Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Jethro Bodine]

Is this circular reasoning too?...White people can't be Black because White people are White.

No, that is not circular reasoning.

This would make it circular reasoning:

White people can't be black because white people can't be black.

And that's the kind of reasoning you're employing in your argument:

Saved people can't sin because saved people can't sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

BTW, there will be no saved people until the final judgement.

Then surely you have some way for this to not mean what it says, right?

24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.
John 5:24

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is those in Christ who will be saved, and as there is no sin in Christ, we know those in Christ can have no sin in them either.

And so there are unsaved people in Christ?

Or are you opining that there IS sin in Christ?

No, I'm not saying there is sin in Christ.
The fact there is no sin in Christ is the very reason those in Christ have no sin guilt on their record.

If a person is not saved then they still have sin debt on their account. So YOU are actually the one who is saying there is sin in Christ because you say there are unsaved people in Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul was addressing a whole church, of which some seemed to be believing the Judaizers.
Where did Paul say it was sin?

Paul was addressing those who received the Spirit (Galatians 3:2-3, 4:31).

And if believing another gospel, making Christ of no value to you in justification was a sin for the Corinthians, and it was (1 Corinthians 15:34, 15:14, 15:17), then it is for the Galatians too (Galatians 1:6, 5:2,4).

 

[JackrabbitSlim]

Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?​

No. I believe James teaches works because of salvation.

I have always said, I do because I am saved, not to become saved.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I have always said, I do because I am saved, not to become saved.

And what do you say when the works don’t match the salvation?

 

[WIP]

And what do you say when the works don’t match the salvation?

We are all fallible. We will make mistakes. We are not capable of fulfilling all the works perfectly. None of us is perfectly righteous.

For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin.
Ecclesiastes 7:20 NKJV

10 As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
Romans 3:10-12 NKJV

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:8 NKJV
Notice that John included himself in this.

 

[JackrabbitSlim]

And what do you say when the works don’t match the salvation?

Works will never "match" salvation.

 

[donadams]

Agreed.
Do you agree with me that sinners are unbelievers?
Most of your kindly supplied scriptures make my case.

All men have the ability to be sinners

 

[JackrabbitSlim]

Works will never "match" salvation.

If one believes they have to work for salvation, they;
(1) Deny the sufficiency of the works of Christ on the cross.
(2) Struggles to "grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

 

[jaybo]

Regarding the OP: James wrote that "works" are the result of salvation, not the cause.

James 1:25, "But those who look into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and persevere, being not hearers who forget but doers who act—they will be blessed in their doing."

James 1:27, "Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself unstained by the world."

 

[WIP]

All men have the ability to be sinners

Not only do we have the ability but we all do sin, even when we refuse to admit or acknowledge it, as I pointed out in post $427 above.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Works will never "match" salvation.

That doesn’t answer the question.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We are all fallible. We will make mistakes. We are not capable of fulfilling all the works perfectly. None of us is perfectly righteous.

For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin.
Ecclesiastes 7:20 NKJV

10 As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
Romans 3:10-12 NKJV

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:8 NKJV
Notice that John included himself in this.

And when Jesus said to judge a tree by it’s fruit, should we abandon that entirely telling ourselves that no one is perfect so essentially works don’t matter? Do you see the problem with a casual attitude towards a lack of works?

What I think is this, works matter to God (and man.) The goal is not avoiding hell after a life of enjoyment. The goal is being like Jesus. If we realize this, it changes the ease with which we accept a lack of works. Now one can arrive in heaven being poor, blind and naked but the loss will be felt.

Of course being like Jesus is NOT accomplished by setting up a list of rules or doing what YOU think are good works. It’s being obedient. That is not a do-it-yourself righteousness and yet it won’t happen at all if we just wait for God to make us want to obey enough so that it’s painless. It’s called dying to self.

 

[Hopeful]

Don't you understand you're using circular reasoning to make your point?

Call it anything you like, as long as the point is understood.
Non-sinners don't commit sin.
They can be in error about an understanding too, without sin.

You're saying we know the saved Galatians weren't sinning because saved people don't sin. That's called circular reasoning. You're using what you want to defend to prove what you want to defend.

I'm saying the faithful Galatians weren't sinning because faithful people don't commit sin.
Why doesn't that make sense to you?
If anyone was sinning, they were the unfaithful.

We know it was the saved Galatians themselves that were keeping the Mosaic festival cycle for the purpose of justification, and thus, sinning, because it is the saved, Spirit filled Galatians whom Paul is addressing in the letter about this matter.

Even if it was, Paul wrote them enough correction to get them on the right track.
Their zeal to please God had caused them to do the unnecessary.
I suppose the visiting Judaizers must have been very highly esteemed.
That should teach us to examine closely every teacher we listen to and not assume everything any man says is really of God.
I thank God for giving the converted of His Spirit.

No, that is not circular reasoning.

This would make it circular reasoning:

White people can't be black because white people can't be black.

And that's the kind of reasoning you're employing in your argument:

Saved people can't sin because saved people can't sin.

OK then, let be straighten it out.
The Galatians who were sinners, (if they were sinners), were not in or of Christ.

 

[Hopeful]

Then surely you have some way for this to not mean what it says, right?

24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.
John 5:24

The judgement of our belief will occur on the last day.
What one believes today may change in a month, or year.

 

[Hopeful]

And so there are unsaved people in Christ?

The only people "in Christ" are those whose names will be found in the book of life on the last day.

No, I'm not saying there is sin in Christ.
The fact there is no sin in Christ is the very reason those in Christ have no sin guilt on their record.

What is "guilt sin" and how is it different from any other rebellion against God?

If a person is not saved then they still have sin debt on their account.

What you label "saved", I call "converted".

So YOU are actually the one who is saying there is sin in Christ because you say there are unsaved people in Christ.

The determination of "saved" will only occur on the day of judgement.
There are no unrepentant, unconverted, unsanctified, unjustified, folks "in Christ".

 

[Hopeful]

Paul was addressing those who received the Spirit (Galatians 3:2-3, 4:31).

Then the supposed sinners were not being addressed.

And if believing another gospel, making Christ of no value to you in justification was a sin for the Corinthians, and it was (1 Corinthians 15:34, 15:14, 15:17), then it is for the Galatians too (Galatians 1:6, 5:2,4).

I don't see "unbelief" as a sin.
It is everything unbelief leads to, that is sin.

 

[Hopeful]

We are all fallible. We will make mistakes. We are not capable of fulfilling all the works perfectly. None of us is perfectly righteous.

For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin.
Ecclesiastes 7:20 NKJV

10 As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
Romans 3:10-12 NKJV

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:8 NKJV
Notice that John included himself in this.

If you continue to hold that belief, you will never be "in Christ".
His death and resurrection made it possible.

 

[Hopeful]

All men have the ability to be sinners

Yes, and all men also have the ability to be non-sinners.
Thanks be to God !