Doctrine of the Trinity – Is it Fundamental to the Christian Faith

[JLB]

Abraham begot Issac on a certain day (I don't know, maybe someone could even figure out what day this occurred). Abraham's living flesh (sperm) entered Sarah's living flesh (egg). Both of which had the Spirit of God in their flesh.

I don't know if the Spirit of God was in their flesh, maybe you could share the scripture that says the Spirit of God was in there flesh.

The point is, Issac had his beginning when Abraham begot him.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Do you think non-trinitarians believe Jesus is God?

That is the main point.

Some do, and some do not.

Jesus Christ is the Lord God who created the heavens and the earth.

8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10

• “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

The Lord God, YHWH speaking through Zechariah

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, [the Spirit of Christ] who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: 10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:1,10

• then they will look on Me whom they pierced.

Peters says the Spirit of Christ was Who spoke through the mouth of the prophets.


10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

• the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ

Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5

• Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You.

We know that it is Jesus who is coming with the saints on the Day of the Lord.



JLB

 

[Runner]

The point I believe chessman is trying to make is like this. I am a father. I was alive for 23 years before I became a father when my son was born. If the Son of God was not always with the Father, how can the Father be the father before the Son existed?

I assume non-Trinitarians believe God wasn't "the Father" before there was anything to be the Father of. I believe Jews understood God as the Father in the sense of the Father of all creation including mankind. Here is a scholarly article that addresses the Jewish and Christian concepts of the Father: http://www.jcrelations.net/God+the+...+Background+or+Common+Ground?.2771.0.html?L=3 .

Do you think non-trinitarians believe Jesus is God? I would struggle with that because if Jesus is not God and we worship Him as we do, then we are in a grave danger for worshiping an idol.

"Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." Exodus 20:3 KJV

Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, make clear that they do not worship Jesus. I believe many non-Trinitarians do worship or reverse Jesus as the divine Son of God, or perhaps worship God through Jesus. That would not, I suppose, be having "another God" before God, merely acknowledging Jesus' status as the divine Son of God. The counterpart of your concern is that, if you are worshipping Jesus as God and He is not in fact God, both God and Jesus might regard that as blasphemy.

 

[chessman]

The point I believe chessman is trying to make is like this. I am a father. I was alive for 23 years before I became a father when my son was born. If the Son of God was not always with the Father, how can the Father be the father before the Son existed?

Correct. And it's not a cliff. It's a fundamental defeater to any of the non-trinitarian views that teach the Son had a beginning. (And that's just one defeater, there are many, many more too).

The Son has no beginning, the Son along with His Father and the Holy Spirit ARE the beginning. For goodness sake, all things were created through the Son. Not all other things besides the Son were created through Him. Simple.

Trinitarians understand the Son is eternal (past and future, Alpha and Omega), God. The Maker of all things. Just as the Father is eternal, because He is God, so is His Son. Simple.

Non-trinitarians are all mixed up on their speculations of when/if the Son began (as has been evidence in this thread). Some think He began in Mary's womb (Jehovah Witness) and was Himself the Father (without a Son evidently) prior to that time. This is why they've tinkered with both OT and NT Texts to support their view.

Some think the Son began as the first created angel (Mormons). This is why they created their own additional writings to explain his beginnings. (And oh, by the way, you can be gods too).

Some think the Son is simply God's 'agent' on Earth (Unitarians). The main problem with this view is worship given to God, is reserved to God alone. Yet we have the apostles while they were alive and in fact all (angels and humans) in the future worshiping the Lamb as God in Revelation 22.

Some non-trinitarians have no idea when the Son began other than to think the Son must have a beginning because Messiah is given the title "firstborn" (most likely because their church teaches this phrase/title means beginning, when it doesn't).

But, when you actually look at "firstborn" Texts and read them in their entirety, they specifically say the Messiah is "firstborn of creation" yet pre-existed as the Son. "Firstborn of creation" was decreed long before Mary lived, much less Jesus. None say, or even imply, that the Son was the first creature to be born

 

[Randy]

You have your own bias against the Trinity. No one in this discussion is unbiased; there is no neutrality.


What does firstborn mean?

The eldest child of a parent.
You are indeed influenced by the trinity doctrine.

 

[Randy]

Who sits upon the throne of your God?

A. Lord Jesus Christ
B. The Father
C. Both

Jesus overcame and sat down on His Fathers throne. He is the ruler of Gods creation. Jesus received authority from God. Why would someone who always was and always was God need to receive authority? Why would such a being need to have the fullness dwell in Him would such a being already have that fullness as part of their being?

 

[jaybird]

I assume non-Trinitarians believe God wasn't "the Father" before there was anything to be the Father of. I believe Jews understood God as the Father in the sense of the Father of all creation including mankind. Here is a scholarly article that addresses the Jewish and Christian concepts of the Father: http://www.jcrelations.net/God+the+Father+in+Rabbinic+Judaism+and+Christianity:+Transformed+Background+or+Common+Ground?.2771.0.html?L=3 .



Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, make clear that they do not worship Jesus. I believe many non-Trinitarians do worship or reverse Jesus as the divine Son of God, or perhaps worship God through Jesus. That would not, I suppose, be having "another God" before God, merely acknowledging Jesus' status as the divine Son of God. The counterpart of your concern is that, if you are worshipping Jesus as God and He is not in fact God, both God and Jesus might regard that as blasphemy.

where does Jesus teach to worship the Son?

 

[Runner]

where does Jesus teach to worship the Son?

I'm not really a big fan of the My Bible Verses Are Better Than Your Bible Verses game, amusing as it can be, but there are certainly numerous instances in the NT of believers explicitly "worshipping" Jesus - Matt. 28:17, Matt. 28:9 and John 9:38 are three that I located in 15 seconds with my trusty second generation Kindle.

When Thomas exclaimed (in a verse that would seem to support the Trinitarian position), “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28), Jesus did not rebuke him but merely said, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.” (John 20:29).

I'm not sure what point you're making, but certainly all believers can find license in the NT for worshipping Jesus. Since you don't seem to be a Trinitarian, is it the Jehovah's Witnesses' "non-worship" position that you are feeling obligated to defend?

 

[chessman]

The counterpart of your concern is that, if you are worshipping Jesus as God and He is not in fact God, both God and Jesus might regard that as blasphemy.

Bingo. (Disregarding the fact that Jesus is God incarnate) neither the Father nor Jesus regard the worship of the resurrected Jesus as blasphemy. But the Jewish leaders of Jesus' day sure did. Go to the complete Revelation of Christ and how it prophecies that all will worship the Lamb (who is the resurrected Christ Jesus, Messiah, the Son of God in flesh, God) and all confusions about Jesus becomes chaff.

Revelation 21:22-24 And I did not see a temple in it, for the Lord God All-Powerful is its temple, and the Lamb. And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon, that they shine on it, for the glory of God illuminates it, and its lamp is the Lamb. And the nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.​

The Lord GodAll-Powerful is the Temple and the Lamb. And the nations WILL bring their glory to it (The Lamb).

Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, make clear that they do not worship Jesus.

Thus Jesus Christ is NOT their Savior.

1 Timothy 2:3-8 This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all [the Lamb], the testimony at the proper time, for which I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am speaking the truth, I am not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger and dispute.​

I believe many non-Trinitarians do worship or reverse Jesus as the divine Son of God, or perhaps worship God through Jesus.

Which would be like worshipping Adam or Moses if Jesus is not God.

That would not, I suppose, be having "another God" before God, merely acknowledging Jesus' status as the divine Son of God.

Hogwash.

 

[chessman]

where does Jesus teach to worship the Son?

Rev 21-22 (which is a prohecy, indeed a warning, of things to come).

But it's an old, old principle taught throughout Scripture;

Psalm 2:10-12 So then, O kings, be wise. Be warned, O rulers of the earth. Serve Yahweh with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son lest he be angry and you perish on the way, for his anger burns quickly. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
​

If you are not kissing the Son of God, you are not serving Yahweh. And it makes God angry, very angry at you.

Philippians 2:10-12 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and of those on earth and of those under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Therefore my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.​

Got it??? At some point, at the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow. Best be practicing up.

 

[Randy]

Do you think non-trinitarians believe Jesus is God? I would struggle with that because if Jesus is not God and we worship Him as we do, then we are in a grave danger for worshiping an idol.

"Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." Exodus 20:3 KJV

Jesus was worshipped as the Son of God. I often pray to Jesus.
Matt 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

 

[Randy]

Do you think non-trinitarians believe Jesus is God? I would struggle with that because if Jesus is not God and we worship Him as we do, then we are in a grave danger for worshiping an idol.

"Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." Exodus 20:3 KJV

Those that love the Son are loved by the Father. Th one who sent Jesus.
The main argument is not if there is a Father, Son ,Holy Spirit which I state so but is Jesus God and how can that be so?
The how I read is that the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him not that he always was and always was God. I have stated clearly Jesus is ALL that the Father is. The means Jesus is the exact image of the wisdom and power of God. BUT to me the fullness in the Son is the Father without limit. Not some other diety or even Jesus's spirit. Jesus the Son has his own spirit as in "father into your hands i commit my spirit"
SO its a yes and no answer to me in regard to jesus being God.

 

[chessman]

I recommend the viewing and study of the Biblical points made by both sides within the following debate:

The how I read is that the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him

Which is why believers in Him [God in the tent of a physical body] have been reconciled by His physical body through death.

not that he always was and always was God.

Who held together all things before the Son was God, on your view?

 

[chessman]

I don't know if the Spirit of God was in their flesh, maybe you could share the scripture that says the Spirit of God was in there flesh.

Job 12:9 Who among all of these does not know that Yahweh’s hand has done this? Job 12:10 In whose hand [Yahweh's] is the life of all living things and the breath of every human being?
​

Was Abraham's and Sarah's flesh alive or dead when they conceived Issac?

The point is, Issac had his beginning when Abraham begot him.

Actually, the point was Issac had his beginning when Yahweh said so.

Later, God visited Sarah and opened her womb (her living flesh) just as He had said previously He would. And later, God made a covenant with Abraham's flesh ( his living flesh).

Genesis 17:13, 15-16 Genesis 21:1-2, 12 And Yahweh visited Sarah as he had said. And Yahweh did to Sarah as he had promised. And she conceived, and Sarah bore to Abraham a son in his old age at the appointed time that God had told him. Then God said to Abraham, “Do not be displeased on account of the boy and on account of the slave woman. Listen to everything that Sarah said to you, for through Isaac your offspring will be named. You must certainly circumcise the servant born in your house and the one bought from any foreigner. And my covenant shall be with your flesh as an everlasting covenant. And God said to Abraham, “as for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, for Sarah shall be her name. And I will bless her; moreover, I give to you from her a son. And I will bless her, and she shall give rise to nations. Kings of peoples shall come from her.” ​

 

[jaybird]

I'm not really a big fan of the My Bible Verses Are Better Than Your Bible Verses game, amusing as it can be, but there are certainly numerous instances in the NT of believers explicitly "worshipping" Jesus - Matt. 28:17, Matt. 28:9 and John 9:38 are three that I located in 15 seconds with my trusty second generation Kindle.

When Thomas exclaimed (in a verse that would seem to support the Trinitarian position), “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28), Jesus did not rebuke him but merely said, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.” (John 20:29).

I'm not sure what point you're making, but certainly all believers can find license in the NT for worshipping Jesus. Since you don't seem to be a Trinitarian, is it the Jehovah's Witnesses' "non-worship" position that you are feeling obligated to defend?

you made the comment about trins and non trins worshiping so thats what i was responding to.

i agree Jesus was worshiped, kings and angels are also worshiped so i guess i should be more specific. where does Jesus teach we are to worship the Son as the Most High, in the same way those before worshiped the Father? the wise men worshiped Jesus, they believed Jesus to be king.
worshiping Jesus seems to conflict with what Jesus taught.
He taught to pray to the Father.
He taught we could ask the Father in the name of the Son. in the name of the Son is still a prayer to the Father.
He taught true believer worship the Father and the Father is seeking such believers.
if Jesus is the example we follow, it only makes sense to me one would pray and worship the same way He did.

 

[JLB]

Job 12:9 Who among all of these does not know that Yahweh’s hand has done this? Job 12:10 In whose hand [Yahweh's] is the life of all living things and the breath of every human being?
Was Abraham's and Sarah's flesh alive or dead when they conceived Issac?

The scripture says in whose hand is the life of all living things and the breath.

I certainly agree that God is in control of all of creation.

This scripture doesn't say that His breath is in the flesh of Abraham, but rather that Abraham's breath is in God's hand.

Which none of this has anything to do with my point.

The beginning of Isaac was at the point in which he was begotten by Abraham.

This of course is in the natural sense of begotten which probably doesn't necessarily apply to the spiritual application.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Actually, the point was Issac had his beginning when Yahweh said so.

Later, God visited Sarah and opened her womb (her living flesh) just as He had said previously He would. And later, God made a covenant with Abraham's flesh ( his living flesh).

Genesis 17:13, 15-16 Genesis 21:1-2, 12 And Yahweh visited Sarah as he had said. And Yahweh did to Sarah as he had promised. And she conceived, and Sarah bore to Abraham a son in his old age at the appointed time that God had told him. Then God said to Abraham, “Do not be displeased on account of the boy and on account of the slave woman. Listen to everything that Sarah said to you, for through Isaac your offspring will be named. You must certainly circumcise the servant born in your house and the one bought from any foreigner. And my covenant shall be with your flesh as an everlasting covenant. And God said to Abraham, “as for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, for Sarah shall be her name. And I will bless her; moreover, I give to you from her a son. And I will bless her, and she shall give rise to nations. Kings of peoples shall come from her.”

No that isn't the point at all.

The point was Isaac's beginning was when he was begotten by Abraham.

Did God bless Sarah? Yes.

Did Abraham still beget Isaac? Yes.

I believe Jesus is the Lord God, YHWH, Son of God.



JLB

 

[Randy]

I recommend the viewing and study of the Biblical points made by both sides within the following debate:

Which is why believers in Him [God in the tent of a physical body] have been reconciled by His physical body through death.



Who held together all things before the Son was God, on your view?

The only one who predates the Son is His God. Since the creation (genesis) and things set in heaven were done through Jesus I don't know what existed prior to Jesus or how long it was before God put into motion creating beings or what even existed prior to Jesus. So what needed to by held together prior to the creation? But God the Father was around.

 

[chessman]

But God the Father was around.

A sonless father??? Think about it. How misleading of a name that would be (if it were true). Then think about the fact that you just admitted, you do not know when the Son had his assumed beginning (though the sonless 'father' was around then).

Do you believe when the Father was around, but prior to the Son being around, that the Father was the same then as the Father is now (i.e. Changeless)?

 

[Free]

The eldest child of a parent.

We have, of course, been over this before. And I have shown very clearly that the biblical usage of "firstborn" is not at all limited to "the eldest child of a parent." In fact, I have also shown, and will do so again, that it simply cannot mean that of Jesus without contradicting one of the very contexts in which it is used.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

Here we see Jesus being called the firstborn. If we take that to mean he is the eldest child of God, that would stand in direct contradiction to "by him all things were created...all things were created by him and for him." Notice that that agrees completely with John 1:3:

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (ESV)

So either Jesus did, in fact, create everything that has ever been created, as these passages plainly state, and "firstborn" in Col 1:15 means that Jesus is preeminent over all creation (that he has the highest rank, as does a literal firstborn son), or, Jesus didn't create everything, since he himself would have to have been created, thus causing a significant contradiction.

Which is it?