Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Jethro Bodine]

NO.
If by rituals you mean the commandments, then they believe that grace is received ALSO by participating in these rituals.
But that's not the only way.

No, not by the commandments. I mean by ceremonial procedures.

If grace is received through ceremonial rituals then there was no reason for God to lay aside circumcision and Sabbath keeping.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You don't seem to realize that this, and other verses in Rom 7, are Paul's laments of his life prior to his conversion, while he still walked in the flesh instead of in the Spirit.
Rom 7:5..."For when we were in the flesh...". Past tense, were.
Rom 7:18..."For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,)...". Still past tense, "in my flesh".

A Christian is "in the flesh" when he is not walking in the Spirit.
I showed you that Galatians 5:17 proves that the person with the Spirit (a born again person) has the flesh, too, and that's why, when it happens, the Spirit inhabited person does not do what they want. It's because of the flesh. One has to lie to themselves to insist the verse does not say that.

 

[Hopeful]

I wouldn't expect you to learn much as a Catholic about becoming righteous the way the scriptures teach that.

Scripture? Or catholic dogma?

Being right with God for the vast majority of them means the keeping of various rituals.

You would have to ask them about it.

But anyway, 'becoming righteous' is called 'Justification' in Paul's writings (James is referring to another definition of 'justified' in his letter).
It's the receiving of God's righteousness. Not your righteousness, because you don't have any of your own.
People who believe in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin are 'justified' (become righteous) in God's sight on the basis of their faith in the blood, apart from the value or merit of righteous work. Romans 4:6.

Sure am glad I was justified by the blood of Christ at my voluntary water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
That is where His atoning, sanctifying, justifying blood was applied to my body.

 

[Hopeful]

Which brings us back to my point.
We are one spirit with Him now.
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17
Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:50
Our physical bodies are not seated with Christ at the right hand of God in heaven.
JLB

Personally, I don't worry about the vessel much anymore.
I wash and feed it and keep it in as good a condition as I can, but it is not "me".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you choose not to walk in the Spirit, you are not reborn of Gods seed which doesn't involve a choice any more than a fig seed bringing forth figs.

I do not believe you for a nanosecond that you have been sinlessly perfect since the day you believed. I would consider the idea that you have been trained by failure and adversity to be perfect at a later mature stage in your relationship with God, but not since the moment you believed. That's completely contrary to the teachings of the NT (the ones your doctrine ignores) that speak of growth and progress towards perfection, being imperfect, albeit all the less, along the way.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Scripture? Or catholic dogma?

Catholics here are very clear that justification is through faith and works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sure am glad I was justified by the blood of Christ at my voluntary water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
That is where His atoning, sanctifying, justifying blood was applied to my body.

And that's certainly Biblical. No one's going to take that away from you.

I received the Spirit the moment I believed and received the word of faith.
Got water baptized 2 months later.
That, too, is certainly Biblical and no one can take it away from me.

 

[Hopeful]

Aging, degeneration and dying BECAUSE of sin.

Because of Adam.

Death is the result of sin.

Thankfully, we can suffer the death for our sins at our "immersion" into Christ and into His death and burial when we are baptized into Him and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-7, 23)
From that burial, we can also be "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life".

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.
Romans 5:12
Adam and Eve begin to die because of sin; the law of sin and death.
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. Genesis 2:17
When we are resurrected from the dead, we will have eternal bodies that will not die anymore, just like Jesus; because they are sinless.
But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36

I sure hope I will continue on "in Christ", so I will be "counted worthy".
He has done His part, now the rest is up to me.

 

[Hopeful]

I fully understand that is what you have been programmed to “believe” but as we see from the truth, your “perspective” is the opposite of the truth that is plainly revealed in the scriptures.

You had better recheck the belief you were programmed with.
Jesus said the truth would make us free, in John 8:32.
In John 8:34 He told us what we can be free of..."For whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
Free from committing sin in servitude to sin

Again, please answer the question —
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:7-8
Who does this scripture say, is cleansed from sin?

The ones needing cleansing are those walking in sin/darkness.
What else is the cleansing from?

1. Those who walk in the light?

Those walking in God/the light, have already been cleansed by the blood of Christ, as there is no sin/darkness in God/light.

1. Those who walk in darkness?

Those walking in darkness/sin need to confess their sin and be cleansed.
Then they will both be able to say they have fellowship with God and that they no longer have any sin.
Thanks be to God !

 

[Hopeful]

A Christian is "in the flesh" when he is not walking in the Spirit.
I showed you that Galatians 5:17 proves that the person with the Spirit (a born again person) has the flesh, too, and that's why, when it happens, the Spirit inhabited person does not do what they want. It's because of the flesh. One has to lie to themselves to insist the verse does not say that.

Christians are always in the Spirit, as their "flesh" has been destroyed, (Rom 6:6), circumcised, (Col 2:11), and crucified with the affects and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
We are new creatures...thanks be to God !

 

[Hopeful]

Catholics here are very clear that justification is through faith and works.

Not just the catholics.
Everyone who traipses back and forth from walking in the Spirit to walking in the flesh is also just hoping they are in the Spirit on the day of judgement.

 

[Hopeful]

And that's certainly Biblical. No one's going to take that away from you.

I received the Spirit the moment I believed and received the word of faith.
Got water baptized 2 months later.
That, too, is certainly Biblical and no one can take it away from me.

I am surprised they made you wait 2 months to have your past sins remitted.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, not by the commandments. I mean by ceremonial procedures.

If grace is received through ceremonial rituals then there was no reason for God to lay aside circumcision and Sabbath keeping.

I'm not sure I know the difference between a ritual and a ceremonial procedure.

God is always shedding His grace on us...

Oh. I know what you mean.

But what do ceremonial procedures have to do with Christianity?
They were abolished with Christ's death.

Weren't we discussing the receiving of grace through catholic sacraments??

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm not sure I know the difference between a ritual and a ceremonial procedure.

God is always shedding His grace on us...

Oh. I know what you mean.

But what do ceremonial procedures have to do with Christianity?
They were abolished with Christ's death.

Weren't we discussing the receiving of grace through catholic sacraments??

That's another point I wanted to make. We're talking about the grace of God in justification. Paul says a person is reckoned righteous the same way Abraham was, by faith in the promised son apart from works. The Catholic church says righteousness is reckoned to a person by faith and works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am surprised they made you wait 2 months to have your past sins remitted.

Lol, it don't work that way.

Justification occurs by faith apart from works. Just as it did for Abraham.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not just the catholics.
Everyone who traipses back and forth from walking in the Spirit to walking in the flesh is also just hoping they are in the Spirit on the day of judgement.

No, that's not how it works, lol.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Christians are always in the Spirit, as their "flesh" has been destroyed, (Rom 6:6), circumcised, (Col 2:11), and crucified with the affects and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
We are new creatures...thanks be to God !

Galatians 5:17

 

[JLB]

The ones needing cleansing are those walking in sin/darkness.
What else is the cleansing from?

But that is not what the scripture teaches.

That is what your “doctrine” teaches, not scripture.


But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7


The same people that walk in the light, are the same people that His blood cleanses from all sin.


In fact, the requirement for having our sin cleansed is walking in the light.

This is where your “sinless perfection“ doctrine is destroyed.

Then to top it off, the next verse says —

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8



JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Lol, it don't work that way.

Justification occurs by faith apart from works. Just as it did for Abraham.

Peter and I would have a different opinion. (Acts 2:38)
Those pushing the misguided "anti-works" doctrine have robbed many of the ability to obey Jesus. (Matt 28:19)
The "works that won't save are of the Law, ie. circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping, feast keeping, tithing, etc.
Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins is not of the Mosaic Law.
Neither is repentance from sin.
That being said, why did you get baptized at all?

 

[Hopeful]

No, that's not how it works, lol.

I know, as those wandering back and forth continually manifest they are still in the flesh.