What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

donadams said:
A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!
Click to expand...
Obedience is the sign of what God has ALREADY done in a person. The works gospel says you have to perform works of righteousness in order to be made righteous. The gospel of grace says you perform works of righteousness because you are ALREADY made righteous by faith all by itself apart from the works it produces.

This is easily confirmed by Romans 4:6. Abraham BELIEVED God and it was credited to him as righteousness Romans 4:3. It does not say he did work and it was credited to him as righteousness, as the Catholics claim - Romans 4:5. His faith, not his work was credited to him as righteousness.
 
Last edited:
donadams said:
How do we obtain mercy?
Click to expand...
You ASK for it:

Luke 18:13-14
13But the tax collector stood at a distance, unwilling even to lift up his eyes to heaven. Instead, he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’ 14I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified.

Romans 10:10
10For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.

You do NOT work for it. You receive it by believing in it and asking for it.

Your works then SHOW you to have received it, not MAKE you to receive it.
 
donadams said:
Then why do you insist on saying it’s “faith alone”?
Click to expand...
I don't say it's 'faith alone'.

Paul says it's, "righteousness (justification) apart from works." 'Faith alone' means something else and has nothing to do with being MADE righteous.

Catholics confuse James' 'faith alone' argument with Paul's 'apart from works' argument as if they are one and the same argument. They are not. The supposedly infallible Catholic church doesn't know they are not the same argument, and that they can not be the same argument for the obvious reason it causes Paul and James to be in contradiction with each other.

The key to understanding the difference between 'faith alone' and 'righteousness apart from works' is the fact that 'justified' has two very distinct definitions and Paul and James are using a different definition than the other in their arguments. For some reason after all these centuries the Catholic church won't acknowledge this simple fact. I guess because of pride they can't acknowledge it because they would have to admit they've been wrong after all these centuries of arrogantly claiming they know it all and can't be wrong.
 
donadams said:
We don’t need to be actually righteous by the grace of God?
Click to expand...
That is correct. Because that is IMPOSSIBLE in this life. Even when given a measure of the Holy Spirit we still can't be perfectly righteous. The only answer is to be given a promise of the righteousness to come. And so righteousness is credited to a person through faith in that promise, not credited to them by doing righteous things.
 
donadams said:
So you believe Jesus is glorifying Mary here for who did the will of God more perfectly than Mary? Lk 1:41-45
And we cannot praise her enough!
Her exalted dignity for out reaches our poor efforts of praise and veneration

Jn 2 Jesus says no to Mary, my hour hath not come (his hour is set by the father as a divine law) but He performs the miracle why?

What is the new song of salvation?

Psalm 33:3, 40:3, 96:1, 98:1, and 149:1
Biblical Mary, mother of God, ever Virgin, sinless, mother of our salvation!

Mother of God Lk 1:43

Immaculate conception (sinless) gen 3:15 enmity or total war none of satans works are found in Mary!
Also Lk 1:28 full of grace lk 1:49 great things plural (immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus) Rev12:1 woman clothed with the sun. Immaculate purity

Without Mary being immaculate the Holy Spirit could not conceive the “holy” son of God in Her!

Lk 1:30 found favor with God (the salvation lost by Adam) mother of our salvation Lk 2:30 and cos she consented to our salvation! Lk 1:38

Perpetual Virgin Isa 7:14 matt 1:21
Lk 1:31-34

Spiritual Mother Jn 19:26-27 rev 12:17

Mother of the creator is mother of all creation!

Mother of the Redeemer is the mother of all the redeemed!

Mother of our Savior is the mother of all those who obtain salvation!
Lk 1:30

ALL GENERATIONS (Christians) SHALL CALL ME BLESSED!

Lk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.


Scripture expects Christians to call Mary blessed!

To do so would be to honor Mary!

To do so is to praise Mary!

To do so is to venerate Mary!

All Christians must say with the angels; “Hail Mary” ever blessed!

Praise of Mary and the saints redounds to the glory of God and Christ, cos Mary and the saints are what God made them, it is His handiwork (Lk 1:49 Lk 1:28) and the graces they have come from the merits of Christ’s passion and death.

Likewise an Attack on Mary and the saints, or the authority of the apostles or the church or rejection of such doctrines is and attack on God and on Christ!

Only fundamentalists and heretics violate scripture and call Mary sinner!
Click to expand...
All those scriptures are “sad” are rejecting scripture? Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ so what would rejection of scripture be?
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Water baptism is only one of many, many obediences that the believer in God is expected to walk in. But NONE of them MAKES a person righteous. Only the forgiveness of God and the giving of the Holy Spirit does that.
Click to expand...
Where does it say obedience?

Baptism is a sacrament of grace to make a new creation

Read the scripture

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!




“Faith alone” Questions

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”

Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 4:5 one baptism

Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???

When we first believed we are saved?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?

1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.

How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?

If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!

Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2

“Faith alone” unbiblical!
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Obedience is the sign of what God has ALREADY done in a person. The works gospel says you have to perform works of righteousness in order to be made righteous. The gospel of grace says you perform works of righteousness because you are ALREADY made righteous by faith all by itself apart from the works it produces.

This is easily confirmed by Romans 4:6. Abraham BELIEVED God and it was credited to him as righteousness Romans 4:3. It does not say he did work and it was credited to him as righteousness, as the Catholics claim - Romans 4:5. His faith, not his work was credited to him as righteousness.
Click to expand...
Baptismal regeneration is part of what we believe
 
Jethro Bodine said:
I don't say it's 'faith alone'.

Paul says it's, "righteousness (justification) apart from works." 'Faith alone' means something else and has nothing to do with being MADE righteous.

Catholics confuse James' 'faith alone' argument with Paul's 'apart from works' argument as if they are one and the same argument. They are not. The supposedly infallible Catholic church doesn't know they are not the same argument, and that they can not be the same argument for the obvious reason it causes Paul and James to be in contradiction with each other.

The key to understanding the difference between 'faith alone' and 'righteousness apart from works' is the fact that 'justified' has two very distinct definitions and Paul and James are using a different definition than the other in their arguments. For some reason after all these centuries the Catholic church won't acknowledge this simple fact. I guess because of pride they can't acknowledge it because they would have to admit they've been wrong after all these centuries of arrogantly claiming they know it all and can't be wrong.
Click to expand...
If the church is wrong then Christ is wrong??? Lk 10:16 Matt 28:19 acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Christ and His church are one!
Christ is the truth! Jn 14:6
The church is the pillar of truth! 1 Tim 3:5

Paul scripture oppose works of the mosaic law ordinances and requirements that were fulfilled in Christ and nailed to the cross also works alone, not faith and works in a Christian united to Christ by grace Jn 15:4

Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles! The apostles have the same mission, ministry, power, and authority as Christ! Jn 20:21 as the father sent me, so I send you!

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
Acts 2:42 doctrine of the apostles!
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1

The pillar and foundation of TRUTH!
1 Tim 3:15

The TWO EDGE SWORD!
To proclaim the truth! Matt 28:19
To condemn error! 1 cor 16:22

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9;4 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Matt 18:17 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42
1 Tim 3:15
 
Jethro Bodine said:
That is correct. Because that is IMPOSSIBLE in this life. Even when given a measure of the Holy Spirit we still can't be perfectly righteous. The only answer is to be given a promise of the righteousness to come. And so righteousness is credited to a person through faith in that promise, not credited to them by doing righteous things.
Click to expand...
Please explain
Lk 1 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed therighteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

“Not enter the kingdom” we enter the kingdom by baptismal regeneration Jn 3:5
 
donadams said:
All those scriptures are “sad” are rejecting scripture? Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ so what would rejection of scripture be?
Click to expand...
The Catholic Church has twisted and perverted the scriptures to invent and promote a cult of Mary worship. I will have nothing to do with it.
 
donadams said:
Where does it say obedience?
Click to expand...
Baptism is commanded. That makes it a required obedience. Just not required for what the Catholic church says it's required for. It does not MAKE you righteous. Nothing can make you righteous except for your sins to be forgiven and your unrighteousness replaced with God's righteousness.
 
donadams said:
Baptismal regeneration is part of what we believe
Click to expand...
And that's why you're Catholic and I'm not!

The only thing that can regenerate a person is the Holy Spirit. Water has zero power to do that. Not even the righteous obedience of being water baptized can do that. The only thing that can regenerate a person is God himself through the forgiveness of sin and the giving of the Holy Spirit.
 
donadams said:
Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!
Click to expand...
Please stop using James' 'faith alone' argument to try to nullify Paul's very different argument about 'righteousmess apart from works'. They are NOT the same.

Please refer to Paul's argument when talking about Paul's argument. A man is MADE righteous by faith all by itself apart from works. Faith alone is referring to not having any works to show that you have faith and has nothing to do with how to be made righteous.
 
donadams said:
The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?
Click to expand...
And that is correct, that is the only reference! And it has NOTHING to do with Paul's argument of how a person is made righteous by faith apart from works. James is talking about being SHOWN to be righteous by what you do, not MADE to be righteous by what you do.

"18...I will show you my faith by my deeds. " James 2:18

So you can see that it has NOTHING to do with how to be made righteous.
 
donadams said:
How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?
Click to expand...
Because there is still the saving of one through the fires of Judgement at the end of the age. People who have made peace with God now in this age are saved, but there is still the coming final judgment of fire through which believers will be saved.
 
donadams said:
“Faith alone” unbiblical!
Click to expand...
Your erroneous understanding of 'faith alone' is what is unbiblical.

No where in James' teaching does he say a man is MADE righteous by faith and works. What he does say is a man is SHOWN to have faith (and thus the righteousness of faith) by works. Paul is the one who explains how a man is made righteous apart from works, Romans 4:6. Please stop confusing these two very different and distinct arguments.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top