Does man have free will to choose salvation?

[electedbyHim]

“Conceived in sin”

Looking again at Psalm 51:5, David said, “In sin did my mother conceive me” (ESV). This doesn’t mean that he was conceived illegitimately. Instead, this verse speaks to the fact that David’s mother was a sinner. She inherited that sinful nature from her parents, and they from theirs, and so on throughout the genealogical line all the way back to Adam and Eve. Psalm 58:3 states the same truth: “Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.” The birth of a human being means that one more sinner populates the earth. Everyone is “conceived in sin.”

 

[Fish153]

I have not said that God forces anyone against their will.

God predestines or elects who He will have grace on and grant salvation.

How can sinful man choose anything of God?

Because of the fall, man has become spiritually dead, blind and deaf to the things of God and is therefore unable of himself to choose spiritual good and determine his own destiny.

Genesis 6:5 Then Yahweh saw that the evil of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can know it?

Romans 3:10-18 as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME WORTHLESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.” “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN TOMB, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,” “THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”; “WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”; “THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD, DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS, AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.” “THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

I agree. Dead men cannot make "choices" any more than Lazarus could make any choice UNTIL Jesus called him forth from the grave. We are "dead in trespasses and sins" and we are so greatly fallen and depraved that none of us can "choose" salvation. Please see Acts 16 where it says:

"And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: WHOSE HEART THE LORD OPENED, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul". (Acts 16:14)

Yes----it says "she worshipped God"---but many people "worship God" in their religious ways----but God MUST OPEN our hearts for us to believe the real truth. THEN we can "attend unto the things were are spoken of Paul". Even John 1:12 says we are "born of God"---not by OUR WILL or determination. No one can choose to be born of God----it is God who does the choosing. God must first act upon our hearts---then we are given the ability to believe the Gospel by the Holy Spirit. Election is a mystery. God does not "elect" anyone to damnation---but it does say we who believe were "chosen in him before the foundation of the world". God is infinite in understanding---we are finite beings. We will understand one day when God shows us how all of this falls into place. But for now, God has not chosen for us to completely understand it. We just need to accept it and believe it.

 

[electedbyHim]

I agree. Dead men cannot make "choices" any more than Lazarus could make any choice UNTIL Jesus called him forth from the grave. We are "dead in trespasses and sins" and we are so greatly fallen and depraved that none of us can "choose" salvation. Please see Acts 16 where it says:

"And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: WHOSE HEART THE LORD OPENED, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul". (Acts 16:14)

Yes----it says "she worshipped God"---but many people "worship God" in their religious ways----but God MUST OPEN our hearts for us to believe the real truth. THEN we can "attend unto the things were are spoken of Paul". Even John 1:12 says we are "born of God"---not by OUR WILL or determination. No one can choose to be born of God----it is God who does the choosing. God must first act upon our hearts---then we are given the ability to believe the Gospel by the Holy Spirit. Election is a mystery. God does not "elect" anyone to damnation---but it does say we who believe were "chosen in him before the foundation of the world". God is infinite in understanding---we are finite beings. We will understand one day when God shows us how all of this falls into place. But for now, God has not chosen for us to completely understand it. We just need to accept it and believe it.

Thank you.

 

[hawkman]

At conception of both parents.

Are you saying both parents have this corruption in their beings ? Yes or No or do you have another answer ?

I do not know the particulairs unless I research it in depth.

Research and study and show yourself approved .

15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[electedbyHim]

Are you saying both parents have this corruption in their beings ? Yes or No or do you have another answer ?


Research and study and show yourself approved .

15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Are you saying both parents have this corruption in their beings

All humans, male and female are born with sin, so Yes.

Research and study and show yourself approved .

15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Indeed.

Definately when I have the time.

 

[electedbyHim]

All humans, male and female are born with sin, so Yes.



Indeed.

Definately when I have the time.

To clarify.

I understand that I post a lot of studies and articles more than anyone else on this forum.

Let it not be said that I am indoctrinated by these tools that I use.

I have a plethora of study tools, including books, software and sermons. Probably more than most Pastors. I have issues when it comes to purchasing and obtaining Biblical tools. I always start with Scripture and end with Scripture.

One would think I could articulate my beliefs without the use of copying and pasting my resources, however, it is just not so for some reason.

Early on in my Christianity, I weighed out and researched both sides of a Biblical or Theological argument.

As I have stated elsewhere, the Doctrines of Grace (Calvinism) was not taught to me, I have always seen it in Scripture before I knew what it was labeled. It was more defined to me when someone gave me a copy of the Sovereighnty of God by A.W. Pink and read it.

Anyhow, I went on a tangent, apologies.

 

[hawkman]

Are you saying both parents have this corruption in their beings ?

Your answer .

All humans, male and female are born with sin, so Yes.

OK ! Now we are making progress , thank you for bearing with me .

Next I have to cut and paste your quote from post #241 because a gray quote box can't be quoted out of , sadly .

electedbyHim said in post #241 .

“Conceived in sin”
Looking again at Psalm 51:5, David said, “In sin did my mother conceive me” (ESV). This doesn’t mean that he was conceived illegitimately. Instead, this verse speaks to the fact that David’s mother was a sinner. She inherited that sinful nature from her parents, and they from theirs, and so on throughout the genealogical line all the way back to Adam and Eve. Psalm 58:3 states the same truth: “Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.” The birth of a human being means that one more sinner populates the earth. Everyone is “conceived in sin.”
End of quote post #241

According to this statement the corruption is inherited through the genes ! !

So where does that leave Jesus the Son of God ? Seed of a woman , no denying that fact .

If we have corruption through the genes of a woman so does Jesus , no way around that .

Now electedbyHim do you see why I am looking for this elusive corruption ? ?

 

[JLB]

It was said the corruption is there at conception so the question , is the corruption present in the sperm of the male parent or in the egg of the female parent or is it possibly present in both ?

The sperm of the male.

Which is why Jesus was born of a virgin.

 

[hawkman]

The sperm of the male.

Which is why Jesus was born of a virgin.

Was Mary , Jesus's mother born with out a male parent ? Mary was formed from the sperm of a male and the egg of a female .

 

[electedbyHim]

Your answer .

OK ! Now we are making progress , thank you for bearing with me .

Next I have to cut and paste your quote from post #241 because a gray quote box can't be quoted out of , sadly .

electedbyHim said in post #241 .

“Conceived in sin”
Looking again at Psalm 51:5, David said, “In sin did my mother conceive me” (ESV). This doesn’t mean that he was conceived illegitimately. Instead, this verse speaks to the fact that David’s mother was a sinner. She inherited that sinful nature from her parents, and they from theirs, and so on throughout the genealogical line all the way back to Adam and Eve. Psalm 58:3 states the same truth: “Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.” The birth of a human being means that one more sinner populates the earth. Everyone is “conceived in sin.”
End of quote post #241

According to this statement the corruption is inherited through the genes ! !

So where does that leave Jesus the Son of God ? Seed of a woman , no denying that fact .

If we have corruption through the genes of a woman so does Jesus , no way around that .

Now electedbyHim do you see why I am looking for this elusive corruption ? ?

I understand your view.

So where does that leave Jesus the Son of God ? Seed of a woman , no denying that fact .

I can always quote Deuteronomy 29:29.

For me, the issue is just as complex as the Trinity and Jesus being fully God and fully human.

I was reading about your very question the other day and will look at those resources and give an answer no later than tomorrow morning/lunch.

For the rest of the evening, it is date night with the wife.

This is awesome Christian communication.

Thank you.

 

[hawkman]

I was reading about your very question the other day and will look at those resources and give an answer no later than tomorrow morning/lunch.

Sure , sounds good .

For the rest of the evening, it is date night with the wife.

Enjoy !

This is awesome Christian communication.

Thank you.

Iron sharpens iron .

 

[Fish153]

Your answer .

OK ! Now we are making progress , thank you for bearing with me .

Next I have to cut and paste your quote from post #241 because a gray quote box can't be quoted out of , sadly .

electedbyHim said in post #241 .

“Conceived in sin”
Looking again at Psalm 51:5, David said, “In sin did my mother conceive me” (ESV). This doesn’t mean that he was conceived illegitimately. Instead, this verse speaks to the fact that David’s mother was a sinner. She inherited that sinful nature from her parents, and they from theirs, and so on throughout the genealogical line all the way back to Adam and Eve. Psalm 58:3 states the same truth: “Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.” The birth of a human being means that one more sinner populates the earth. Everyone is “conceived in sin.”
End of quote post #241

According to this statement the corruption is inherited through the genes ! !

So where does that leave Jesus the Son of God ? Seed of a woman , no denying that fact .

If we have corruption through the genes of a woman so does Jesus , no way around that .

Now electedbyHim do you see why I am looking for this elusive corruption ? ?

Hawkman--- you are greatly mistaken. The WHOLE reason that the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary was to avoid the "genes" of mankind. Joseph was not Jesus' father. The Holy Spirit placed the Son of God in Mary's womb---she was a "virgin"----the "genes" were not in play. Jesus did not inherit a "fallen" bloodline. God avoided that by placing Jesus in Mary's womb. Do you understand? There was NO EGG AND SPERM. Jesus was not part Mary and part God. He was the unique SON OF GOD---miraculously placed in the womb by God Himself. Your theology is incorrect.

 

[hawkman]

Hawkman--- you are greatly mistaken. The WHOLE reason that the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary was to avoid the "genes" of mankind. Joseph was not Jesus' father. The Holy Spirit placed the Son of God in Mary's womb---she was a "virgin"----the "genes" were not in play. Jesus did not inherit a "fallen" bloodline. God avoided that by placing Jesus in Mary's womb. Do you understand? There was NO EGG AND SPERM. Jesus was not part Mary and part God. He was the unique SON OF GOD---miraculously placed in the womb by God Himself. Your theology is incorrect.

Was Jesus seed of Abraham ? YES !

Was Jesus seed of a woman ? YES !

It starts here in Genesis 3 with the seed of a woman .

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Jesus was not placed in her womb for we are told in this verse . Conceive . Seed of a woman .

31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Here is what was told to Abraham . SEED .

15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

16And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Jesus did not inherit a "fallen" bloodline.

Just as we did not either .

 

[Fish153]

Was Jesus seed of Abraham ? YES !

Was Jesus seed of a woman ? YES !

It starts here in Genesis 3 with the seed of a woman .

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Jesus was not placed in her womb for we are told in this verse . Conceive . Seed of a woman .

31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Here is what was told to Abraham . SEED .

15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

16And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.



Just as we did not either .

You are forgetting to ask yourself----why then did God intervene with the Holy Spirit and impregnate Mary? Mary did not receive "sperm"----Joseph was not the father. Jesus comes through the seed of Abraham----but he is not of the "blood" of Adam.

"Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God". (Luke 1:34,35)

Note: the angel says that what is born is "holy" and shall be called the Son of God. All men are sinners--God avoided the bloodline of Adam by intervening through the Spirit and impregnating a virgin. That was the whole purpose of the virgin birth.

 

[hawkman]

Mary did not receive "sperm"----Joseph was not the father.

I know Joseph was not the father .

Note: the angel says that what is born is "holy" and shall be called the Son of God.

Because he is the Son of God . I understand .

All men are sinners

We are born in a fallen world with sinners all around us and we must be born again . But are we a corrupt baby from the womb , NO !

God avoided the bloodline of Adam by intervening through the Spirit and impregnating a virgin.

None the less , Mary was the daughter of a man . Jesus was seed of a woman . There is no avoiding the bloodline of Adam .

 

[jasonc]

I know Joseph was not the father .

Because he is the Son of God . I understand .

We are born in a fallen world with sinners all around us and we must be born again . But are we a corrupt baby from the womb , NO !

None the less , Mary was the daughter of a man . Jesus was seed of a woman . There is no avoiding the bloodline of Adam .

A disposition to sin means one is by nature at enimity to God

A child grows up and sins

Name a child outside of Jesus that was born sinless and died sinless

For the wages of sin is death . No one doesn't die ,Jesus only can choose to die we don't .we will die .

The curse of death wasn't upon Jesus ,he willingly placed it upon himself .we don't have that ability

 

[hawkman]

A child grows up and sins

This is the usual course , we need Jesus . The baby out of the womb has no sin , that comes for them later .

Name a child outside of Jesus that was born sinless and died sinless

It is written all have sinned . It is not written that babies are born in sin .

For the wages of sin is death .

Of course .

No one doesn't die

About that , some have escaped so far as we know , Enoch and Elijah . But yes everyone is to die or raptured out of here .

The curse of death wasn't upon Jesus ,he willingly placed it upon himself .we don't have that ability

The curses are given by God in Genesis 3 and death is one of them but a sin nature curse is never mentioned .

A disposition to sin means one is by nature at enimity to God

We all need to be born again .

 

[Tenchi]

"The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so" (Romans 8:7). This means that man is morally responsible even if he lacks moral ability – man must obey God even if he cannot obey God. We are responsible if a higher power (God in this case) to us to do something. God tells us to sin no more and we are responsible to obey even though none of us can do it.

??? It is not merely that a man cannot obey God but that he cannot obey God because God - according to Calvinism - has decreed that he cannot. He bears no responsibility for his inability and its consequences, then, as far as I can see. The fundamental reason the man is not obeying God is God, not because of anything over which the man has any real control.

You are wrongly conflated God's will. It may be God's will that Joe goes to hell and it can also be God's will that Susan related the gospel to Joe.

How, exactly, am I "wrongly conflating God's will"? Can one rightly conflate things?

What do Joe and Susan have to do with my point about the absurdity that forms under Calvinism concerning alternative perspectives? If Joe is an Arminian, it is because God has decreed that he should be. And yes, if Susan shares Reformed doctrine with Joe, on Calvinism, it is because she was ordained by God to do so. But, then, if Joe spits on Susan in disgust at her Calvinism and kicks her in the shins, he is only doing what God has decreed that he should do and Susan, then, ought not to protest his actions. And so it goes, the actions of every person - however contrary to God's stated will they are - exempt from censure, since it is ultimately God's will that is being done. That "God ordains the means as well as the ends" does nothing that I can see to remedy this bizarre and absurd circumstance arising from theologically deterministic thinking.

We don't know who he has chosen.

We know, at least, according to Calvinism, that God does not want the majority of lost people. "There are few who find the Narrow Way that leads to life," Jesus said (Matthew 7:14). And we know that, so long as a person is unsaved, they are so because God wants them to be so and cannot be saved until God decrees that they should be saved, however much the Gospel is preached to them. What need for urgency in preaching the Gospel, then? And what terrible deception is worked on a room filled with lost souls when the Calvinist preaching the Gospel to them knows both that they are all unsaved by God's decree and cannot be otherwise until God's decree changes, and that most of the lost in the room will die and go to hell because God has ordained that they should. Were the full Calvinist version of the Truth preached to the lost, God would be universally reviled for the cruel and monstrous Being that Calvinism makes of Him.

When you assert we have 'free will' you are saying God must respond to us; the superior serves the inferior.

No, I'm saying that God is so powerful that He considers it of no consequence to the achievement of His purposes that we are granted by Him the capacity for free agency. He is not so fragile, so weak, that He must order every thought, word and action of His creatures in order that His will might be done. It is not, then, that we just assert ourselves over God but that He has allowed us the liberty to choose our way even when we choose contrary to His will because He doesn't need us to be puppets in order to see that His will is accomplished. As far as I can see, this view of God's sovereignty is far superior to the one Calvinism proposes. And more biblical, too.

God ordains his method of salvation. He says "faith cometh by hearing" and they Christians are to spread the word. This is what's happening here. Simple.

This misses my point entirely. On purpose, perhaps? It seems so, to me.

Thus, the God is the cause of the human will, thus man’s will is not free; rather, it is designed by God.

But no one is disputing that Man's will originates with God. What is disputed is that, having given Man a will, God has ordained that it operate in perfect conformity to His own at all times (and so, not be a will at all, really, but mere programming). Instead, I believe the Bible, as well as simple reason, indicates that God has made Man's will with the categorical capacity to refrain or not refrain from a given moral action.

"No one seeks God", yet you submit otherwise.

??? Where did I do so, exactly?

If we were free to choose God then why is a large majorities belief system the same as their parents. Empirical hard evidence show "free will" (the ability to self-determine salvation) to be a lie.

Is any of this meant to be persuasive? It certainly doesn't do anything to establish your view or defeat mine. Who has argued that there aren't various influences at work upon a person as they make choices? I haven't. It is an enormous leap of logic, however, to go from this obvious and uncontroversial observation to saying "therefore, no one ever makes any genuinely free choice." And just asserting this as a given fact by no means certifies that it is true.

 

[jasonc]

This is the usual course , we need Jesus . The baby out of the womb has no sin , that comes for them later .

It is written all have sinned . It is not written that babies are born in sin .

Of course .

About that , some have escaped so far as we know , Enoch and Elijah . But yes everyone is to die or raptured out of here .

The curses are given by God in Genesis 3 and death is one of them but a sin nature curse is never mentioned .

We all need to be born again .

So a person can at 2 choose not to sin from the point they decide to death ?

Think about the logic there .

Enoch died ,for that which is mortal ,must put on immortal.death for the saints is a change but the body dies.enoch at his gate doesnt need food or water or eye glasses

His physical body doesn't exist.

It has to be given to him .

On children then no child could choose not to sin.
They simply have no iclination to sin and disease is a curse from God .was there a curse on Adam with death before sin ?

Jesus got sick because it's natural disease and decay all from the curse of sin .death isn't in God's idea of paradise therefore no one sinless will ever die .

Enoch was transformed but he did die physically to undergo that .his body that ages will be no more.

That's a physical curse all have ,all get sick ,no one is exempt .Jesus had the choice to take on the curse of sin .we don't

If you don't want to sin per your own logic you at 2 won't want to not need to .yet a two year old is usually selfish ,needs to be guided not to be inclined to rebel ,they through tantrums if they don't get their way .


That is the inclination to sin .while parents can be that way .it's not something they teach their kids .to be selfish like that .I had a grandchild say she hated me when I didn't let her have her way at three .

She would say mean things then go the opposite at times .her maternal nature .my wife does that .

Yet at three that girl wasn't living with me .we visited and vice versa but well she at 13 is like her grandmother .those two argue often and I have to step in . They clash .

My nature is much like my dad ,now dead.i hear and see him in me and I get terrified as I promised myself not to be that way.

My dad later repented ,but that nature of him is in me . My brother has a son that bears my stoic pondering nature .never have spent much time like that with him .he has been that way since a toddler .

 

[hawkman]

Enoch died ,for that which is mortal ,must put on immortal.death for the saints is a change but the body dies.enoch at his gate doesnt need food or water or eye glasses

His physical body doesn't exist.

It has to be given to him .

Enoch was transformed but he did die physically to undergo that .his body that ages will be no more.

God took Enoch . That is all we get , anything else is speculation .

Genesis 5:24​

“And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”

If you don't want to sin per your own logic you at 2 won't want to not need to .yet a two year old is usually selfish ,needs to be guided not to be inclined to rebel ,they through tantrums if they don't get their way .


That is the inclination to sin .while parents can be that way .it's not something they teach their kids .to be selfish like that .I had a grandchild say she hated me when I didn't let her have her way at three .

Human nature the same one Adam and Eve and everyone after had , but not a sin nature .

My nature is much like my dad ,now dead.i hear and see him in me and I get terrified as I promised myself not to be that way.

I understand .