Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you still commit sin?
If you do, isn't it because your "belief" is only "reckoned"?

No. I told you it's because the flesh is contrary to the Spirit so that you do not do what you want:

17For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want. Galatians 5:17

Your church does not consider this part of scripture. That's why it erroneously believes what it does about sinless perfection. You have un-rightly divided scripture and created a false doctrine of sinless perfection.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe I was actually killed with Christ at my "immersion" into Christ and into His death. (Rom 6:2-3)

You were not actually killed with Christ. You are quite alive and well. I know because you are participating in this thread.

My "flesh" was crucified. (Gal 5:24)

My "flesh" was destroyed. (Rom 6:6)

The authority of the flesh was crucified on the cross. Not your actual, literal flesh. It's still alive and chaffing against the Spirit "so that you do not do what you want" sometimes (Galatians 5:17).

I am a new creature now. (2 Cor 5:17)

The new creation is the inner man. The new mindset of the Spirit that replaced the old mindset of the flesh. The new creation is NOT your flesh body. It's the same body it was before believing in Christ. But now stripped of it's authority to rule over you, and so the flesh is dead to you in that sense. It is not literally dead.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

More "gradual Christianity", eh?

Actually, the Biblical word for it is pleonazō...

πλεονάζω pleonázō, pleh-on-ad'-zo; from G4119; to do, make or be more, i.e. increase (transitively or intransitively); by extension, to superabound:—abound, abundant, make to increase, have over.*

8For if these things be in you, and abound (pleonazō-increase), they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:8

The Christian who has been set apart to holiness at rebirth abounds more and more in the traits of the Spirit, the actual practice of the holiness he has been set apart to. It's a growth process, not a perfectly complete and instantaneous transformation as your erroneous, un-rightly divided doctrine teaches. I've literally shown you the scripture that says this. It's one of several scriptures that whoever created your doctrine did not take into consideration.

*

G4121 - pleonazō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G4121 - πλεονάζω pleonázō, pleh-on-ad'-zo; from ; to do, make or be more, i.e. increase (transitively or intransitively); by extension, to superabound:—abound, abundant, make to increase, have over.

www.blueletterbible.org

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What happens to those who disobey Paul's exhortation?
Won't they be "cast away" in the end?

Yes, I think they will.

If they had not yet obeyed at the time this was read to the church, had they been converted?
I think the answer is NO.

We're all free to think what we want about that.
I say the person who does not walk after the Spirit may have been never born again, or forfeited the Spirit by returning to unbelief. I do not subscribe to Reformed Theology.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Indeed, but in the following chapter, Peter's reprisal of events makes it clear, especially Acts 11:18..."When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."

This is not in dispute, as it is clearly spelled out for us in scripture. What you can't prove is God gave Cornelius and his family the Spirit before water baptism to make that point. I say the point would have just as clearly been made when Peter saw them receive the Spirit at their water baptism. So there's no reason to think the giving of the Spirit prior to water baptism was done intentionally by God this one time and one time only to show Peter he accepted the gentiles.

That being true, I think the Spirit being given to Cornelius before and apart from water baptism was to show Peter that God did not intend for the giving of the Spirit to be a legalistic procedure. As I say, literally countless Christians show us that God does not legalistically wait until your scheduled water baptism weeks or months after you believe to give you the Holy Spirit. I received the Spirit immediately upon accepting Christ. But what I did receive at my water baptism was power to witness.

Very few people have instant access to water to get baptized when they believe. God was not making a hard and fast, legalistic rule for baptism being the one and only way to get the Holy Spirit when he said, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Besides the Biblical example of Cornelius and his family, simple observation and experience down through the centuries shows us that getting water baptized is not a legalistic formula for receiving the Holy Spirit. The Bible itself proves that. Countless experiences confirm it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Say whatever you want, and I will measure it against the word of God.
Your above is measured against 1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
Thanks be to God I cannot be tempted above what I can handle !

Paul is not saying you'll always escape the temptation of sin. He said God makes a way to escape it. Christians don't always take that escape, for "the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want. " Galatians 5:17.

As they mature, the Christian takes the way of escape from temptation God has provided more quickly and easily as they grow up into the knowledge of God and the salvation they have received. You don't start out mature. No child does. Your doctrine ignores the scriptures that talk about this. I'm showing you these scriptures and you're choosing to ignore them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is the "Christianity in the bible" just like the Jews of the OT?
Sin-repent, sin-repent, sin-repent, unto oblivion ?

No, because when the Christian repents, and then repents again, and again, he isn't being re-justified each time as the Jew was under the old covenant system of priest and sacrifice. The Christian isn't re-sacrificing Jesus over and over and over again. He's making repeated appeals to the one time sacrifice of Jesus there on the altar in heaven making continuous intercession on the believer's behalf.

When you sin you don't need to take a whole bath, you just need to wash your feet (John 13:10).

 

[Hopeful]

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

Paul wrote this to water baptized Christians.

Like Jethro Bodine said, we have the power of the Holy Spirit to resist the sinful impulses that emanate from our flesh, that desire to gratify its lustful cravings.
JLB

Do you really think your skin and bones can make you commit sin against the mind/brains will?
Who is in charge?
For Christians, the "flesh" has been crucified, destroyed, so has absolutely no power. (Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24)
If one doesn't let the memories of past lusts into their minds, the lusts won't be acted on.
"Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

 

[Hopeful]

No. I told you it's because the flesh is contrary to the Spirit so that you do not do what you want:

But if the flesh no longer has any bearing on your life, where is the problem?

17For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want. Galatians 5:17
Your church does not consider this part of scripture. That's why it erroneously believes what it does about sinless perfection. You have un-rightly divided scripture and created a false doctrine of sinless perfection.

We do "consider it", and realize that, as men who walk in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh", what we "would/want" is of the Spirit.
"Walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfil the lusts of the flesh." (Gal 5:16)
You are looking at it from the perspective of the man still lost in the flesh.

 

[Hopeful]

You were not actually killed with Christ. You are quite alive and well. I know because you are participating in this thread.

Were that mistaken idea true, I would not be free from sin.
My drunken, drug addled self would still be calling the shots.
Thanks be to God for my death and burial with Jesus Christ, and for my rebirth from God's perfect seed !

The authority of the flesh was crucified on the cross. Not your actual, literal flesh. It's still alive and chaffing against the Spirit "so that you do not do what you want" sometimes (Galatians 5:17).

Got a scripture for that accommodation for sin?

The new creation is the inner man. The new mindset of the Spirit that replaced the old mindset of the flesh. The new creation is NOT your flesh body. It's the same body it was before believing in Christ. But now stripped of it's authority to rule over you, and so the flesh is dead to you in that sense. It is not literally dead.

It seems you missed part of 2 Cor 5:17.
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:
old things are passed away;
behold, all things are become new."
Why do you maintain some of the old?
Why are some parts of you not made new?
Don't bother answering, as I know the answer.

 

[Hopeful]

Actually, the Biblical word for it is pleonazō...

πλεονάζω pleonázō, pleh-on-ad'-zo; from G4119; to do, make or be more, i.e. increase (transitively or intransitively); by extension, to superabound:—abound, abundant, make to increase, have over.*

8For if these things be in you, and abound (pleonazō-increase), they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:8

The Christian who has been set apart to holiness at rebirth abounds more and more in the traits of the Spirit, the actual practice of the holiness he has been set apart to. It's a growth process, not a perfectly complete and instantaneous transformation as your erroneous, un-rightly divided doctrine teaches. I've literally shown you the scripture that says this. It's one of several scriptures that whoever created your doctrine did not take into consideration.

*

G4121 - pleonazō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G4121 - πλεονάζω pleonázō, pleh-on-ad'-zo; from ; to do, make or be more, i.e. increase (transitively or intransitively); by extension, to superabound:—abound, abundant, make to increase, have over.

www.blueletterbible.org

One can't be holier without first being holy.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, I think they will.
We're all free to think what we want about that.
I say the person who does not walk after the Spirit may have been never born again, or forfeited the Spirit by returning to unbelief.

Finally, something we agree on.

I do not subscribe to Reformed Theology

So what?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

One can't be holier without first being holy.

You do not understand the difference between being set apart for a Holy purpose and then actually being used in that holy purpose. We spend a lifetime learning to walk in the Holy purpose for which we were set apart by God to walk in. 2 Timothy 2:21

 

[Hopeful]

This is not in dispute, as it is clearly spelled out for us in scripture. What you can't prove is God gave Cornelius and his family the Spirit before water baptism to make that point. I say the point would have just as clearly been made when Peter saw them receive the Spirit at their water baptism. So there's no reason to think the giving of the Spirit prior to water baptism was done intentionally by God this one time and one time only to show Peter he accepted the gentiles.

Where else did it ever get written about?

That being true, I think the Spirit being given to Cornelius before and apart from water baptism was to show Peter that God did not intend for the giving of the Spirit to be a legalistic procedure.

As long as the repentance from sin is true, God will dwell in the temple when cleansed.
I'ld rather be legal than lost.

As I say, literally countless Christians show us that God does not legalistically wait until your scheduled water baptism weeks or months after you believe to give you the Holy Spirit. I received the Spirit immediately upon accepting Christ. But what I did receive at my water baptism was power to witness.

Show the scripture, please.
Do you also have the gift of interpretation for your gift of tongues?

Very few people have instant access to water to get baptized when they believe.

God can put water where it is needed, as He did for Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch.
Don't make excuses that are not needed.

God was not making a hard and fast, legalistic rule for baptism being the one and only way to get the Holy Spirit when he said, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

I will obey Peter's exhortation before I believe some man's "take" on it.
You should too.

Besides the Biblical example of Cornelius and his family, simple observation and experience down through the centuries shows us that getting water baptized is not a legalistic formula for receiving the Holy Spirit. The Bible itself proves that. Countless experiences confirm it.

I agree, as repentance from sin is the common denominator between Peter's Acts 2:38 doctrine and Cornelius' Acts 10 experience.
But Cornelius was water baptized very soon after receiving the Spirit.
Any one with the Spirit of God would want to be baptized immediately.
God will make it happen.
Thanks be to God !

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So what?

You don't seem to be able to decide if you believe Reformed doctrine or not. In one post you have true believers not being able to fall away, but in another post you have true believers being able to fall away.

 

[Hopeful]

Paul is not saying you'll always escape the temptation of sin. He said God makes a way to escape it. Christians don't always take that escape, for "the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want. " Galatians 5:17.

You have the wrong idea about what "Christians" will do.

As they mature, the Christian takes the way of escape from temptation God has provided more quickly and easily as they grow up into the knowledge of God and the salvation they have received. You don't start out mature. No child does. Your doctrine ignores the scriptures that talk about this. I'm showing you these scriptures and you're choosing to ignore them.

As God promises that no man will be tempted more than they can handle, we can always escape.
Don't accommodate sin.
I ignore accommodations for sin, knowing the father of lies has already been beaten.

 

[Hopeful]

You don't seem to be able to decide if you believe Reformed doctrine or not. In one post you have true believers not being able to fall away, but in another post you have true believers being able to fall away.

I'ld like you to show where I said true believers will fall away.
Only posers "fall away".

 

[Hopeful]

No, because when the Christian repents, and then repents again, and again, he isn't being re-justified each time as the Jew was under the old covenant system of priest and sacrifice. The Christian isn't re-sacrificing Jesus over and over and over again. He's making repeated appeals to the one time sacrifice of Jesus there on the altar in heaven making continuous intercession on the believer's behalf.

When you sin you don't need to take a whole bath, you just need to wash your feet (John 13:10).

It is written..."For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Heb 6:4-6)
Know why they can't "repent again"?
Because they didn't repent the first time.

 

[JLB]

Do you really think your skin and bones can make you commit sin against the mind/brains will?

Absolutely Yes.

For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:17

you = mind, brain, soul, inner man


You have chosen to exalt the teachings of your denomination over the truth of the scriptures.




JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is written..."For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Heb 6:4-6)
Know why they can't "repent again"?
Because they didn't repent the first time.

That's a Reformist view.