Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Jethro Bodine]

I also had faith in water baptism to do what it was intended to do...immerse me into Christ and into His death and burial. From which I was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)

Your faith did that all by itself.

No expression of faith, no matter how commanded, puts a person into Christ. Faith in the forgiveness of God does that ALL BY ITSELF.

Obedience does not MAKE you a converted person. God's forgiveness received by faith does that, all by itself. If you believe obedience MAKES you a converted person then you believe in a works gospel. A gospel that Paul says can not, and does not justify you (make you righteous).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That doesn't say that unbelief is sin.

They stopped believing the true gospel that Paul had preached to them and by which they were saved and began to believe another gospel. That's unbelief. And Paul told them to stop sinning by believing that other gospel of an unrisen savior. So how is that not saying unbelief is sin?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As nothing can prove that there is no God, I can't even imagine that a real believer who had received the gift of the Holy Ghost would quit believing.

It's hard for me to fathom a true believer not believing anymore. But the Bible does warn us to continue to believe...or else.

I guess it really comes down to how strong your faith really is. People who have the word deeply rooted in them in faith are less likely to have that word uprooted from them by the trials and temptations of life. I think the Parable of the Sower bears this out. The less rooted the word is in a person, the more likely it is going to be uprooted. And vice versa.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When I died, I became free from sin...just as Rom 6:7 stated above.

ALL believers became free from sin when they believed and were converted. But most of us spend a lifetime realizing how true that really is. And so we sit in the cage of our old sin not fully knowing and believing that God has opened the door to the cage and we no longer have to sit there in bondage to that sin. It's a learning process. It's a growth process. Just as the Bible says it is. I mean, it is for most of us.

 

[Hopeful]

They stopped believing the true gospel that Paul had preached to them and by which they were saved and began to believe another gospel. That's unbelief. And Paul told them to stop sinning by believing that other gospel of an unrisen savior. So how is that not saying unbelief is sin?

You are misreading it in order to make your point.
If they don't believe, they never believed.
Unbelief isn't sin: it is everything unbelief enables that is sin.

 

[Hopeful]

ALL believers became free from sin when they believed and were converted. But most of us spend a lifetime realizing how true that really is. And so we sit in the cage of our old sin not fully knowing and believing that God has opened the door to the cage and we no longer have to sit there in bondage to that sin. It's a learning process. It's a growth process. Just as the Bible says it is. I mean, it is for most of us.

Thank God for sending us preachers, teachers, and bishops, so we don't stew in our juices very long.
If it takes a life time for someone to be free, it is clear they didn't believe the message...or didn't want to believe it.
Plenty of believers will not enter into eternal life.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If they don't believe, they never believed.

That is a presupposition that you are reading into the text.

Paul said right in the beginning of the chapter that they received his gospel and were saved. He's speaking to saved people.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain (if Christ is not really risen from the dead - see context).

 

[Hopeful]

That is a presupposition that you are reading into the text.

Paul said right in the beginning of the chapter that they received his gospel and were saved. He's speaking to saved people.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain (if Christ is not really risen from the dead - see context).

Thank you for your POV.
If they are already saved, why the "if"?
Because the day of judgement has not yet occurred wherein all men's faith will be judged.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If they are already saved, why the "if"?

See, you're doing what people who believe in OSAS usually do. Theologically, you instantly define 'saved' (or in your case, 'converted') as 'permanently saved/converted'. And so when you see passages like 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 you instantly filter it through that preconceived understanding and so you can't reconcile the word 'if' with already being genuinely saved, and so you reject it.

If you would just dismiss that preconceived definition and allow the scriptures to speak for themselves you'll see that what is being said is they will remain saved as long as they hold fast in faith to the gospel by which they were/are saved. But you'll never see it as long as you insist on only defining salvation/conversion as a permanent, unchangeable state (one yet to come in your particular theology). That's called an 'indoctrination', in every negative sense of the word. And it's causing you to erroneously dismiss any suggestion in scripture that might otherwise show you that salvation is spoken of as being real time, right now, and will remain so under condition of continued believing.

 

[Hopeful]

See, you're doing what people who believe in OSAS usually do. Theologically, you instantly define 'saved' (or in your case, 'converted') as 'permanently saved/converted'. And so when you see passages like 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 you instantly filter it through that preconceived understanding and so you can't reconcile the word 'if' with already being genuinely saved, and so you reject it.

I see.
It is like a blonde girl dying her hair black.
She will be raven haired as long as (if) she keeps dying her hair.
I can agree with that.
What you fail to see though, is that she can at any time undo her change.
So can professing Christians.
Salvation won't be assured until the day of redemption/judgement.

If you would just dismiss that preconceived definition and allow the scriptures to speak for themselves you'll see that what is being said is they will remain saved as long as they hold fast in faith to the gospel by which they were/are saved.

Agreed..."as long as you hold..."

But you'll never see it as long as you insist on only defining salvation/conversion as a permanent, unchangeable state (one yet to come in your particular theology). That's called an 'indoctrination', in every negative sense of the word. And it's causing you to erroneously dismiss any suggestion in scripture that might otherwise show you that salvation is spoken of as being real time, right now, and will remain so under condition of continued believing.

No point of view on this will matter until the day of judgement.
As Jesus said..."Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." (Matt 6:34)
Keep holy today.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I see.
It is like a blonde girl dying her hair black.
She will be raven haired as long as (if) she keeps dying her hair.
I can agree with that.
What you fail to see though, is that she can at any time undo her change.
So can professing Christians.
Salvation won't be assured until the day of redemption/judgement.

Your salvation THROUGH THE FLAMES OF THE FINAL JUDGMENT is what is not assured until that time comes. I mean, it is assured if you do what the author of Hebrews and Peter say to do to make it assured! But your present salvation, and the promise of safe passage through the final wrath of God and entrance into the kingdom, is in fact very real in the meantime as long as you are believing.

Just because continued salvation is conditioned on continued believing doesn't mean you're not really saved. It only means that to someone who has erroneously defined salvation as 'permanent'. That preconceived notion will keep a person from seeing the passages of scripture that talk about presently saved people staying saved on condition of continued believing. Remove that preconceived notion that salvation means permanent salvation and you'll see what the scriptures actually say about this.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I see.
It is like a blonde girl dying her hair black.
She will be raven haired as long as (if) she keeps dying her hair.
I can agree with that.
What you fail to see though, is that she can at any time undo her change.

I'm not failing to see that at all. I'm plainly saying she can change it at any time! You think I'm failing to see it because you're projecting onto me your belief that a person can't change the color of their hair once it's black and so you think I'm supposed to see that.

Let's use your analogy (as I was reading it I thought to myself it's a good one, and I was delighted to see that you agree with it). Black hair is analogous to what one must possess in order to be saved. A conversion, if you will. She's converted...her hair really is black. She has satisfied the condition to be a black haired (saved/converted) person. That's what defines a black haired (saved/converted) person! She's not waiting to become one, she already is one!

But if out of neglect she lets the blonde roots grow out until she has no more black hair she is no longer a converted person. She must remain a black haired (saved/converted) girl in order to be saved through the coming judgement where blondes get separated from black haired girls. She's not going to become a black haired (saved/converted) person at that final judgment. She is going to be judged as being that already.

 

[Hopeful]

Your salvation THROUGH THE FLAMES OF THE FINAL JUDGMENT is what is not assured until that time comes. I mean, it is assured if you do what the author of Hebrews and Peter say to do to make it assured! But your present salvation, and the promise of safe passage through the final wrath of God and entrance into the kingdom, is in fact very real in the meantime as long as you are believing.

I agree, as long as...
But who really knows what tomorrow may bring?

Just because continued salvation is conditioned on continued believing doesn't mean you're not really saved. It only means that to someone who has erroneously defined salvation as 'permanent'. That preconceived notion will keep a person from seeing the passages of scripture that talk about presently saved people staying saved on condition of continued believing. Remove that preconceived notion that salvation means permanent salvation and you'll see what the scriptures actually say about this.

I will remember to ask if the person means "permanently saved", when I encounter the subject again.

 

[Hopeful]

I'm not failing to see that at all. I'm plainly saying she can change it at any time! You think I'm failing to see it because you're projecting onto me your belief that a person can't change the color of their hair once it's black and so you think I'm supposed to see that.

Let's use your analogy (as I was reading it I thought to myself it's a good one, and I was delighted to see that you agree with it). Black hair is analogous to what one must possess in order to be saved. A conversion, if you will. She's converted...her hair really is black. She has satisfied the condition to be a black haired (saved/converted) person. That's what defines a black haired (saved/converted) person! She's not waiting to become one, she already is one!

But if out of neglect she lets the blonde roots grow out until she has no more black hair she is no longer a converted person. She must remain a black haired (saved/converted) girl in order to be saved through the coming judgement where blondes get separated from black haired girls. She's not going to become a black haired (saved/converted) person at that final judgment. She is going to be judged as being that already.

Answered to in last post.
"Permanently converted".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree, as long as...
But who really knows what tomorrow may bring?

How does what happens tomorrow make it so a believer isn't saved today?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I will remember to ask if the person means "permanently saved", when I encounter the subject again.

When you see salvation referred to in the present tense in scripture do you understand that to mean presently, permanently, and unchangeably saved?

 

[donadams]

...and everybody "in Christ".

Christian’s are incapable of committing sin?

 

[Hopeful]

How does what happens tomorrow make it so a believer isn't saved today?

I imagine Judas Iscariot is the best example of that.
He was sailing along with the Christ one day, and the next he betrays Him.
Had he not betrayed Him, he would have remained in the book of life.
Salvation won't be assured until the final judgement.
Nobody "is" saved yesterday.

 

[Hopeful]

When you see salvation referred to in the present tense in scripture do you understand that to mean presently, permanently, and unchangeably saved?

No.
It usually refers to a temporary state.
I think of the OT woman Jesus said..."they faith hath saved you". (Luke 7:37-50)
If she returned to her sins, she certainly won't be saved on the day of judgement.
Her "saved" is contingent on her continued repentance from sin.

 

[Hopeful]

Christian’s are incapable of committing sin?

That is correct.
If an oak tree is killed and reborn as a tomato plant, will it ever bring forth acorns again?
NO, of course not.
So, as we have killed the old man and been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life, (Rom 6:3-7), reborn of God's seed, (1 John 3:9), how can we continue to bring forth the fruit of Adam?
Sin manifests a false repentance from sin, and we can't forge any relationship with God that is based on a lie. (1 John 1:6)