You have denied imputation, and sin
.All sinned. After he put the Greek out there, he told you in English what it says.
Why the Greek? The language has tenses that dictate what the words mean.
All sinned is Aorist tense, meaning at one point in time. ALL SINNED in the past, in Adam at the fall. all died spiritually, even babies...ALL. You have denied this several times because you might not have been taught this before.
We sinned in Adam at the fall.
We do our own sin in life by experience because we are already sinners.

And I speak romance languages so I know what I'm talking about.
And let's stop discussing the Greek. It's a waste of time UNLESS a word is really important.

Like the word DRAW.
In Enlgish DRAW is used...
In Greek and other romance languages there are different words to explain DRAW which are lost in the English.

Let's discuss the bible and not languages.

You are ADDING to scripture.

This is what YOU posted:
Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton.
“by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”)

WHERE does that sentence state that sin is IMPUTED to mankind?
It says that all men HAVE SINNED.

have is not in there...it says all sinned...aorist tense, at one exact point in time in the past all sinned.

Quite a difference. Sinning and BEING IMPUTED sin are totally different.
Please reply to that.
The Greek says exactly the same.

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2

Romans 5:12 Therefore *, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because * all sinned -- (NASB: Lockman)

Greek: Dia touto hosper di' enos anthropou e hamartia eis ton kosmon eiselthen (3SAAI) kai dia tes hamartias o thanatos, kai houtos eis pantas anthropous o thanatos dielthen, (3SAAI) eph o pantes hemarton (3PAAI)
Amplified: Therefore, as sin came into the world through one man, and death as the result of sin, so death spread to all men, [no one being able to stop it or to escape its power] because all men sinned. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)
NLT: When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. (NLT - Tyndale House)
Phillips: This, then, is what happened. Sin made its entry into the world through one man, and through sin, death. The entail of sin and death passed on to the whole human race, and no one could break it for no one was himself free from sin. (Phillips: Touchstone)
Wuest: Wherefore, as through the intermediate agency of one man the aforementioned sin entered the world, and through this sin, death; and thus into and throughout all mankind death entered, because all sinned. (Eerdmans)
Young's Literal: because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;

look again; these men are greek scholars...they tell you in english what it actually says.
The aorist tense here is referred to as "timeless aorist" which gathers up the whole human race for all time into this condemnation (see also A T Robertson). There are no exceptions save Christ Jesus as Paul has made clear in the preceding indictment in (Ro 1:18-3:20)

Godet agrees writing that the aorist tense "transports us to the point of time when the result of human life appears as a completed fact, the hour of judgment." (The Epistle of St Paul to the Romans - Chapter 3)

MacDonald writes that the aorist tense pictures the fact that "Everybody sinned in Adam; when he sinned, he acted as the representative for all his descendants.
But men are not only sinners by nature; they are also sinners by practice. (Borrow Believer's Bible Commentary)

​

 

[WagonQho]

pt2

​

I figured I’d jump into this lol after waiting to hear what everybody has to say. I believe it’s very important to hear and comprehend what somebody is trying to put forth. Knowing that God will use whom ever He wishes ( carries a lot of weight in this subject) to save his children. So, if God can trust( Elect) and intercede (override free will) for His greater good why would you think our God is not big enough for that job? So yes, I do believe in predestination

 

[Iconoclast]

I figured I’d jump into this lol after waiting to hear what everybody has to say. I believe it’s very important to hear and comprehend what somebody is trying to put forth. Knowing that God will use whom ever He wishes ( carries a lot of weight in this subject) to save his children. So, if God can trust( Elect) and intercede (override free will) for His greater good why would you think our God is not big enough for that job? So yes, I do believe in predestination

Hello WQ,

God does make sinners willing in the day of His power. He over rides their rebellious self will to make them willing.

 

[WagonQho]

Iconoclast I like your choice of name and meaning. I chose my name because I like wagon train the TV show and my knowledge of Q. So if we were predestined in this life what and how did God chose us? Are we special? I have my beliefs, but I’m always curious on what other people think. Plus, I’m sure there are people reading these post that are new and wondering what the heck we’re talking about.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

This is my view, that is why I posted it. The link I offered is by a person who is very gifted and smarter than you or I.
When i post a link. I know that person is much smarter than I am. You will never really refute any link posted, because you flat out cannot.
I never learned to type...so it is much easier to copy and paste things already written. I will defend anything I post.
If you desire to hear me ARTICULATE...In my own words, let me know.We can speak on the phone as I speak much much faster than my two finger typing. You and I with open bibles, but be advised, i will not let you hide saying I have my own private view, but I will not say what it is cop out. let me know if you want to speak on the phone...I have done that on other boards, sometimes met people in other states face to face.

If you cannot articulate what you think but need someone else to do it for you, then it’s only useful to speak with that someone who can articulate their thoughts. It’s no use trying have a discussion with a parrot. And Those arguments have been successfully refuted but you’ve made up your mind already.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ok W.... let's get down to it. I am going to answer you in kind now as you are requesting.
You might not like my answers

Yes as I have posted before. God is in control of every particle in the universe. God is in control of both men and angels.

OK.
Now remember that you said this:
GOD IS IN CONTROL OF EVERYTHING. PARTICLES IN THE AIR, MEN, ANGELS.

This is proven clearly in the story of Joseph. It is demonstrated in the text, how can you or anyone question this?

No dear friend in Christ. And herein lies the problem.
I said GOD USES EVIL.
YOU believe that God uses evil for His own glory.
He does not use evil for His own glory.
He takes evil and makes GOOD OUT OF IT.
This is different.

But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. God used the evil design to save much people alive

Of course. God used the evil for good.
How does that jive with what you believe about God sending billions of people to hell and then you also state that God used the evil for good TO KEEP MANY PEOPLE ALIVE.

Sounds to me like "your" God doesn't care too much about people.

I'm going to have to say YOUR GOD because you're getting mixed up with what I believe and what you believe.

Who said God..." needs evil" We do not live in a pollyanna world of make-believe and care bears.
Evil exists under the control of God. His predetermined plan ensures we win In Christ.
God is glorified in all things.

I NEVER SAID GOD NEEDS EVIL.
I said that YOU believe God needs evil to glorify Himself.
Maybe you're not a calvinist. You're wishy washy about it and it come through in the way you reply to me.
I'M SAYING God does not need evil to bring about His plan.
That would be an odd God indeed.

Who are you to question God? Your post demonstrates unbelief. These are the questions Paul mentions in romans9
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

James is discussing God tempting man , not using evil for a good purpose. The cross is the most outstanding example....you do not know this???
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Still with Romans 9.
The reformed are the ONLY denomination that does not understand that Romans 9 is about corporate salvation in regards to God revealing Himself to the Hebrews.
No use to discuss Romans 9.
Start a thread if you want to discuss.
You have no other verses to go by than these. and these do not mean what you think they do.
I've posted enough links,,,
here's another one:

Now you jump back to here??? Evil ungodly persons are not protected in this sin cursed earth in the same way the people of God are.

I don't think you read my posts.
I said TO THOSE THAT LOVE GOD.
That's what the verse means. Read Romans 8:28 again.
Who's talking about evil, ungodly persons?

Hey W...news flash...the reformed system...is the Christian system. It is you who are outside the historic mainstream. All the confessions of faith that are solid are Reformed.

The reformed system came about 1,500 years after Jesus died.
Do you believe all the theologians before that were wrong?
We had to wait for Luther and Calvin to tell us the truth?

The reformed system is outside of mainline Christianity.
It's the ONLY denomination that believes what it does.
This kind of has to sink in.

I see it coming from your keyboard. I am starting to think you are joking.

I have offered teaching in the link.

What link?
I asked you what the moral reason could be for God to have made evil exist.
I stated that God cannot go against His own nature.
Could you state a reply in your own words, even if you do post a link.

BTW, I don't use links for learning the Christian faith.
I only use them for support.
You don't need to post links to teach me anything...only if they refute something I've stated...
so far there's been nothing.

The reformed fully trust God. We believe Gen18:25

That's nice that you trust God.
But I'm asking you how that could be possible in view of
2 Timothy 2:13 that states that God cannot deny HIMSELF and then you state that God uses evil.

Yes on both. He promised to save all the elect children who the father has given Him. He took upon himself the seed of Abraham.

Yes on both?
In your very first statement you said God controls everything in man and angels.
Now you're saying God elected the children given to Him, or V V, same difference.
I'M SAYING God chooses, but THOSE THAT BELIEVE ON HIS SON.

The men's writings are trained pastors who use the bible, and explain it.

Sure. The way they understand it.
Why do Piper, Sproul (not anymore), MaCarthur, Chandler, etc.
give such a different message from every other denomination??
Did you ever stop to think that they might be wrong?

 

[GodsGrace]

You have posted error when you read


English. You have denied imputation, and sin
.All sinned. After he put the Greek out there, he told you in English what it says.
Why the Greek? The language has tenses that dictate what the words mean.
All sinned is Aorist tense, meaning at one point in time. ALL SINNED in the past, in Adam at the fall. all died spiritually, even babies...ALL. You have denied this several times because you might not have been taught this before.

You know, you're very condescending.
What do you know what I've studied?
HOW DOES A BABY SIN?

You should find out the difference between sinning and being IMPUTED WITH SIN.
Perhaps you've never been taught this?

We sinned in Adam at the fall.
We do our own sin in life by experience because we are already sinners.



have is not in there...it says all sinned...aorist tense, at one exact point in time in the past all sinned.

And you think you understand the aorist tense.
That's pretty funny.
The aorist tense has nothing to do with WHEN something happened....
I really know someone that knows Koine and modern Greek and he said to forget trying to translate it or understand it fully.

This might help you:

Hellenistic Greek: Lesson 9: The First Aorist

This lesson teaches students to recognize, write, and interpret First Aorist verb forms.

hellenisticgreek.com

 

[GodsGrace]

pt2

​

Here we go with Greek lessons again.
I must stop writing to you AGAIN.
If you want Greek lesson, come over.
I'll let you meet a theologian that taught Greek in the middle east.
To Christian scholars studying the bible.

 

[GodsGrace]

Iconoclast I like your choice of name and meaning. I chose my name because I like wagon train the TV show and my knowledge of Q. So if we were predestined in this life what and how did God chose us? Are we special? I have my beliefs, but I’m always curious on what other people think. Plus, I’m sure there are people reading these post that are new and wondering what the heck we’re talking about.

Hi W,
We all know what you're talking about.

Welcome to the forum!
I'm happy to have you here, even though we probably won't be agreeing on soteriology.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast I like your choice of name and meaning. I chose my name because I like wagon train the TV show and my knowledge of Q. So if we were predestined in this life what and how did God chose us? Are we special? I have my beliefs, but I’m always curious on what other people think. Plus, I’m sure there are people reading these post that are new and wondering what the heck we’re talking about.

I used to watch that, wagon train, have gun will travel, maverick, bat masterson, gunsmoke,wanted dead or alive, lol...was that all there was? westerns?

Spurgeon was preaching on Rom9...someone had asked him...why did God hate Esau?
He responded that he wondered why and how could he love Jacob?
When we consider our own sinfulness and understand this verse;

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

We can begin to understand that special saving love.

 

[jasonc]

I can't watch westerns without noticing the prop mistakes

 

[Iconoclast]

I can't watch westerns without noticing the prop mistakes

Like a plane flying in the backround?

 

[jasonc]

Like a plane flying in the backround?

No utilities. I used to read electric meters so out of habit as I drive I will notice drops.

Telegraph lines going to a house way out of town ? Look closer and the poles aren't telegraph lines as those were one wire .

Plus the insulators were hand made glass of red ,blue ,yellow ,green . These are in a museum that was a train station with a telegraph .

 

[WagonQho]

I used to watch that, wagon train, have gun will travel, maverick, bat masterson, gunsmoke,wanted dead or alive, lol...was that all there was? westerns?

Spurgeon was preaching on Rom9...someone had asked him...why did God hate Esau?
He responded that he wondered why and how could he love Jacob?
When we consider our own sinfulness and understand this verse;

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

We can begin to understand that special saving love.

Yes, I love the westerns Western Because the good guys always won. And a person word meant everything

 

[WagonQho]

I can't watch westerns without noticing the prop mistakes

Lol that’s funny once in a while, I’m looking around to see if an airplane is gonna fly by in the background. I guess I don’t have too much of an eye for detail. I’m too caught up iI guess I don’t have too much of a eye for detail. I’m too caught up in the plot.

 

[WagonQho]

No utilities. I used to read electric meters so out of habit as I drive I will notice drops.

Telegraph lines going to a house way out of town ? Look closer and the poles aren't telegraph lines as those were one wire .

Plus the insulators were hand made glass of red ,blue ,yellow ,green . These are in a museum that was a train station with a telegraph .

That’s funny one time I used to read gas meter for Southern California, gas Co.
Head out towards the Bishop and they have museum and artifacts with the background of a movie set