Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Hopeful]

You're in denial.
I showed you where Peter talks about progressing in the traits of the Spirit he lists.

Progressing in the "traits" isn't growth in holiness.
It is growth in grace and knowledge.

I showed you where Paul talks about growing and maturing in obedience.
Plain words for plain people.
You're in denial.
I will go so far as to say you are in a cult...whatever it is that this group you're associated with is.

I deny that I can be made "more" sanctified than what God has already accomplished by the blood of Christ.
I deny that my previous life in sin would have resulted in my salvation.
I deny that God is in any liar, thief, or adulterer.
I deny that any thief, liar, or adulterer is "in Christ".
I am in denial alright !

 

[Hopeful]

Uh, no, lol.

They aren't a non-smoker.
That makes them a smoker.

 

[Hopeful]

I want to say you're unacquainted with the realities of what sin is and dealing with the deceitfulness of sin and how it leads us astray like it did Eve (she, who saw God's face, must not have trusted that God was real, right?).

Say whatever you want, and I will measure it against the word of God.
Your above is measured against 1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
Thanks be to God I cannot be tempted above what I can handle !

But what I suspect in your case is you are in denial. You are willingly deceiving yourself about the very sin you say you do not have. That's how sin works. I just don't believe you're 100% sinless and have been from the moment you believed. I just don't. And I don't apologize for it. You do not represent the Christianity found in our Bibles. Your experience contradicts the words of scripture so it must be rejected.

Is the "Christianity in the bible" just like the Jews of the OT?
Sin-repent, sin-repent, sin-repent, unto oblivion ?
No, as God made us better by rebirth and His Spirit.

 

[Hopeful]

And so you never know if you have the Spirit in you because there is always tomorrow to reveal that what you think is true about yourself and your relationship with God really hasn't been true all along. What a horrible existence. You can't know that the God that you think you know and answers your prayers is real until you die.

Nah, as I have the rejections of the devil, sin, and temptation, everyday to remind me how far the Lord has already led me.
That and the gift of tongues and memories of His words and revelations to me.
Thanks be to God.

No thanks. I'll go with the loving God in scripture who raises up his children and brings them to maturity through all the bumps on the living room coffee table and all the skinned knees. That's the God of love I know and which scripture reveals. You have not met him yet.

If all your bumps and skinned knees are sin cloaked in analogies, your loving god must not love you very much.
Mine allows me to walk in the light, wherein is no stumbling.
It is written..."This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5)
And..."But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7)

It is written..."Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world." (John 11:9-10)
10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him." (John 11:9-10)
And..."Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." (John 8:12)

Walk in the light.

 

[Hopeful]

We have been talking about the perfection and completeness of obedience here. Why did you feel it necessary to deviate from that and talk about physical perfection and completeness? I said nothing about that.

It was my response to your weird notion.

 

[Hopeful]

I referred to Paul's exhortation to renew the mind.
A renewal that you say you do not need. And, as a Christian, never did!

I obeyed his exhortation and turned from sin, got water baptized in the name of Jesu Christ for the remission of my past sins and was reborn...with a new mind.
My mind has been renewed, thanks be to God !

The flesh is 'reckoned' to be dead.
Do you know what that means?
It doesn't not mean your flesh is actually dead.
It means you consider it dead.

Why won't you?

 

[Hopeful]

Why is Paul telling you to renew a dead mind that you say you already have?
You don't seem to be getting this.

You can't seem to keep things in order.
Not everyone who heard Paul's letters being read had been reborn.

 

[Hopeful]

No, not always.

We have the account in the Bible of Cornelius and his family and literally countless born again Christians to show us God was not making a hard and fast legalistic rule for receiving the Holy Spirit/salvation at water baptism.

What do you suppose the time gap was between Cornelius' baptism of the Holy Spirit and his water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins?
Ten or fifteen minutes?
An hour?
This was a one time event to impress those accompanying Peter that God accepted the Gentiles as well as the Israelites.

If the blood of the sacred Lamb was not necessary for the remission of past sins, then Jesus died in vain.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What do you suppose the time gap was between Cornelius' baptism of the Holy Spirit and his water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins?
Ten or fifteen minutes?
An hour?

Yes.

This was a one time event to impress those accompanying Peter that God accepted the Gentiles as well as the Israelites.

It doesn't say that. You can only surmise that from the text. Peter went there to tell them the gospel and baptize them (that's how he evangelized). God could have just as easily showed him then.

What his account shows us is God did not intend for the Spirit to be given exclusively at water baptism. Despite the fact water baptism is a commanded obedience, we have millions and millions of people, literally uncountable, to show that God can, and does give the Spirit when a person believes, before their baptism, and does not reserve that event exclusively for water baptism. The account of Cornelius prevents anyone from discrediting that experience, when it happens.

If the blood of the sacred Lamb was not necessary for the remission of past sins, then Jesus died in vain.

If you have to get wet to have your sin remitted, the blood of Christ received by faith is not sufficient to remit sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why is Paul telling you to renew a dead mind that you say you already have?

Not everyone who heard Paul's letters being read had been reborn.

Ah, yes. The convenient argument used to dismiss a Biblical passage from applying to believers in order to preserve a theology.

It's easy to see right in the context that he is addressing Spirit filled, gifted believers, not exhorting unbelievers to become Spirit filled, gifted believers:


2Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.

3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but think of yourself with sober judgment, according to the measure of faith God has given you.
Romans 12:2-3


He's saying to "every one of you" to be transformed by the renewing of your mind. The renewing of the mind you say you and every other true born again believer does not need because there is no growth curve or progression in obedience and that born again people start out with the perfectly and completely renewed mind that never sins because it can not sin.

So, based on the emboldened text above we can dismiss your assertion because it is 'false'. He is NOT talking to only the not born again unbelievers in the congregation. He is talking to 'everyone'. He said so himself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I obeyed his exhortation and turned from sin, got water baptized in the name of Jesu Christ for the remission of my past sins and was reborn...with a new mind.
My mind has been renewed, thanks be to God !

Don't be fooled.
Listen to Paul and be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
You didn't start out that way.
No born again person does.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why won't you?

I do consider my flesh dead, more and more as I progress in this process of maturing and growing up to look like my Dad. That's how I know I am truly his. I look like him more and more. Like any child, it's a process, not a perfectly complete and instantaneous change that occurred the moment I believed. 2 Peter 1:8

If I stop growing in the traits of the Spirit, that is when I need to be concerned about having fallen into unbelief, forfeiting the inheritance that I have through faith in God's forgiveness- 2 Peter 1:9

 

[Hopeful]

What do you suppose the time gap was between Cornelius' baptism of the Holy Spirit and his water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins?
Ten or fifteen minutes?
An hour?
This was a one time event to impress those accompanying Peter that God accepted the Gentiles as well as the Israelites.

Yes.

It doesn't say that. You can only surmise that from the text. Peter went there to tell them the gospel and baptize them (that's how he evangelized). God could have just as easily showed him then.

Indeed, but in the following chapter, Peter's reprisal of events makes it clear, especially Acts 11:18..."When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."

What his account shows us is God did not intend for the Spirit to be given exclusively at water baptism.

I agree completely, as the repentance from sin is the real deal breaker.
In Acts 2:38 Peter led with repentance of sin, followed by water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...THEN the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Despite the fact water baptism is a commanded obedience, we have millions and millions of people, literally uncountable, to show that God can, and does give the Spirit when a person believes, before their baptism,

Show any in the bible, other than Cornelius' household.
Where do you get "millions"?

and does not reserve that event exclusively for water baptism. The account of Cornelius prevents anyone from discrediting that experience, when it happens.

If you have to get wet to have your sin remitted, the blood of Christ received by faith is not sufficient to remit sin.

The "wet" is the blood of Christ. (1 John 5:8)
It is the crucifixion. (Gal 5:24)
It is the grave.
It is the burial. (Rom 6:3-5)
It is multi-faceted.

 

[Hopeful]

Ah, yes. The convenient argument used to dismiss a Biblical passage from applying to believers in order to preserve a theology.

It's easy to see right in the context that he is addressing Spirit filled, gifted believers, not exhorting unbelievers to become Spirit filled, gifted believers:


2Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.

3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but think of yourself with sober judgment, according to the measure of faith God has given you.
Romans 12:2-3


He's saying to "every one of you" to be transformed by the renewing of your mind. The renewing of the mind you say you and every other true born again believer does not need because there is no growth curve or progression in obedience and that born again people start out with the perfectly and completely renewed mind that never sins because it can not sin.

So, based on the emboldened text above we can dismiss your assertion because it is 'false'. He is NOT talking to only the not born again unbelievers in the congregation. He is talking to 'everyone'. He said so himself.

What happens to those who disobey Paul's exhortation?
Won't they be "cast away" in the end?
If they had not yet obeyed at the time this was read to the church, had they been converted?
I think the answer is NO.

 

[Hopeful]

Don't be fooled.
Listen to Paul and be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
You didn't start out that way.
No born again person does.

You don't give much credit to God's gift of rebirth.

 

[Hopeful]

I do consider my flesh dead, more and more as I progress in this process of maturing and growing up to look like my Dad. That's how I know I am truly his. I look like him more and more. Like any child, it's a process, not a perfectly complete and instantaneous change that occurred the moment I believed. 2 Peter 1:8

It is either dead or it is alive.
You can't make it "more" dead.

If I stop growing in the traits of the Spirit, that is when I need to be concerned about having fallen into unbelief, forfeiting the inheritance that I have through faith in God's forgiveness- 2 Peter 1:9

If one doesn't manifest the works Peter admonished us to excel at, we are dead.

 

[JLB]

Answer: James 2:24 is not for the Christian Church, that's the solution, it's for Tribulation Jews! - Dr. Gene Kim

The twelve tribes who happen to be believers in Jesus Christ are are part of the Christian Church.

James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad:
Greetings.
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. James 1:1-3

My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. James 2:1




JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is either dead or it is alive.
You can't make it "more" dead.

You show that you still don't understand that the flesh isn't actually dead. You RECKON it dead (Romans 6:11), powerless to make you submit to it by force of law (1 Corinthians 15:56), like how a woman has to submit to her husband by reason of law.

The more and more a believer understands this the more and more they will resist the voice of the flesh commanding them to submit to it's desires. The believer learns more and more to say to ex-husband 'flesh, "I don't have to submit to your desires anymore because you died on the cross and so my 'marital' relationship with you has legally ended and now I'm legally married to Jesus and submit to His desires. Romans 7:1-6

 

[Hopeful]

You show that you still don't understand that the flesh isn't actually dead. You RECKON it dead (Romans 6:11), powerless to make you submit to it by force of law (1 Corinthians 15:56), like how a woman has to submit to her husband by reason of law.

Do you still commit sin?
If you do, isn't it because your "belief" is only "reckoned"?
I believe I was actually killed with Christ at my "immersion" into Christ and into His death. (Rom 6:2-3)
My "flesh" was crucified. (Gal 5:24)
My "flesh" was destroyed. (Rom 6:6)
I am a new creature now. (2 Cor 5:17)

The more and more a believer understands this the more and more they will resist the voice of the flesh commanding them to submit to it's desires. The believer learns more and more to say to ex-husband 'flesh, "I don't have to submit to your desires anymore because you died on the cross and so my 'marital' relationship with you has legally ended and now I'm legally married to Jesus and submit to His desires. Romans 7:1-6

More "gradual Christianity", eh?

 

[JLB]

Do you still commit sin?
If you do, isn't it because your "belief" is only "reckoned"?
I believe I was actually killed with Christ at my "immersion" into Christ and into His death. (Rom 6:2-3)
My "flesh" was crucified. (Gal 5:24)
My "flesh" was destroyed. (Rom 6:6)
I am a new creature now. (2 Cor 5:17)

More "gradual Christianity", eh?

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

Paul wrote this to water baptized Christians.

Like Jethro Bodine said, we have the power of the Holy Spirit to resist the sinful impulses that emanate from our flesh, that desire to gratify its lustful cravings.



JLB