Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[JLB]

There is no work at all that you can do to become righteous (justified) before God. James is not saying Abraham was made righteous by works of faith, or any other works. He's saying Abraham was shown to be righteous by his works. That is another definition of 'justified'.

Not “work” in the sense you are describing, but the action of obedience.

Work = the effort obedience requires.

• No one is declared to be righteous by their disobedience!
• Only the obedient are right with God; righteous

The phrase “by faith” simply means God spoke to someone and they did what He said; they obeyed Him

With Abraham the corresponding act of obedience was to actually put for the effort get out of his fathers house and go to the land the Lord would show him.

• Here are the three scriptures that deal with the same scenario of Abraham responding to the Lord.

• Scripture Reference #1 —

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8

This phrase in quotes shows us Paul is quoting from a scripture in the Old Testament — “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”

This refers to Genesis 12.

• Scripture Reference #2 —

Now the LORD had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
So Abram departed as the LORD had spoken to him
Genesis 12:1-4


The word of faith spoken by the Lord to Abram —

• Get out of your country, from your family and from your father’s house,
  

To a land that I will show you.

The action of obedience to this word by which Abram received faith.

So Abram departed as the LORD had spoken to him


To paraphrase what the Lord spoke to Abram in reference to the Gospel —

Turn to Me in submission to Me as your Lord (turn away from your old life) and follow Me where I led you.


This is the foundational biblical meaning of the word Repent.

This is how Abraham was justified.
This is the pattern by which God would also justify the Gentiles by faith.

• Scripture Reference #3

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8


The principle of faith shown in this incident with Abraham:

Faith came to Abraham when he heard God speak to him to…

Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;


Abraham was justified when he obeyed the Lord and … departed as the LORD had spoken to him


If Abraham disobeyed the Lord to
Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.

Then he would not have become a great nation, but would have remain in unbelief (disobedience).





JLB

 

[JLB]

OK.
Let's say that the church has accepted Luther's version of justification.
The CC cannot change dogma --- but it can change doctrine/teaching.
Luther was 500 years ago, the Council of Trent was also 500 years ago.
Things have changed since then.
Until 1919 (I think, but it's close) divorced persons were not allowed to Mass!
Maybe the following will clarify:

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (JDDJ)

Five Christian World Communions working together to bring the gospel to contemporary society The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (JDDJ) was a historic agreement signed by Lutherans and Catholics in 1999, effectively resolving one of the key theological conflicts of the...

www.lutheranworld.org

20th Anniversary Edition

www.christianunity.va

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification​

20th Anniversary Edition​

The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine Justification is a historic agreement, signed by Lutherans and Catholics on 31 October 1999 in Augsburg Germany, resolving divisions on the “basic truths” of salvation as a free gift from God. Commonly known as the JDDJ, it was later affirmed by the World Methodist Council (2006), the Anglican Consultative Council (2016) and the World Communion of Reformed Churches (2017), making it a multilateral agreement between five equal partners. In 2019, all five partners jointly re-affirmed their commitment to the JDDJ at a consultation at the Notre Dame University (USA).

Lutherans
Catholics
World Methodist Council
Anglican Consultative Council
World Communion of Reformed Churches

So where exactly is their definition of justification that these people have agreed on?

I only see the above statement.




JLB

 

[JLB]

OK.
Let's say that the church has accepted Luther's version of justification.
The CC cannot change dogma --- but it can change doctrine/teaching.
Luther was 500 years ago, the Council of Trent was also 500 years ago.
Things have changed since then.
Until 1919 (I think, but it's close) divorced persons were not allowed to Mass!
Maybe the following will clarify:

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (JDDJ)

Five Christian World Communions working together to bring the gospel to contemporary society The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (JDDJ) was a historic agreement signed by Lutherans and Catholics in 1999, effectively resolving one of the key theological conflicts of the...

www.lutheranworld.org

20th Anniversary Edition

www.christianunity.va

Ok, so here is the crux of their common understanding.



Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification


The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation,
death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ
himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit
in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace
alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit
on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who
renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.

All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith.

Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life

 

[JLB]

Ok, so here is the crux of their common understanding.



Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification


The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation,
death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ
himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit
in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace
alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit
on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who
renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.

All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith.

Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life

At best this is a very vague statement that contains language that could mean one thing to one person and another thing to another.

There is no scripture, just some basic vague statements.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Ok, so here is the crux of their common understanding.



Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification


The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation,
death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ
himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit
in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace
alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit
on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who
renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.

All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith.

Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life

The only way a person is justified, (declared to be right with God and thereby reconciled to Him) is by obeying the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which means confessing Jesus as Lord.


A person can believe Jesus Christ is Lord until the cows come home, but if they don’t confess Him as Lord they will not be saved.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The way we obey the command of the Gospel “repent” is to confess Jesus as Lord.


“Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 10:32-33


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16






JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not “work” in the sense you are describing, but the action of obedience.

Work = the effort obedience requires.

• No one is declared to be righteous by their disobedience!
• Only the obedient are right with God; righteous

The phrase “by faith” simply means God spoke to someone and they did what He said; they obeyed Him

With Abraham the corresponding act of obedience was to actually put for the effort get out of his fathers house and go to the land the Lord would show him.

• Here are the three scriptures that deal with the same scenario of Abraham responding to the Lord.

• Scripture Reference #1 —

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8

This phrase in quotes shows us Paul is quoting from a scripture in the Old Testament — “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”

This refers to Genesis 12.

• Scripture Reference #2 —

Now the LORD had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
So Abram departed as the LORD had spoken to him
Genesis 12:1-4


The word of faith spoken by the Lord to Abram —

• Get out of your country, from your family and from your father’s house,

To a land that I will show you.

The action of obedience to this word by which Abram received faith.

So Abram departed as the LORD had spoken to him


To paraphrase what the Lord spoke to Abram in reference to the Gospel —

Turn to Me in submission to Me as your Lord (turn away from your old life) and follow Me where I led you.


This is the foundational biblical meaning of the word Repent.

This is how Abraham was justified.
This is the pattern by which God would also justify the Gentiles by faith.

• Scripture Reference #3

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8


The principle of faith shown in this incident with Abraham:

Faith came to Abraham when he heard God speak to him to…

Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;


Abraham was justified when he obeyed the Lord and … departed as the LORD had spoken to him


If Abraham disobeyed the Lord to
Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.

Then he would not have become a great nation, but would have remain in unbelief (disobedience).





JLB

How did Abraham become righteous by obeying? For that is what it means, in the context of Abraham in Romans, to be justified - to receive the righteousness that is from God.

 

[GodsGrace]

At best this is a very vague statement that contains language that could mean one thing to one person and another thing to another.

There is no scripture, just some basic vague statements.




JLB

I don't know what's vague about it?.
You'll have to explain the nuance you see between the two ideas.

I think it's unfortunate how we don't care to understand each other.

And there is aot of scripture in the official document. What difference would it make?

The statement is correct.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why have some Catholics not known this?

Most Catholics don't know their faith.
They're not accustomed to bible study.

What's the difference between dogma and doctrine/teaching?

Dogma is "hard" teaching. It must be believed by every Catholic. It can never be changed. The Pope even takes an oath to this effect.

Doctrine means teaching. Teachings can change.

 

[JLB]

How did Abraham become righteous by obeying? For that is what it means, in the context of Abraham in Romans, to be justified - to receive the righteousness that is from God.

He was justified (declared to be right with God; righteous) by faith;
by the obedience of faith.


Faith comes to us when we hear God.

We are justified when we obey what we hear from God.

In this case Abraham was commanded to …

Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.

He obeyed God and departed as God commanded.

So Abram departed as the LORD had spoken to him



And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8

This phrase in quotes shows us Paul is quoting from a scripture in the Old Testament — “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”

This refers to Genesis 12.

• Scripture Reference #2 —

Now the LORD had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
So Abram departed as the LORD had spoken to him
Genesis 12:1-4



JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Wow! You aren't even tempted by sin. You are in serious delusion.

The temptations are their, but I am not interested in satisfying them.
My fleshly oriented mind was destroyed at my water baptism into Christ's death.
I have a Spiritually oriented mind now, thanks be to God.

 

[JLB]

I don't know what's vague about it?.
You'll have to explain the nuance you see between the two ideas.

I think it's unfortunate how we don't care to understand each other.

And there is aot of scripture in the official document. What difference would it make?

The statement is correct.

This paragraph --


Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life.

1. We have a biblical definition of faith which is found in Hebrews 11:1.


Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament.

Sacrament?

Faith comes to a person by hearing the word from God.

The person who has heard the word of God and now has faith must do what God says to do in order to be justified.

In both cases of faith and justification, Abraham obeyed the word from God by which he received faith and was justified.

There is no sacrament involved.

Hearing and obeying.

Thats it.


JLB

 

[Hopeful]

It does work both ways. I never said otherwise.

"It" does work both ways, as those walking in the Spirit cannot do the the things of the flesh and those walking in the flesh cannot do the things of the Spirit.
Just as Gal 5:16 stated.

 

[Hopeful]

I prefer the Bible. I showed you the plain words of scripture that make it impossible for your sinless doctrine to be true and you knowingly rejected them. You are sinning. You have to give an account to God for your willing refusal to acknowledge the truth and instead believe a lie. Some things are open for honest debate. This is not one of them.

The "truth" you present demands disobedience to God.
I am not interested in that.
It is not of God.

 

[Hopeful]

Oh.
Well, I don't speak in tongues,
so I guess my repentance from sin was not real.
Thank goodness I have you to judge me!!

Are you a non-sinner?

 

[Hopeful]

You forgot to look up the word SERVANT...

A PERSON WHO PERFORMS DUTIES FOR ANOTHER...

I don't think any Christian on this forum performs DUTIES for the evil one.

I'll take the word of Jesus on the matter.
He said if you commit sin you are the servant of sin. (John 8:34)

 

[Hopeful]

I see that Hopeful gave you a like.
So one of us, either him or me, don't understand what you stated above.

You stated that Christians are not slaves to sinful behavior.

So, a simple question:
Do we Christians still sin at times?

His post was true,
The answer to your question depends on what you interpret is a Christian.
I call them followers of God.
Will followers of God follow the devil?
No.

 

[Hopeful]

Oh, boy. This just keeps getting worse, lol.

My Bible says SOME get that gift.

Where?

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, of course Christians sin at times, but we are not slaves to sin.

I disagree with the first part of that.
Men are servants of whom they serve. (Rom 6:16)

In other words, sin doesn't control us as it does non-Christians. Paul wrote in Romans 7:17-20 that "But now it is no longer me doing it, but sin that lives in me. For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For I want to do the good, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but I do the very evil I do not want! Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer me doing it but sin that lives in me." That is describing the behavior of a non-Christian.

That part of Rom 7 described Paul's preconversion life while trying to satisfy God by obeying the Law.

Christians live in our earthly bodies until we die and go to be with the Lord. We still sin on occasion, but not willfully. And when we do, then we repent. But our behavior is not determined by the sinful nature that we inherited from Adam. Romans 6:11-12, "So you too consider yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its desires". Clearly, Christians can control their sinful behavior (as free people), whereas non-Christians cannot (since they are slaves to sin).

All sin is willful. (James 1:14-15)

 

[Hopeful]

No you are not perfectly sinless because you still have the same physical body you had when you were born from your mother.

Yep, just like Jesus.
And like Him, my hands and feet have to obey my mind.
The vessel won't be committing any sins my mind doesn't initiate.

You keep ignoring all the many scriptures that everyone keeps giving you that prove your doctrine is not biblically inspired.

I ignore incorrect interpretations of scriptures.

Denying the truth of the scriptures is never going to make your "theology" sound.

Would that be the "truth" Jesus said could free us from sin? (John 8:32-34)

You are just hiding in the darkness of the lie you believed which keeps you from confessing your sins and being forgiven, believing that you have been perfectly sinless ever since you were water baptized.

I have been sinless since I repented of sin.

Your spirit was born again, not your body.
Your flesh is not born again of the Spirit.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

I can't adhere to a "partial rebirth" doctrine.
I am a completely new creature. (2 Cr 5:17)..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Paul warns water baptized Christians, to not let the sin in their flesh, rule over them, and make them slaves to it.

Why won't you?
Besides the fact you keep misreading the verse...

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
Romans 6:12

Don't let sin in, and it can't reign.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'll take the word of Jesus on the matter.
He said if you commit sin you are the servant of sin. (John 8:34)

He must have been mistaken in
John 20:23