Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Jethro Bodine]

I'ld like you to show where I said true believers will fall away.
Only posers "fall away".

In post 812 you said you were in agreement with what I said about a person forfeiting the Spirit by returning to unbelief.

 

[JLB]

It is written..."For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Heb 6:4-6)
Know why they can't "repent again"?
Because they didn't repent the first time.

to renew them again unto repentance

Again, you reject the truth of the scriptures in favor of your denominational doctrine.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As God promises that no man will be tempted more than they can handle, we can always escape.

No, Paul did not say we are promised that we'd always use the escape that God has provided for the sin you can withstand. He said that God will not allow a temptation that you can not resist and provides a way out of the temptation. Paul was not wrong. The problem is sometimes Christians don't avail themselves of the escape God has provided.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where else did it ever get written about?

Why does it need to be written about more than once for it to show us that my reason for the Spirit not being given at their water baptism is more logical than yours?

Truthfully, I'm weary of people blindly following made up doctrines of men and using the 'it doesn't have to make sense' defense for believing those doctrines and discarding the more plain and logical understanding. This a perfect example. There's no reason why God couldn't show Peter that he accepted the Gentiles, too, by giving them the Spirit at their water baptism. That being true, we can instead see that what God is showing is that receiving the Holy Spirit is not legalistically tied to the work of water baptism.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God can put water where it is needed, as He did for Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch.
Don't make excuses that are not needed.

But he doesn't, so your argument is a fail.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I will obey Peter's exhortation before I believe some man's "take" on it.
You should too.

The story of Cornelius and how and when he and his family got the Spirit is not "some man's take on it". It's recorded scripture. And my reason for why it happened is more logical than yours.

 

[WIP]

No, Paul did not say we are promised that we'd always use the escape that God has provided for the sin you can withstand. He said that God will not allow a temptation that you can not resist and provides a way out of the temptation. Paul was not wrong. The problem is sometimes Christians don't avail themselves of the escape God has provided.

Reminds me of the fellow who was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help.
Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, “Jump in, I can save you.”
The stranded fellow shouted back, “No, it’s OK, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me.”
So the rowboat went on.
Then a motorboat came by. “The fellow in the motorboat shouted, “Jump in, I can save you.”
To this the stranded man said, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.”
So the motorboat went on.
Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, “Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety.”
To this the stranded man again replied, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.”
So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.
Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, “I had faith in you but you didn’t save me, you let me drown. I don’t understand why!”

To this God replied, “I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?”

 

[Hopeful]

Absolutely Yes.

Have you ever caught your fingers trying to get into the cash register while you were at the store?
Has your foot ever kicked someone while you sat in a restaurant?
Why have there never been any arms or legs arrested for inciting violence?
Skin and bones are at the discretion of the mind.
You cannot blame them for sin.

For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:17

Does your skin and bones have more power than your, or God's, Spirit?

you = mind, brain, soul, inner man

Agreed, and all are in subjection to God, whose Spirit is inside of and guiding me.

You have chosen to exalt the teachings of your denomination over the truth of the scriptures.

I have chosen to obey God at all costs.
Your denominations teachings say that your skin and bones can control your mind.
I find that idea ludicrous.
I find that you see the Gal 5:17 verse through the perspective of those still serving the flesh.
There is freedom from that POV.
View it through the perspective of those walking in the Spirit.
And keep it in the context of Gal 5:16.

 

[Hopeful]

No, Paul did not say we are promised that we'd always use the escape that God has provided for the sin you can withstand. He said that God will not allow a temptation that you can not resist and provides a way out of the temptation. Paul was not wrong. The problem is sometimes Christians don't avail themselves of the escape God has provided.

They who don't use the promised escapes God provides, are not God's children.

 

[Hopeful]

Why does it need to be written about more than once for it to show us that my reason for the Spirit not being given at their water baptism is more logical than yours?

Because it is only written about once while repentance and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission for past sins is written about numerous times.
The twelve at Ephesus, and the Samarians are perfect examples of folks who did not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, regardless of their prior doings.

Truthfully, I'm weary of people blindly following made up doctrines of men and using the 'it doesn't have to make sense' defense for believing those doctrines and discarding the more plain and logical understanding

So am I !

. This a perfect example. There's no reason why God couldn't show Peter that he accepted the Gentiles, too, by giving them the Spirit at their water baptism. That being true, we can instead see that what God is showing is that receiving the Holy Spirit is not legalistically tied to the work of water baptism.

Where were any Gentiles water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins before Cornelius?
He was the first !
His experience was to show the Jews that God will accept Gentiles too.
It was only necessary once.

 

[Hopeful]

But he doesn't, so your argument is a fail.

He did for the Ethiopian.
He has always provided water for us to baptize, and we live in a desert too.

 

[Hopeful]

The story of Cornelius and how and when he and his family got the Spirit is not "some man's take on it". It's recorded scripture. And my reason for why it happened is more logical than yours.

Your perspective, what you have chosen to believe, is your "take".
The incident in Acts 10 is recorded scripture, but your interpretation of it isn't recorded scripture.

 

[JLB]

Have you ever caught your fingers trying to get into the cash register while you were at the store?
Has your foot ever kicked someone while you sat in a restaurant?
Why have there never been any arms or legs arrested for inciting violence?
Skin and bones are at the discretion of the mind.
You cannot blame them for sin.

The flesh, the physical body of born again, water baptized Christians contains sin. Paul is writing to such and admonishes these Christians to walk in the Spirit, SO THAT they (the ones he is admonishing to walk in the Spirit) do not fulfill the sinful cravings of their flesh.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:16-17

Once again it is blatantly evident that you are ignoring the plain undeniable words of truth, and exalting your predetermined mindset (stronghold) that was framed by your denominational teaching against the knowledge of God.



JLB

 

[JLB]

He did for the Ethiopian.
He has always provided water for us to baptize, and we live in a desert too.

The scripture records that the Ethiopian was not baptized with the Holy Spirit.

The scripture records that Phillip did indeed baptize Samaria as they received his message of salvation, but they didn’t receive the Holy Spirit under the ministry of Phillip.

The scripture records that Peter and John had to come down from Jerusalem to lay hands on them because they had only been baptized in the name of Jesus (water baptism).


Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17


The point:

God chose to have Peter and John come down to lay hands on them in order for them to receive the Holy Spirit.

They did not receive the Holy Spirit at water baptism.


At the house of Cornelius, the Lord chose to baptize them with the Holy Spirit apart from the laying on of hands.

Then afterward they were baptized in water.


The common denominator in both is, the baptism with the Holy Spirit did not occur at water baptism.

How the Lord chooses to baptize people with the Spirit is up to Him.





JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your perspective, what you have chosen to believe, is your "take".
The incident in Acts 10 is recorded scripture, but your interpretation of it isn't recorded scripture.

Neither is yours.
I'm making the point that my 'take' is more logical and likely.
Yours has little merit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He did for the Ethiopian.
He has always provided water for us to baptize, and we live in a desert too.

You're making a baseless claim.

I believed and received the Spirit after 10:00 at night in January in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. It was probably below 0°F that night. It was just me and my wife in our living room. When we got into a church we had to wait until March when the YMCA let us use their pool to baptize us and some other new converts.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So am I !

Except when you do that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where were any Gentiles water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins before Cornelius?
He was the first !
His experience was to show the Jews that God will accept Gentiles too.
It was only necessary once.

You can say what you want about it.
My 'take' of why God did it the way he did it for Cornelius is more logical.

I'm thankful that we have his experience recorded in scripture because if it was not then EVERY church would be making water baptism a legalistic work through which one gets saved and receives the Spirit. It's obvious to me that's why God put it in scripture. I did not have to wait until I was water baptized to receive the Spirit. I received it when I believed, not when I was baptized. So your claim falls on deaf ears for me. I know from my own experience, and many others, that your claim is false.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

They who don't use the promised escapes God provides, are not God's children.

Galatians 5:17

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your denominations teachings say that your skin and bones can control your mind.
I find that idea ludicrous.

They can deceive your mind. Hebrews 3:13