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Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

Which comes first union with Christ or faith alone!

Thanks
Perhaps this is how you intended your post to appear. If so, this is my answer:

Union with Christ (the receiving of the Holy Spirit) occurs when you have faith in the blood of Christ to forgive your sin, before and apart from the aid or merit of works or rituals. Justification is entirely on the basis of having faith in the promised Son, apart from works (Hebrews 4:6, Galatians 3:5-6), just as it was for Abraham our example (Romans 4:23-24, Galatians 3:6).

Of course, to get around this plain teaching in scripture, Catholic teaching equates 'faith' and 'works/rituals' as if they are by definition the exact same thing, which they are not. That's how it deceives it's people into adopting the very works gospel that Paul said will cause a person to be anathema (cursed). You have plainly told me that all the things Christ commands must be done because they are meritorious towards salvation. And that you won't be saved until you have faithfully obeyed all those commands, repeatedly, until the day you die.

The conclusion being, there is no such thing as a saved Catholic. They do not believe you are saved until you die and Christ returns, at which time your works and rituals are counted as being meritorious towards that salvation. If they are that. You find out then if they are.
 
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I purposely waited until he responded, first.
What he means is the obedience of suffering is required in order to merit salvation (among all the other things we must obey in order to merit salvation).
Ask him.
I'm confident that I accurately understand that this is what he's been saying.
I never heard of any such teaching in the CC.
I'm going to answer him after dinner - had company.
I'll tag you in.
 
Perhaps this is how you intended your post to appear. If so, this is my answer:

Union with Christ (the receiving of the Holy Spirit) occurs when you have faith in the blood of Christ to forgive your sin, before and apart from the aid or merit of works or rituals. Justification is entirely on the basis of having faith in the promised Son, apart from works (Hebrews 4:6, Galatians 3:5-6), just as it was for Abraham our example (Romans 4:23-24, Galatians 3:6).

Of course, to get around this plain teaching in scripture, Catholic teaching equates 'faith' and 'works/rituals' as if they are by definition the exact same thing, which they are not. That's how it deceives it's people into adopting the very works gospel that Paul said will cause a person to be anathema (cursed). You have plainly told me that all the things Christ commands must be done because they are meritorious towards salvation. And that you won't be saved until you have faithfully obeyed all those commands, repeatedly, until the day you die.

The conclusion being, there is no such thing as a saved Catholic. They do not believe you are saved until you die and Christ returns, at which time your works and rituals are counted as being meritorious towards that salvation. If they are that. You find out then if they are.
:shock

My goodness Jethro!
Where do you learn this stuff?

Later.
 
Perhaps this is how you intended your post to appear. If so, this is my answer:

This was for donadams .
I don't really know what that means: What comes first union with Christ or faith only.
So I'll leave that go.

Union with Christ (the receiving of the Holy Spirit) occurs when you have faith in the blood of Christ to forgive your sin, before and apart from the aid or merit of works or rituals. Justification is entirely on the basis of having faith in the promised Son, apart from works (Hebrews 4:6, Galatians 3:5-6), just as it was for Abraham our example (Romans 4:23-24, Galatians 3:6).

Oh. OK. Remember, I'm giving you the Catholic teachings here.
What you've written above is agreed to by the CC.
Justification happens when a person decides to believe God.
Works cannot save a person that does not believe in God.
Faith without works is dead.
Works without faith are dead.

Of course, to get around this plain teaching in scripture, Catholic teaching equates 'faith' and 'works/rituals' as if they are by definition the exact same thing, which they are not. That's how it deceives it's people into adopting the very works gospel that Paul said will cause a person to be anathema (cursed).

Trust me Jethro, most catholics don't adopt any such thing as works since they really don't know what it even means.
There's a difference in the Catholic teaching re sanctification...it sort of rolls right in with Justification instead in protestantism we view it as completely different. I understand the Protestant version better, although, in the end, it turns out to be the same.

Here:
In Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and most Protestant theology, anyone who has been justified will produce good works as a product of faith, as a result of God's grace in sanctification. Notable exceptions to the idea that sanctification and good works always accompany justification are found in Free Grace Theology and many within the Independent Baptist movement.[7]
source: Wikepedia
You have plainly told me that all the things Christ commands must be done because they are meritorious towards salvation. And that you won't be saved until you have faithfully obeyed all those commands, repeatedly, until the day you die.

I don't know anyone that does everything Christ commanded....this would be called sin.
God forgives sin.

As to being meritorious toward salvation: If this were so, I don't know who would be saved.
Following is the teaching of the CC on merit. I'd say that to understand we protestants would say that
God gives initial grace for salvation and then God gives us grace AS WE USE IT. The more we use, the more we will need, the more we will get.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
Paragraphs 2006 to 2011

2006 The term "merit" refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."62

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.


The conclusion being, there is no such thing as a saved Catholic. They do not believe you are saved until you die and Christ returns, at which time your works and rituals are counted as being meritorious towards that salvation. If they are that. You find out then if they are.
We can know we are saved NOW. This is also true of the CC teaching.
But we cannot know if we'll be saved at death and for the reason you agree to:
faith can be lost...salvation can be lost.

Also, the CC believes we go to be with God at death.
 
Enduring suffering or persecution or painful experiences or daily trials with the virtue of patience in union with Christ
Thanks
This is also for Jethro Bodine

Hi Don,
If you want to explain it as the above, it sounds right.
I wouldn't go beyond that because it becomes complicated.

At communion time at Mass there's a little water added to the wine.
It represents the community and it adds their "sacrifices" to the sacrifice of Jesus.
Not that any additional is needed, but Paul did say that he adds his sacrifices to our Lord's.

Hebrews 13:6
Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.
Romans 12:1
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
Ephesians 5:2
And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
Philippians 4:18
I have received full payment, and more. I am well supplied, having received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent, a fragrant offering, a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God.

If you really want to know more about sacrifice,
see here:
GO TO S FOR SACRIFICE

There's more than you'll ever want to know...
 
“Faith alone” apart from union with Christ avails nothing, in order for our actions (including prayer, fasting, alms, virtues etc.) to have merit they must be in union with Christ and filled with sanctifying grace, it is grace that gives our actions merit, Jn 1:16-17 Jn 15:1-5 apart from me you can do nothing, must be in union with Christ and grace, but we cannot accomplish this only God can do it thru His church by baptismal regeneration!
Jn 3:5 2 pet 1:11

The Christian sacrament* of baptismal regeneration is required for the new covenant and salvation!

*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Initiation!!!


Faith & Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!

“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17

A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)

No baptism no grace!

A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!



Christ instituted the holy church for the salvation of all men, (repent and believe the gospel, with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!


Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Hope this helps
 
“Faith alone” apart from union with Christ avails nothing, in order for our actions (including prayer, fasting, alms, virtues etc.) to have merit they must be in union with Christ and filled with sanctifying grace, it is grace that gives our actions merit, Jn 1:16-17 Jn 15:1-5 apart from me you can do nothing, must be in union with Christ and grace, but we cannot accomplish this only God can do it thru His church by baptismal regeneration!
Jn 3:5 2 pet 1:11

The Christian sacrament* of baptismal regeneration is required for the new covenant and salvation!

*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Initiation!!!


Faith & Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!

“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17

A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)

No baptism no grace!

A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!



Christ instituted the holy church for the salvation of all men, (repent and believe the gospel, with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!


Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Hope this helps
What do you think FAITH ALONE means?
It's 12:30 am here.
I'll leave this up to Jethro Bodine who is very interested in this.

I think you have the right idea but the way you present it does cause some confusion to a Protestant.
I skimmed through and you make some excellent point.
Hope I could remember to post tomorrow.
Good night and God bless you.
 
The flesh, the physical body of born again, water baptized Christians contains sin. Paul is writing to such and admonishes these Christians to walk in the Spirit, SO THAT they (the ones he is admonishing to walk in the Spirit) do not fulfill the sinful cravings of their flesh.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:16-17
Once again it is blatantly evident that you are ignoring the plain undeniable words of truth, and exalting your predetermined mindset (stronghold) that was framed by your denominational teaching against the knowledge of God.
JLB
I cannot agree that something born of God has sin in it. (2 Cor 5:17, 1 John 3:9)
Grape seeds cannot bring forth figs, and neither can God's seed bring forth liars, thieves, or adulterers.
 
The scripture records that the Ethiopian was not baptized with the Holy Spirit.
True.
The scripture records that Phillip did indeed baptize Samaria as they received his message of salvation, but they didn’t receive the Holy Spirit under the ministry of Phillip.
Philip is spelled with one "L".
The scripture records that Peter and John had to come down from Jerusalem to lay hands on them because they had only been baptized in the name of Jesus (water baptism).
True again.
You understand the gist of my posts that the gift of the Holy Ghost is not dependent on water baptism being done "first".
It is, however, dependent on repentance from sin.
The incident at Samaria was to show that the apostles could "pass on" the gift of the Holy Ghost with the laying on of hands.
Paul did the same for the twelve at Ephesus.

Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17
The point:
God chose to have Peter and John come down to lay hands on them in order for them to receive the Holy Spirit.
They did not receive the Holy Spirit at water baptism.
At the house of Cornelius, the Lord chose to baptize them with the Holy Spirit apart from the laying on of hands.
Then afterward they were baptized in water.
True.
The common denominator in both is, the baptism with the Holy Spirit did not occur at water baptism.
How the Lord chooses to baptize people with the Spirit is up to Him.
True again.
What is also "common" in both instances is that repentance from sin and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins is part and parcel of deliverance.
Still, though, Cornelius is the only biblical instance of someone receiving the gift of the holy Ghost before water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
 
You're making a baseless claim.

I believed and received the Spirit after 10:00 at night in January in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. It was probably below 0°F that night.
What signs accompanied the reception of your gift?
It was just me and my wife in our living room. When we got into a church we had to wait until March when the YMCA let us use their pool to baptize us and some other new converts.
Couldn't you find a Christian church?
 
You can say what you want about it.
My 'take' of why God did it the way he did it for Cornelius is more logical.

I'm thankful that we have his experience recorded in scripture because if it was not then EVERY church would be making water baptism a legalistic work through which one gets saved and receives the Spirit. It's obvious to me that's why God put it in scripture. I did not have to wait until I was water baptized to receive the Spirit. I received it when I believed, not when I was baptized. So your claim falls on deaf ears for me. I know from my own experience, and many others, that your claim is false.
If obedience to Jesus is too legal for you, isn't your reaction "illegal"?
 
It's not so much a matter of blame as much as it as a matter of where sin comes. Obviously, sin does not come from the new nature. It comes from the flesh. But even with that being true, everybody is still responsible for their sin.
You sound like one of the folks Jesus said should "cut off their hand" or "pluck out your eye".
Thankfully, you can now do away with the flesh by cutting off your entire previous life at immersion into the death and burial of Jesus. (Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24)
Get reborn of God's seed, and the alleged source of your sins will be gone.
 
You seem oblivious to the fact that the person potentially serving the flesh in Galatians 5:17 HAS THE SPIRIT OF GOD IN THEM.
Gal 5:16 negates that thought.
"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."
If we are walking in the Spirit we will not act on a "fleshly" oriented mind.
Because we don't have one anymore !
 
Yes, if you give it more power.

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its desires. Romans 6:1
That's why Paul says to reckon the body of sin dead, so it won't reign over you.
11So you too must count yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Romans 6:11
So don't give it power? !
Keep sin out, and it can't "reign" !
 
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