Does man have free will to choose salvation?

[electedbyHim]

“Conceived in sin”

Looking again at Psalm 51:5, David said, “In sin did my mother conceive me” (ESV). This doesn’t mean that he was conceived illegitimately. Instead, this verse speaks to the fact that David’s mother was a sinner. She inherited that sinful nature from her parents, and they from theirs, and so on throughout the genealogical line all the way back to Adam and Eve. Psalm 58:3 states the same truth: “Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.” The birth of a human being means that one more sinner populates the earth. Everyone is “conceived in sin.”

 

[Fish153]

I have not said that God forces anyone against their will.

God predestines or elects who He will have grace on and grant salvation.

How can sinful man choose anything of God?

Because of the fall, man has become spiritually dead, blind and deaf to the things of God and is therefore unable of himself to choose spiritual good and determine his own destiny.

Genesis 6:5 Then Yahweh saw that the evil of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can know it?

Romans 3:10-18 as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME WORTHLESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.” “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN TOMB, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,” “THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”; “WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”; “THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD, DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS, AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.” “THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

I agree. Dead men cannot make "choices" any more than Lazarus could make any choice UNTIL Jesus called him forth from the grave. We are "dead in trespasses and sins" and we are so greatly fallen and depraved that none of us can "choose" salvation. Please see Acts 16 where it says:

"And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: WHOSE HEART THE LORD OPENED, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul". (Acts 16:14)

Yes----it says "she worshipped God"---but many people "worship God" in their religious ways----but God MUST OPEN our hearts for us to believe the real truth. THEN we can "attend unto the things were are spoken of Paul". Even John 1:12 says we are "born of God"---not by OUR WILL or determination. No one can choose to be born of God----it is God who does the choosing. God must first act upon our hearts---then we are given the ability to believe the Gospel by the Holy Spirit. Election is a mystery. God does not "elect" anyone to damnation---but it does say we who believe were "chosen in him before the foundation of the world". God is infinite in understanding---we are finite beings. We will understand one day when God shows us how all of this falls into place. But for now, God has not chosen for us to completely understand it. We just need to accept it and believe it.

 

[electedbyHim]

I agree. Dead men cannot make "choices" any more than Lazarus could make any choice UNTIL Jesus called him forth from the grave. We are "dead in trespasses and sins" and we are so greatly fallen and depraved that none of us can "choose" salvation. Please see Acts 16 where it says:

"And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: WHOSE HEART THE LORD OPENED, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul". (Acts 16:14)

Yes----it says "she worshipped God"---but many people "worship God" in their religious ways----but God MUST OPEN our hearts for us to believe the real truth. THEN we can "attend unto the things were are spoken of Paul". Even John 1:12 says we are "born of God"---not by OUR WILL or determination. No one can choose to be born of God----it is God who does the choosing. God must first act upon our hearts---then we are given the ability to believe the Gospel by the Holy Spirit. Election is a mystery. God does not "elect" anyone to damnation---but it does say we who believe were "chosen in him before the foundation of the world". God is infinite in understanding---we are finite beings. We will understand one day when God shows us how all of this falls into place. But for now, God has not chosen for us to completely understand it. We just need to accept it and believe it.

Thank you.

 

[hawkman]

At conception of both parents.

Are you saying both parents have this corruption in their beings ? Yes or No or do you have another answer ?

I do not know the particulairs unless I research it in depth.

Research and study and show yourself approved .

15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[electedbyHim]

Are you saying both parents have this corruption in their beings ? Yes or No or do you have another answer ?


Research and study and show yourself approved .

15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Are you saying both parents have this corruption in their beings

All humans, male and female are born with sin, so Yes.

Research and study and show yourself approved .

15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Indeed.

Definately when I have the time.

 

[electedbyHim]

All humans, male and female are born with sin, so Yes.



Indeed.

Definately when I have the time.

To clarify.

I understand that I post a lot of studies and articles more than anyone else on this forum.

Let it not be said that I am indoctrinated by these tools that I use.

I have a plethora of study tools, including books, software and sermons. Probably more than most Pastors. I have issues when it comes to purchasing and obtaining Biblical tools. I always start with Scripture and end with Scripture.

One would think I could articulate my beliefs without the use of copying and pasting my resources, however, it is just not so for some reason.

Early on in my Christianity, I weighed out and researched both sides of a Biblical or Theological argument.

As I have stated elsewhere, the Doctrines of Grace (Calvinism) was not taught to me, I have always seen it in Scripture before I knew what it was labeled. It was more defined to me when someone gave me a copy of the Sovereighnty of God by A.W. Pink and read it.

Anyhow, I went on a tangent, apologies.

 

[hawkman]

Are you saying both parents have this corruption in their beings ?

Your answer .

All humans, male and female are born with sin, so Yes.

OK ! Now we are making progress , thank you for bearing with me .

Next I have to cut and paste your quote from post #241 because a gray quote box can't be quoted out of , sadly .

electedbyHim said in post #241 .

“Conceived in sin”
Looking again at Psalm 51:5, David said, “In sin did my mother conceive me” (ESV). This doesn’t mean that he was conceived illegitimately. Instead, this verse speaks to the fact that David’s mother was a sinner. She inherited that sinful nature from her parents, and they from theirs, and so on throughout the genealogical line all the way back to Adam and Eve. Psalm 58:3 states the same truth: “Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.” The birth of a human being means that one more sinner populates the earth. Everyone is “conceived in sin.”
End of quote post #241

According to this statement the corruption is inherited through the genes ! !

So where does that leave Jesus the Son of God ? Seed of a woman , no denying that fact .

If we have corruption through the genes of a woman so does Jesus , no way around that .

Now electedbyHim do you see why I am looking for this elusive corruption ? ?

 

[JLB]

It was said the corruption is there at conception so the question , is the corruption present in the sperm of the male parent or in the egg of the female parent or is it possibly present in both ?

The sperm of the male.

Which is why Jesus was born of a virgin.

 

[hawkman]

The sperm of the male.

Which is why Jesus was born of a virgin.

Was Mary , Jesus's mother born with out a male parent ? Mary was formed from the sperm of a male and the egg of a female .

 

[electedbyHim]

Your answer .

OK ! Now we are making progress , thank you for bearing with me .

Next I have to cut and paste your quote from post #241 because a gray quote box can't be quoted out of , sadly .

electedbyHim said in post #241 .

“Conceived in sin”
Looking again at Psalm 51:5, David said, “In sin did my mother conceive me” (ESV). This doesn’t mean that he was conceived illegitimately. Instead, this verse speaks to the fact that David’s mother was a sinner. She inherited that sinful nature from her parents, and they from theirs, and so on throughout the genealogical line all the way back to Adam and Eve. Psalm 58:3 states the same truth: “Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.” The birth of a human being means that one more sinner populates the earth. Everyone is “conceived in sin.”
End of quote post #241

According to this statement the corruption is inherited through the genes ! !

So where does that leave Jesus the Son of God ? Seed of a woman , no denying that fact .

If we have corruption through the genes of a woman so does Jesus , no way around that .

Now electedbyHim do you see why I am looking for this elusive corruption ? ?

I understand your view.

So where does that leave Jesus the Son of God ? Seed of a woman , no denying that fact .

I can always quote Deuteronomy 29:29.

For me, the issue is just as complex as the Trinity and Jesus being fully God and fully human.

I was reading about your very question the other day and will look at those resources and give an answer no later than tomorrow morning/lunch.

For the rest of the evening, it is date night with the wife.

This is awesome Christian communication.

Thank you.

 

[hawkman]

I was reading about your very question the other day and will look at those resources and give an answer no later than tomorrow morning/lunch.

Sure , sounds good .

For the rest of the evening, it is date night with the wife.

Enjoy !

This is awesome Christian communication.

Thank you.

Iron sharpens iron .

 

[Fish153]

Your answer .

OK ! Now we are making progress , thank you for bearing with me .

Next I have to cut and paste your quote from post #241 because a gray quote box can't be quoted out of , sadly .

electedbyHim said in post #241 .

“Conceived in sin”
Looking again at Psalm 51:5, David said, “In sin did my mother conceive me” (ESV). This doesn’t mean that he was conceived illegitimately. Instead, this verse speaks to the fact that David’s mother was a sinner. She inherited that sinful nature from her parents, and they from theirs, and so on throughout the genealogical line all the way back to Adam and Eve. Psalm 58:3 states the same truth: “Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.” The birth of a human being means that one more sinner populates the earth. Everyone is “conceived in sin.”
End of quote post #241

According to this statement the corruption is inherited through the genes ! !

So where does that leave Jesus the Son of God ? Seed of a woman , no denying that fact .

If we have corruption through the genes of a woman so does Jesus , no way around that .

Now electedbyHim do you see why I am looking for this elusive corruption ? ?

Hawkman--- you are greatly mistaken. The WHOLE reason that the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary was to avoid the "genes" of mankind. Joseph was not Jesus' father. The Holy Spirit placed the Son of God in Mary's womb---she was a "virgin"----the "genes" were not in play. Jesus did not inherit a "fallen" bloodline. God avoided that by placing Jesus in Mary's womb. Do you understand? There was NO EGG AND SPERM. Jesus was not part Mary and part God. He was the unique SON OF GOD---miraculously placed in the womb by God Himself. Your theology is incorrect.

 

[hawkman]

Hawkman--- you are greatly mistaken. The WHOLE reason that the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary was to avoid the "genes" of mankind. Joseph was not Jesus' father. The Holy Spirit placed the Son of God in Mary's womb---she was a "virgin"----the "genes" were not in play. Jesus did not inherit a "fallen" bloodline. God avoided that by placing Jesus in Mary's womb. Do you understand? There was NO EGG AND SPERM. Jesus was not part Mary and part God. He was the unique SON OF GOD---miraculously placed in the womb by God Himself. Your theology is incorrect.

Was Jesus seed of Abraham ? YES !

Was Jesus seed of a woman ? YES !

It starts here in Genesis 3 with the seed of a woman .

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Jesus was not placed in her womb for we are told in this verse . Conceive . Seed of a woman .

31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Here is what was told to Abraham . SEED .

15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

16And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Jesus did not inherit a "fallen" bloodline.

Just as we did not either .