Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[JackrabbitSlim]

That is correct.
If an oak tree is killed and reborn as a tomato plant, will it ever bring forth acorns again?
NO, of course not.
So, as we have killed the old man and been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life, (Rom 6:3-7), reborn of God's seed, (1 John 3:9), how can we continue to bring forth the fruit of Adam?
Sin manifests a false repentance from sin, and we can't forge any relationship with God that is based on a lie. (1 John 1:6)

Curious, do you commit sins?
How is one to grow Spiritually if they lose salvation everytime they sin? If they go x amount of time without sinning, do they start all over again, losing that growth? What then is the purpose of the Christian life? I am genuinely curious.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Nobody "is" saved yesterday.

No, it's 'today'.
People are saved today.
1 Corinthians 15:2 - Presently holding fast/ presently saved. Clear as day.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think of the OT woman Jesus said..."they faith hath saved you". (Luke 7:37-50)
If she returned to her sins, she certainly won't be saved on the day of judgement.
Her "saved" is contingent on her continued repentance from sin.

Her CONTINUED salvation is contingent on her continued belief.

 

[Hopeful]

Curious, do you commit sins?

No.
I have been reborn of God's seed so can't bring forth the fruit of the devil...thanks be to God !

How is one to grow Spiritually if they lose salvation everytime they sin?

They can't.
They need to actually and permanently turn from sin (repent of sin) in order to even start to grow.

If they go x amount of time without sinning, do they start all over again, losing that growth? What then is the purpose of the Christian life? I am genuinely curious.

People who continue to commit sin are not living a Christian life, so whatever constitutes growth is relegated to simple knowledge.
Lots of really evil men know a considerable amount about Christianity and Jesus' commandments, but their hearts are dedicated to pleasing themselves.

 

[Hopeful]

No, it's 'today'.
People are saved today.
1 Corinthians 15:2 - Presently holding fast/ presently saved. Clear as day.

You are misreading the verse in order to boost your POV.
"By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." (1 Cor 15:2)
"By which you are saved" is dependent on the next part of the verse..."if you..."
If Paul was writing to already saved people, it wouldn't be dependent on anything.

 

[Hopeful]

Her CONTINUED salvation is contingent on her continued belief.

I the long run, our POVs matter not, as salvation won't be granted until the final judgement.
One can say they are "on the road to salvation" now, but they must remain on the road or will lose it all.

 

[JackrabbitSlim]

No.
I have been reborn of God's seed so can't bring forth the fruit of the devil...thanks be to God !

1 John 1:8 (NASB95): "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

The verb "have", in Greek is "ἔχομεν" (echomen) and, is in the present, active, indictive, first person plural (we have). This means, the author of the above verse, and the recipients had, after salvation, sin.

1 John 1:10 (NASB95): "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us."

The adverb "not" in Greek is οὐχ (ouch) is a negative, participle. This is a past tense (have not). Notice the current "have sin" in this verse 8, vs. "have not" sinned in verse 10. Clearly, sin can occur after salvation. To say you do not sin, I refer you back to the last part of verse 8.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I the long run, our POVs matter not, as salvation won't be granted until the final judgement.
One can say they are "on the road to salvation" now, but they must remain on the road or will lose it all.

That's ridiculous thinking to say you can't be saved today if there is the potential that you won't be saved tomorrow. I mean, come on, just because you may get caught up in a raging torrent, again, some time in the future doesn't mean you aren't saved from the one you just got rescued from.

You keep ignoring the Bible's own statements of fact that salvation is present tense. Like this one:

1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV
18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

'Are saved' is in the present tense. But you claim that is not true of anybody, yet. Should we listen to you, or the Bible?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are misreading the verse in order to boost your POV.
"By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." (1 Cor 15:2)
"By which you are saved" is dependent on the next part of the verse..."if you..."
If Paul was writing to already saved people, it wouldn't be dependent on anything.

If you meet the condition of present believing you are presently saved. That is literally what it's saying. Anybody can check the tenses of the Greek verbs out for themselves: "By which you are (presently) saved" is dependent on "if you keep in memory (present tense) what I preached unto you." I challenge you to refute what I'm saying with a Strong's concordance.

Here's where I got my information:

1 Corinthians 15 :: King James Version (KJV)

1 Corinthians 15 - Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

www.blueletterbible.org

Anybody can check and see that what I'm saying is correct.

Please produce some proof that what you're saying is correct and which shows I'm wrong.

 

[Hopeful]

1 John 1:8 (NASB95): "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
The verb "have", in Greek is "ἔχομεν" (echomen) and, is in the present, active, indictive, first person plural (we have). This means, the author of the above verse, and the recipients had, after salvation, sin.

Thanks, but I have seen all of that before.
John is using an A-B, A-B, A-B format in 1 John 1.
Like Paul uses in Rom 8, where he juxtaposes those in the flesh with those who are in the Spirit.
John, however, is juxtaposing those who walk in darkness with those who walk in the light...which is God.
Verses 6, 8, and 10 address those walking in darkness-sin.
Verses 5, 7, and 9 address those who walk in the light-God.
As there is no sin in God, neither can there be sin in those who are walking in Him.
Those walking in darkness cannot honestly say they have no sin.
Those walking in the light, (v7), can say they have no sin because there is no sin in the light !

1 John 1:10 (NASB95): "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us."
The adverb "not" in Greek is οὐχ (ouch) is a negative, participle. This is a past tense (have not). Notice the current "have sin" in this verse 8, vs. "have not" sinned in verse 10. Clearly, sin can occur after salvation. To say you do not sin, I refer you back to the last part of verse 8.

Same as verse 8, addressed to those who walk in darkness.

Jesus died to take away our sins.
If your POV is true, He failed to do His job.
I thank God for His success.

 

[Hopeful]

That's ridiculous thinking to say you can't be saved today if there is the potential that you won't be saved tomorrow. I mean, come on, just because you may get caught up in a raging torrent, again, some time in the future doesn't mean you aren't saved from the one you just got rescued from.
You keep ignoring the Bible's own statements of fact that salvation is present tense. Like this one:
1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV
18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
'Are saved' is in the present tense. But you claim that is not true of anybody, yet. Should we listen to you, or the Bible?

Better question...can we risk losing our edge while we wait for judgement?
Those who think they are saved now, lose that edge.
They get lax, lazy, and unwary.
And in the end are told..."I never knew you, depart from me ye workers of iniquity".

 

[Hopeful]

If you meet the condition of present believing you are presently saved. That is literally what it's saying. Anybody can check the tenses of the Greek verbs out for themselves: "By which you are (presently) saved" is dependent on "if you keep in memory (present tense) what I preached unto you." I challenge you to refute what I'm saying with a Strong's concordance.
Here's where I got my information:

1 Corinthians 15 :: King James Version (KJV)

1 Corinthians 15 - Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

www.blueletterbible.org

Anybody can check and see that what I'm saying is correct.
Please produce some proof that what you're saying is correct and which shows I'm wrong.

I will not usurp God's final judgement by declaring something still to be determined.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I will not usurp God's final judgement by declaring something still to be determined.

YOU don't usurp anything. God has already declared the believing person saved, right now, in this life:

24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.
John 5:24

Just because the continued possession of it is conditional on continued believing doesn't mean you don't really have it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Better question...can we risk losing our edge while we wait for judgement?
Those who think they are saved now, lose that edge.
They get lax, lazy, and unwary.
And in the end are told..."I never knew you, depart from me ye workers of iniquity".

What about those who weren't workers of iniquity, but rather workers of righteousness, but then later fell away and worked iniquity? I.E. the Galatians.

This is leading somewhere. Let's follow the trail.

 

[donadams]

That is correct.
If an oak tree is killed and reborn as a tomato plant, will it ever bring forth acorns again?
NO, of course not.
So, as we have killed the old man and been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life, (Rom 6:3-7), reborn of God's seed, (1 John 3:9), how can we continue to bring forth the fruit of Adam?
Sin manifests a false repentance from sin, and we can't forge any relationship with God that is based on a lie. (1 John 1:6)

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake

1 pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;


Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake

1 pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;


Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

God does not impute his righteousness to you in exchange for faithful suffering. But that is what Catholics believe. That's why Catholicism is a works gospel. A gospel that can not save.

 

[Hopeful]

YOU don't usurp anything. God has already declared the believing person saved, right now, in this life:

24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.
John 5:24

Just because the continued possession of it is conditional on continued believing doesn't mean you don't really have it.

I pray you can continue to "possess it".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I pray you can continue to "possess it".

As long as I continue to believe, through the gift of faith God has provided, I will indeed continue to possess the eternal life and salvation I now possess. Likewise for you and every other believer.

 

[Hopeful]

What about those who weren't workers of iniquity, but rather workers of righteousness, but then later fell away and worked iniquity? I.E. the Galatians.

If one commits a sin, it witnesses that they are not reborn of God's seed.
Seed that cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil. (1 John 3:9-10)

This is leading somewhere. Let's follow the trail.

Let's !
Or start the pertinent thread.

 

[Hopeful]

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake
1 Pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Good verses.
Do you have a point to make?