Does man have free will to choose salvation?

[jasonc]

God took Enoch . That is all we get , anything else is speculation .

Genesis 5:24​

“And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”


Human nature the same one Adam and Eve and everyone after had , but not a sin nature .


I understand .

Adam choose to sin .if there there is no curse why do people die ?

Babies die in utero , the fact is death is from Adam that's the curse of sin .

Babies die at a month etc

A person not under the curse is not under the curse of death

Do you really think that my body with asthma will be in heaven ?




No Enoch didnt sin ?

So you believe that you can be sinless right now

 

[JLB]

Was Mary , Jesus's mother born with out a male parent ? Mary was formed from the sperm of a male and the egg of a female .

Yes of course Mary was born with what some call “original sin”.

Which is why the Catholic doctrine of immaculate conception is heresy.

The doctrine of immaculate conception teaches that Mary was born sinless.


JLB

 

[hawkman]

Adam choose to sin .if there there is no curse why do people die ?

Babies die in utero , the fact is death is from Adam that's the curse of sin .

Babies die at a month etc

A person not under the curse is not under the curse of death

Adam sinned and it brought death to all mankind , I understand this .

A sin nature , where is it in the human body ? And who put it there ?

Do you really think that my body with asthma will be in heaven ?

Our body will be like His , that is what we are told . But we also told this .

4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

No Enoch didnt sin ?

So God took the sinful Enoch ? Where is your indication of that ?

 

[hawkman]

Yes of course Mary was born with what some call “original sin”.

So with this there is no way that Jesus could avoid this " original sin " because he is seed of a woman .

 

[jasonc]

Adam sinned and it brought death to all mankind , I understand this .

A sin nature , where is it in the human body ? And who put it there ?

Our body will be like His , that is what we are told . But we also told this .

4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

So God took the sinful Enoch ? Where is you indication of that ?

He inputs righteousness

Did you not read that all the saints operated by faith

By faith Abel pleased God..

It wasn't works .if a child is sinless at birth then he knows Jesus better then Paul the apostle by default as no serperation exists

Paul writes and spoke our bodies dying before mentioning the oft quotes versus of the rapture

He compares it to a seed planted and springing forth but the seed dies .
Our mortal bodies are that .


By faith .

Elijah was under the law of Moses
Where is the verses where he could not atone ?

 

[hawkman]

It wasn't works .if a child is sinless at birth then he knows Jesus better then Paul the apostle by default as no serperation exists

New International Version
Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

 

[jasonc]

New International Version
Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

That's the way the understand and I'm that time children even in jewry were treated as second class .Jesus stated that for a reason.

But you ignore that it doesn't say Enoch was sinless .it just says he by faith had pleased God

You also didn't address the logic of sinless perfection.which isn't in the bible.

Look I have younger sister ,she is 45 ,she will be never Marry ,own anything or understand much .yet she can be very mean and greedy and yet doesn't understand what she is

Free states this with another thread

I think there will be exceptions based on mental capacity. God is just, and in the end, every single person will know that they got the judgement they deserved.

 

[hawkman]

But you ignore that it doesn't say Enoch was sinless .it just says he by faith had pleased God

You ignore there are no sins listed for Enoch , we can not ascertain for certain either way . But God took him .

You also didn't address the logic of sinless perfection.which isn't in the bible.

To be sinless is the goal we should all be striving for . Are you there yet ? I am not .


One more time for this question which I can't get an answer to .

A sin nature , where is it in the human body ? And who put it there ?

 

[Oseas]

So God took the sinful Enoch ? Where is your indication of that ?

He took also the sinful Elyjah, no? - James 5:17-18:
17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

 

[hawkman]

No more Enoch and Elijah posts , back to the subject of the OP .

 

[electedbyHim]

I tend to lean more towrds what this author writes.

Let it be said, I do not think we can really know why Christ was born without sin.

In order for the Deliverer to free mankind from sin, He would need to be sinless Himself. This line from The HOPE summarizes the truth of a key theological doctrine. The Deliverer had to fulfill the Law in order to be the mediator and reconciler between God and man. In order to fulfill the Law, He had to be without sin.

Many verses in the Bible state that the Deliverer was without sin (Hebrews 4:15, 2 Corinthians 5:21, 1 Peter 2:22, 1 John 3:5. But how is this possible? Repeatedly in our study of The HOPE we have read about the sin that has infected all mankind. And from Romans 5:12 above we read that “just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.” How then could the Deliverer be born of a human and not be infected with sin? Let’s consider two possibilities.

First, we must acknowledge that if God can do whatever He pleases, then He could certainly have miraculously protected Jesus from being polluted by sin while He was inside Mary’s womb.

Second, we must consider carefully Romans 5:12. Notice that the verse says that “through one man sin entered the world” and so death spread to “all men.” The verse does not say through “one man and one woman” sin entered the world. Sin entered the world through Adam, not through Eve. It was Adam, not Eve, who passed sin on to their descendants.2 Perhaps this is why in Genesis 3:15, God promises that the One who will bruise (literally “crush”) Satan on the head will be One who comes from the seed of woman, not from the seed of man.

It is a known fact that certain traits, disorders, and diseases are transmitted only by fathers, or only by mothers. Similarly, it is possible that sin (the power of sin, not the act of sin) is passed down from generation to generation to every person through the father, not the mother. In the case of Jesus, through a miraculous conception by the power of the Spirit, God was His Father, and so Jesus was without sin. Despite what some religions teach, this would explain why Mary did not have to be sinless in order for Jesus to be born sinless. As a woman, her sin would not have been passed on. The Bible says that every person that has ever lived has sin Romans 3:23, Romans 3:10…except Jesus! 2 Corinthians 5:21, 1 John 3:5, Hebrews 4:15.
thehopeproject.com

On a side not to being born in sin.

RC Sproul on creationism and traducianism...

One of the oldest theological questions is the question of how the soul is transmitted from parents to their children. The two schools of thought on that are creationism and traducianism. Traducianism says that the whole person, body and soul, is transmitted from the parents to their progeny through the natural process of birth. Creationism argues that every time a human being is born, that person is a brand new creation by the immediate and direct power of God’s creativity. So, for creationism, it’s not a matter of transmitting human nature by natural processes.

The reason I say that this question touches on the dispute over creationism and traducianism is that if you’re a creationist, you have no problem with a human nature coming from the mother of Jesus, yet at the same time Jesus being born without original sin. The soul, in this view, is a direct and immediate act of divine creation. If you’re a traducianist, on the other hand, you see the body and soul being transmitted through the natural process. Then the question becomes a more difficult problem.

 

[jasonc]

You ignore there are no sins listed for Enoch , we can not ascertain for certain either way . But God took him .

To be sinless is the goal we should all be striving for . Are you there yet ? I am not .


One more time for this question which I can't get an answer to .

A sin nature , where is it in the human body ? And who put it there ?

It's in our mortal bodies ,we don't die in heaven,get sick or age sin affects everything

We don't keep our birth defects.
I have spina bifuda from birth .

 

[hawkman]

It's in our mortal bodies ,

Even if you are a Christian ? Is it in the flesh , dna ?

 

[hawkman]

Many verses in the Bible state that the Deliverer was without sin (Hebrews 4:15, 2 Corinthians 5:21, 1 Peter 2:22, 1 John 3:5. But how is this possible? Repeatedly in our study of The HOPE we have read about the sin that has infected all mankind. And from Romans 5:12 above we read that “just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.” How then could the Deliverer be born of a human and not be infected with sin? Let’s consider two possibilities.

First, we must acknowledge that if God can do whatever He pleases, then He could certainly have miraculously protected Jesus from being polluted by sin while He was inside Mary’s womb.

Second, we must consider carefully Romans 5:12. Notice that the verse says that “through one man sin entered the world” and so death spread to “all men.” The verse does not say through “one man and one woman” sin entered the world. Sin entered the world through Adam, not through Eve. It was Adam, not Eve, who passed sin on to their descendants.2 Perhaps this is why in Genesis 3:15, God promises that the One who will bruise (literally “crush”) Satan on the head will be One who comes from the seed of woman, not from the seed of man.

The sin germ ? Infected ? Or since he did say passed on it must be in the DNA . The writer seems confused .

What do you say electedbyHim ?

A sin nature , where is it in the human body ?

So maybe DNA in the genes .

And who put it there ?

And right here is your biggest problem no matter where we find the sin nature .

WHO PUT IT THERE ?

 

[jasonc]

Even if you are a Christian ? Is it in the flesh , dna ?

You believe that redemption is only spiritual?

Jesus has a body that was raised. he was resurrected as body bearing the wounds of
The cross

You also believe that a baby at one day is sinless and has access to the Godhead and isn't a Christian and yet must be taught by the way state this

Adam pre fall walked with God ,he didn't fear God .a baby would know Jesus and understand him.

Yes intelligence etc but you are arguing that the soul is the sin agent and not the body therefore his soul must already be able to commune with God .

Yet one day reject God .

I wonder after death ends ,you think we can reject God you are arguing g
That

 

[electedbyHim]

The sin germ ? Infected ? Or since he did say passed on it must be in the DNA . The writer seems confused .

What do you say electedbyHim ?

So maybe DNA in the genes .

And right here is your biggest problem no matter where we find the sin nature .

WHO PUT IT THERE ?

Sin is imputed from Adam.

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Romans 5:19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were appointed sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be appointed righteous.

 

[Fastfredy0]

So God took the sinful Enoch ? Where is your indication of that ?

Romans 3:10-12​

Ecclesiastes 7:20 Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins. ​

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. ​

Ecclesiastes 7:20 (ESV) Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.​

.... but, maybe the Bible is in error or maybe Enoch was a Theophany (giggle)

 

[electedbyHim]

Imputed, Reckoned, Counted, Accounted, are translations of the Greek word logizomai (λογιζομαι). The word in the classics meant “to count, reckon, calculate, compute, to set to one’s account.” We will study its use in Gal. 3:6 as an illustration of its use in other passages. The word is used in the papyri as a business term: for instance, “put to one’s account; let my revenues be placed on deposit at the store-house; reckoning the wine to him at 16 drachmae the monochore; a single artabae being reckoned at 180 myriads of denari; I now give orders generally with regard to all payments actually made or credited to the government.”31

Thus Abraham believed God, and his act of faith was placed to his account in value as righteousness. He believed God and his act of faith was placed on deposit for him and evaluated as righteousness. He believed God and his act of faith was computed as to its value, and there was placed to his account, righteousness. He believed God, and his act of faith was credited to his account for righteousness. Finally, he believed God, and his act of faith was credited to him, resulting in righteousness.

All this does not mean, however, that Abraham’s act of faith was looked upon as a meritorious action deserving of reward. It was not viewed as a good work by God and rewarded by the bestowal of righteousness. That would be salvation by works. But the fact that Abraham cast off all dependence upon good works as a means of finding acceptance with God, and accepted God’s way of bestowing salvation, was answered by God in giving him that salvation. Abraham simply put himself in the place where a righteous God could offer him salvation upon the basis of justice satisfied, and in pure grace. God therefore put righteousness to his account. He evaluated Abraham’s act of faith as that which made it possible for Him to give him salvation.

The word logizomai (λογιζομαι) is translated “imputed” in Rom. 4:6, 8, 11, 22, 23, 24; II Cor. 5:19; Jas. 2:23. In Rom. 4:8, the man is called blessed, to whose account no sin is charged. At the Cross, his sin was charged to the account of the Lord Jesus. In Rom. 4:6, the man to whose account righteousness is put, is called blessed. This is imputation, the act of putting something to someone’s account. In the case of the Lord Jesus, the sin of the human race was charged to Him. In the case of the believing sinner, the righteousness of God, Christ Jesus Himself, is put to his account.

It is translated “counted” or “accounted” in the following scriptures; Rom. 2:26, 4:3, 5; Gal. 3:6. In Rom. 2:26 we have, “Shall not his uncircumcision be put to his account for circumcision?”

The scripture where “reckoned” is used is Rom. 4:9, 10. In II Tim. 4:16 we have an excellent illustration of the use of logizomai (λογιζομαι) in the words, “I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.” The above treatment of logizomai (λογιζομαι) is chiefly confined to its use in connection with the substitutionary atonement for sin. There are other uses which are not covered by the foregoing work.[1]

---

31 Moulton and Milligan.
[1]Wuest, K. S. (1997, c1984). Wuest's word studies from the Greek New Testament : For the English reader (Studies in the Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament: p.84-86). Grand Rapids: Eerdmans.

 

[electedbyHim]

1. Imputed Sin

This, and the division of this theme which follows, has been given extended consideration in the previous article. Little more need be added here on these aspects of sin than is necessary to identify them with the subject as a whole. It may be restated, however, that from the original human sin which was committed by the federal head of the race with all his representative character involving every human being that would be born upon the earth, save One, have proceeded two forms of death-death physical, and death spiritual. This division of the subject is concerned with Imputed Sin and its effect, death physical. Because of the almost universal assumption that physical death is a part of God’s original plan for the race, it cannot be too strongly emphasized that man, as created, was as deathless as the angels, and that, until man sinned, death in all its forms was foreign to this universe. In this connection, the Word of God discloses what unaided man could never discover,namely, that death is visited upon man because of sin, that it is a penalty imposed upon Adam and his posterity because of the first human sin and quite apart from all subsequent human sin.



As before stated, imputation may or may not be of that which antecedently belongs to the one to whom it is imputed. A judicial imputation is the reckoning over to a person of something which is not one’s by right or title, while a real imputation is the reckoning over to one of that which is one’s by right and title. A real imputation is an official recognition of that which already exists. The Scriptures reveal that, because of the representative character of Adam in whose loins was the entire race (cf. Heb 7:9, 10), each and every one who comprises the race actually shared in the first sin and is therefore under the immediate sentence of death as a real imputation. Men die physically, not because of the fact that Adam sinned, but because of the fact that each member of the race, by divine reckoning, sinned when Adam disobeyed God. By his creation, Adam was no doubt an immortal being, but by one sin he became mortal. By the fall his body became a death-doomed, dying body. Thus the physical death of any individual person is not due to his own sins or those of his parents, but is due, as the Apostle proves, to the individual’s racial participation in the Adamic sin. This, as has been pointed out, is the teaching of the one great passage in which the origin of physical death is disclosed (Rom 5:12–21). But with regard to the one original human sin itself, it may be observed that, because of the aorist tense (ἥμαρτον) and the absence in the original of the word have which appears in the Authorized text, it is probable also that Romans 3:23 refers to the one initial sin of the race rather than to the personal sins of each individual human being (cf. Rom 6:23). The Scriptures also assure us that death, which came as a subsequent, intruding judgment upon God’s human creation, will yet, as the “last enemy,” be destroyed (1 Cor 15:26); from which time the human family will, because of the termination of death, go on, in whatsoever state they are, with an unendable existence.

2. The Sin Nature

The second effect of the original human sin is death spiritual. As Jehovah covenanted with Adam, death ensued on the very day that he sinned. On that day Adam became a spiritually dead creature, separated from God, and unable to propagate other than spiritually dead offspring. For this cause the race is fallen and depraved and the injury, while traceable to Adam’s first sin, is transmitted from father to son through all intervening generations. Human history offers a complete corroboration of every phase of this far-reaching doctrine. The fallen Adamic nature is as the tree from which personal sin as a fruit is borne. So closely related is this tree to its fruit that, in certain restricted passages (Rom 6:1 to 8:4; 1 John 1:1–10) both are referred to by the same term-Sin. In reading these Scriptures, it is not difficult to distinguish the references to a nature which as a fontal cause ever promotes evil conduct on the part of men. It is the fallen nature, designated as the “old man,” which was crucified with Christ; for Christ died unto the sin nature as fully and efficiently as He died for the sins which are the fruit of that nature (Rom 6:6, 10). The child of God is not to yield to the sin nature (Rom 6:11–13, 16–23); for, under the present enabling power of the indwelling Spirit which is the unique provision for the Christian under grace, it is provided that “sin shall not have dominion” (Rom 6:14). Similarly, in 1 John 1:8 the Apostle states concerning the sin nature, “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” Useless it is, indeed, for anyone to deny the possession of a sin nature. Those who do so are said to be deceived. Over against this, it is written (1 John 1:10) with regard to personal sin which is the fruit of the old nature, “If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” The recognition of one’s own personal sin presents no metaphysical problems, therefore to deny one’s personal sin is to demonstrate that little heed has been given to the Word of God.

Lewis Sperry Chafer Dallas Theological Seminary. (1936; 2002). Bibliotheca Sacra Volume 93 (93:263-288).

 

[hawkman]

Sin is imputed from Adam.

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Romans 5:19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were appointed sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be appointed righteous.

Are you saying Adam somehow put sin in our DNA ? OR ? ?