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Does man have free will to choose salvation?

Both jews and Gentiles are the elect

You are making generalizations with no know scripture or context.

Jews are the elect. They were elected to be the lineage of Christ.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


Paul desired for the elect (Jews) to also obtain salvation which is in Christ Jesus.
 
You speak foolishly friend, The Bible compares regeneration to a birth.
I thought it was you comparing them .
The intent is to convey the idea that, whereas a man cannot perform natural action until he is born naturally, neither can he perform spiritual action until he is born spiritually !
Man can do exactly what is required so that the Spiritual action occurs.
God performs the Spiritual action.
Without repenting from sin, and getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, no rebirth will occur.
 
You are making generalizations with no know scripture or context.

Jews are the elect. They were elected to be the lineage of Christ.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


Paul desired for the elect (Jews) to also obtain salvation which is in Christ Jesus.
Yes, the Jews were and probably are God's elect of national election, but believing Jews and Gentiles are the personal elected individuals, according to Ephesians 1:3-14.
 
Okay so the fact one must be born again isn't a command to obey,
Rebirth is the result of actions man must take first.
I don't look at rebirth as a command so much as I see rebirth as a "must do" in order for other, later actions, to occur.
If one is not reborn, they will not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, or be able to endure faithfully until the end.
no more so is one must be raised from the dead is a command to obey, for being born again/and resurrection are one and the same
Let's agree that both rebirth and the final resurrection to eternal life are things that will happen, if we turn from sin and get baptized into Christ and into His death, burial, and His resurrection.
 
You are making generalizations with no know scripture or context.

Jews are the elect. They were elected to be the lineage of Christ.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


Paul desired for the elect (Jews) to also obtain salvation which is in Christ Jesus.
Where in that verse or the context of that verse is the idea that only the Jews are the elect?
 
Hopeful 2



Consider this portion of article,
I can only thank God for what He has done.
Like offering me the gifts of repentance from sin, and baptism in the name of His Son for the remission of past sins.
And the gift of the Holy Ghost, and His words in large print.
And dozens of other things too.
All I did was take Him up on His offers.
If I had not accepted His terms, I would still be a sinner.
 
I don’t know what your point is here with this post.

Do you agree or disagree that one must believe to be saved.


Faith is a noun.

We receive faith from God when we hear Him speak to us; whether directly or through those He sends to preach the Gospel.

  • So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17


Believing (obeying) is our part and is a verb; the action we choose to do or not do, when we hear God speak.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12
  • lest they should believe and be saved

These by the wayside did if fact hear the Gospel message of salvation but they didn’t believe, and therefore were not saved.


The condition required for one to be saved is to believe.

  • lest they should believe and be saved
My point is that faith and belief are used interchangably as the same.



Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

G4102
πίστις
pistis
Thayer Definition:
1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
1a) relating to God
1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
1b) relating to Christ
1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
1c) the religious beliefs of Christians
1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2) fidelity, faithfulness
2a) the character of one who can be relied on
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3982
Citing in TDNT: 6:174, 849

The next verse in Ephesians says man's faith (belief) is nothing he did.

It is all the work of God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Ephesians 2:9 not of works, so that no one may boast.

It is not hard to undersatnd, we sinful humans like to complicate things from our pride.
 
My point is that faith and belief are used interchangably as the same.



Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

G4102
πίστις
pistis
Thayer Definition:
1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
1a) relating to God
1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
1b) relating to Christ
1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
1c) the religious beliefs of Christians
1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2) fidelity, faithfulness
2a) the character of one who can be relied on
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3982
Citing in TDNT: 6:174, 849

The next verse in Ephesians says man's faith (belief) is nothing he did.

It is all the work of God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Ephesians 2:9 not of works, so that no one may boast.

It is not hard to undersatnd, we sinful humans like to complicate things from our pride.
To you, which is the gift/not of your own...the grace?...or the faith ?
To me, it is the grace.
 
Where in that verse or the context of that verse is the idea that only the Jews are the elect?

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


Where did I say in my post that this verse teaches that only the Jews are the elect?


Paul in this verse, is referring to the Jews as the elect, and expresses his desire that they also may obtain salvation.


If you don’t believe Paul is referring to the Jews, that they also may obtain salvation, then please explain why you believe the elect refers to another group of people that he desires to also obtain salvation?


If he desires the elect to also obtain salvation then who is the primary group that is not the elect that has obtained salvation?
 
My point is that faith and belief are used interchangably as the same.

There not the same.

That is why many are confused about the doctrine of salvation and why there is such division in the body of Christ about salvation.


Faith is what we receive from God, when we hear Him speak to us.


Believe is our part. Believe is the action we do in response to what God has spoken to us.

If we hear the Gospel and don’t believe it then we won’t be saved.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

  • lest they should believe and be saved.

These by the wayside, Jesus gave as an example of people who hear the Gospel but don’t believe.



There is much more to discuss about this subject but I will pause here to see if we agree on this part.




JLB
 
There not the same.

That is why many are confused about the doctrine of salvation and why there is such division in the body of Christ about salvation.


Faith is what we receive from God, when we hear Him speak to us.


Believe is our part. Believe is the action we do in response to what God has spoken to us.

If we hear the Gospel and don’t believe it then we won’t be saved.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

  • lest they should believe and be saved.

These by the wayside, Jesus gave as an example of people who hear the Gospel but don’t believe.



There is much more to discuss about this subject but I will pause here to see if we agree on this part.




JLB
No condusion here.

I gave you the word defintions on both faith and blieve.

If you want to take away from God's sovereignty over salvation that is on you.

Pride is behind all sins and very deceptive.

What advantage is there to say I believed on my own or my faith saved me?

All that does is take glory away from God and gives you some.

Basically you are saying God is not sufficient in salvation, He needs mans help.

Synergism in theology refers to the doctrine that salvation involves a cooperation between divine grace and human freedom. It posits that both God’s initiative and human response are necessary for salvation, and that neither alone is sufficient. This perspective stands in contrast to monergism, which emphasizes the sole agency of God in salvation.
 
I gave you the word defintions on both faith and blieve.

Here is what you gave as a definition for faith -

G4102
πίστις
pistis
Thayer Definition:
1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
1a) relating to God
1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
1b) relating to Christ
1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
1c) the religious beliefs of Christians
1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2) fidelity, faithfulness
2a) the character of one who can be relied on
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3982
Citing in TDNT: 6:174, 849




Here is how scripture shows us what faith is -

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


Here is how scripture says faith comes to us -

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17


Again faith is a noun.

It’s substance that we receive when God speaks to us.


Do you agree or disagree?
 
If you want to take away from God's sovereignty over salvation that is on you.


Could you please provide the scripture that teaches us about “God’s Sovereignty over salvation” so I know what you mean.

I thought we were discussing the relationship of faith and believing in salvation?


So far I have said Faith is a noun and believe is a verb so they are not the same.
 
Could you please provide the scripture that teaches us about “God’s Sovereignty over salvation” so I know what you mean.

I thought we were discussing the relationship of faith and believing in salvation?


So far I have said Faith is a noun and believe is a verb so they are not the same.
Read the whole Bible.

Better yet, do a study on Theology Proper, Soteriology and Hamartiology.

I know many of the people on this forum do not like Theology or doctrine, because supposedly it is man;s interpretation.

However, isn't that exactly what you people do that are against these vital Biblical tools?

You condemn them as man made doctrines, yet interpret the Bible as you see fit.

See the hypocrisy in that?
 
Who said that ?

Faith requires something to make it complete. Do you understand what that is?

Would you like to discuss it.
We are discussing this.

Faith and belief are used interchangeably.

Faith vs. belief—what is the difference?​

Answer

On one hand, there is no difference between faith and belief. The two terms are often used interchangeably. The Gospel of John was written so that “you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name” (John 20:31). The Gospel of John does not even use the word faith, although the concept of faith is thoroughly woven into John. Throughout Scripture, there is no distinction between faith and belief.

On the other hand, in popular English usage, the word faith often has a deeper meaning. Belief often refers to an intellectual acceptance of facts. If you ask the average person on the street if he believes in Alexander the Great or Abraham Lincoln, he would probably interpret the question to mean, “Do you believe that such a person existed?” Most, no doubt, would answer in the affirmative. However, faith, in modern usage, has the added idea of trust and commitment.

Many people believe that Alexander the Great existed. When he was alive, many had faith in him as well, trusting him to protect them, lead them into battle, and expand the Greek Empire. However, it would be safe to assume that no one alive today is trusting him to do anything for them. They believe in his existence, but they do not have faith in him.

Most people believe it is important to eat healthy foods and exercise regularly; however, most people do not personally eat healthy food and exercise regularly. They believe that a certain set of facts is true, but they have not committed themselves to the implications of the facts. They have belief but not faith, in the modern sense.

Likewise, many people today believe a certain set of facts about God, and in some cases their facts may be completely orthodox. However, if they have never committed themselves to God, if they have not trusted Him, then they do not have faith or biblical belief in Him. Biblical faith (biblical belief) is never simply giving assent to a certain set of facts. Biblical faith is trust and commitment that result in a change of behavior. James 2:19 puts it this way: “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.” The demons believe that God exists, and they may even know more about God than people do, but they do not have faith in Him. Unfortunately, many people have the same kind of belief that the demons have, but that it is not sufficient for their salvation.

This concept can be illustrated another way: three people board a commercial airliner to travel to a distant city. The first is an engineer who designs and builds airplanes. He is also a pilot. He knows how everything works. Furthermore, he is a personal friend of the pilot who will be flying that afternoon, and he knows him to be very competent. He boards the plane with full confidence. The second person is just the average business traveler. He knows a little bit about airplanes but just doesn’t think about it too much. He takes his seat and starts reading a magazine. The third is deathly afraid of flying. He breaks out in a cold sweat. It takes all he can do not to turn and flee down the gangway. With much fear and trembling, he gets on the plane, sits down, and hopes he can fall asleep and not wake up until they land. So the question is, “who has more faith in the plane?” The answer is that they all have the same amount of faith. All of them have boarded the plane and committed their safety to the plane and the crew. They will only arrive at their destination if the plane arrives. If the plane goes down, they will go down, too. All the people who got on the plane were committing themselves to the plane—they believed (or had faith) in the plane. Those who stayed at the airport, even if they had complete confidence that the plane would arrive as scheduled, did not exercise faith in the plane. They did not commit themselves to it.

In summary, faith and belief are used interchangeably. However, the New Testament does recognize that people can have false faith or incomplete belief, which is inadequate. The difference is not between the two words but between the concepts of mental agreement and wholehearted commitment. In modern usage, belief often refers to mental agreement, and faith refers to wholehearted commitment. As long as that distinction is maintained, it doesn’t matter which words are used. However, we need to be careful not to import the modern usage back into specific New Testament passages. Gotquestions.org

God's salvation does not change, it is pretty straight forward.

You would do well to study Systematic Theology.
 
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


Where did I say in my post that this verse teaches that only the Jews are the elect?


Paul in this verse, is referring to the Jews as the elect, and expresses his desire that they also may obtain salvation.


If you don’t believe Paul is referring to the Jews, that they also may obtain salvation, then please explain why you believe the elect refers to another group of people that he desires to also obtain salvation?


If he desires the elect to also obtain salvation then who is the primary group that is not the elect that has obtained salvation?
Well, you were responding to this statement: "Both jews and Gentiles are the elect."

You replied with:

"You are making generalizations with no know scripture or context.

Jews are the elect. They were elected to be the lineage of Christ.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10

Paul desired for the elect (Jews) to also obtain salvation which is in Christ Jesus."


By responding to "Both jews and Gentiles are the elect" with statements such as "Jews are the elect" and "the elect (Jews)," and providing a verse which sates "for the sake of the elect," your post strongly suggests that only the Jews are the elect and that 2 Tim. 2:10 supports that idea. If not, it is hard to know what the meaning of your post is, other than being guilty of the very thing you accuse the other of--"making generalizations with no know scripture or context."

So, where in that verse or the context of that verse, is Paul speaking of Jews?

If that verse is speaking of one group of people, that is, either Jews or Gentiles, then it is speaking of Gentiles. Although Paul did preach to the Jews, usually on the Sabbath, and other apostles preached to the Gentiles on occasion, Paul refers to himself as "an apostle to the Gentiles" (Rom 11:13) and that he "was appointed a preacher and and apostle . . . a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim 2:7). See also, Acts 9:15, 22:21, 26:17-18, Rom. 15:16, Gal. 1:15-16, 2:7-9, and Eph. 3:8.

But, also, look at the start of 2 Tim.:

2Ti 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God,
2Ti 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
2Ti 1:10 and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
2Ti 1:11 for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher,
2Ti 1:12 which is why I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that day what has been entrusted to me. (ESV)

And that forms part of the context for what he says in chapter 2:

2Ti 2:8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel,
2Ti 2:9 for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound!
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. (ESV)

To put all of that together then, Paul was appointed by God to be an apostle to the Gentiles and preach the gospel, for which he suffered greatly, including being imprisoned. There is nothing about the Jews only in 2 Tim 2:10, as you claim, but if Paul is speaking of the elect in general, then he is speaking of both Jews and Gentiles. That, however, doesn't really fit with "that they also," which implies one group. So, it would have to be the Gentiles.
 
Read the whole Bible.

Better yet, do a study on Theology Proper, Soteriology and Hamartiology.

I know many of the people on this forum do not like Theology or doctrine, because supposedly it is man;s interpretation.

However, isn't that exactly what you people do that are against these vital Biblical tools?

You condemn them as man made doctrines, yet interpret the Bible as you see fit.

See the hypocrisy in that?

We are discussing this.

Faith and belief are used interchangeably.

Faith vs. belief—what is the difference?​

Answer

On one hand, there is no difference between faith and belief. The two terms are often used interchangeably. The Gospel of John was written so that “you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name” (John 20:31). The Gospel of John does not even use the word faith, although the concept of faith is thoroughly woven into John. Throughout Scripture, there is no distinction between faith and belief.

On the other hand, in popular English usage, the word faith often has a deeper meaning. Belief often refers to an intellectual acceptance of facts. If you ask the average person on the street if he believes in Alexander the Great or Abraham Lincoln, he would probably interpret the question to mean, “Do you believe that such a person existed?” Most, no doubt, would answer in the affirmative. However, faith, in modern usage, has the added idea of trust and commitment.

Many people believe that Alexander the Great existed. When he was alive, many had faith in him as well, trusting him to protect them, lead them into battle, and expand the Greek Empire. However, it would be safe to assume that no one alive today is trusting him to do anything for them. They believe in his existence, but they do not have faith in him.

Most people believe it is important to eat healthy foods and exercise regularly; however, most people do not personally eat healthy food and exercise regularly. They believe that a certain set of facts is true, but they have not committed themselves to the implications of the facts. They have belief but not faith, in the modern sense.

Likewise, many people today believe a certain set of facts about God, and in some cases their facts may be completely orthodox. However, if they have never committed themselves to God, if they have not trusted Him, then they do not have faith or biblical belief in Him. Biblical faith (biblical belief) is never simply giving assent to a certain set of facts. Biblical faith is trust and commitment that result in a change of behavior. James 2:19 puts it this way: “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.” The demons believe that God exists, and they may even know more about God than people do, but they do not have faith in Him. Unfortunately, many people have the same kind of belief that the demons have, but that it is not sufficient for their salvation.

This concept can be illustrated another way: three people board a commercial airliner to travel to a distant city. The first is an engineer who designs and builds airplanes. He is also a pilot. He knows how everything works. Furthermore, he is a personal friend of the pilot who will be flying that afternoon, and he knows him to be very competent. He boards the plane with full confidence. The second person is just the average business traveler. He knows a little bit about airplanes but just doesn’t think about it too much. He takes his seat and starts reading a magazine. The third is deathly afraid of flying. He breaks out in a cold sweat. It takes all he can do not to turn and flee down the gangway. With much fear and trembling, he gets on the plane, sits down, and hopes he can fall asleep and not wake up until they land. So the question is, “who has more faith in the plane?” The answer is that they all have the same amount of faith. All of them have boarded the plane and committed their safety to the plane and the crew. They will only arrive at their destination if the plane arrives. If the plane goes down, they will go down, too. All the people who got on the plane were committing themselves to the plane—they believed (or had faith) in the plane. Those who stayed at the airport, even if they had complete confidence that the plane would arrive as scheduled, did not exercise faith in the plane. They did not commit themselves to it.

In summary, faith and belief are used interchangeably. However, the New Testament does recognize that people can have false faith or incomplete belief, which is inadequate. The difference is not between the two words but between the concepts of mental agreement and wholehearted commitment. In modern usage, belief often refers to mental agreement, and faith refers to wholehearted commitment. As long as that distinction is maintained, it doesn’t matter which words are used. However, we need to be careful not to import the modern usage back into specific New Testament passages. Gotquestions.org

God's salvation does not change, it is pretty straight forward.

You would do well to study Systematic Theology.


Again I said faith requires something to make it complete.

Do you understand the principle of faith, and a person must do in order for faith to be complete?


I’ll give you a hint, it’s found in this scripture…


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26
 
Well, you were responding to this statement: "Both jews and Gentiles are the elect."

You replied with:

"You are making generalizations with no know scripture or context.

Jews are the elect. They were elected to be the lineage of Christ.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10

Paul desired for the elect (Jews) to also obtain salvation which is in Christ Jesus."


By responding to "Both jews and Gentiles are the elect" with statements such as "Jews are the elect" and "the elect (Jews)," and providing a verse which sates "for the sake of the elect," your post strongly suggests that only the Jews are the elect and that 2 Tim. 2:10 supports that idea. If not, it is hard to know what the meaning of your post is, other than being guilty of the very thing you accuse the other of--"making generalizations with no know scripture or context."

So, where in that verse or the context of that verse, is Paul speaking of Jews?

If that verse is speaking of one group of people, that is, either Jews or Gentiles, then it is speaking of Gentiles. Although Paul did preach to the Jews, usually on the Sabbath, and other apostles preached to the Gentiles on occasion, Paul refers to himself as "an apostle to the Gentiles" (Rom 11:13) and that he "was appointed a preacher and and apostle . . . a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim 2:7). See also, Acts 9:15, 22:21, 26:17-18, Rom. 15:16, Gal. 1:15-16, 2:7-9, and Eph. 3:8.

But, also, look at the start of 2 Tim.:

2Ti 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God,
2Ti 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
2Ti 1:10 and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
2Ti 1:11 for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher,
2Ti 1:12 which is why I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that day what has been entrusted to me. (ESV)

And that forms part of the context for what he says in chapter 2:

2Ti 2:8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel,
2Ti 2:9 for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound!
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. (ESV)

To put all of that together then, Paul was appointed by God to be an apostle to the Gentiles and preach the gospel, for which he suffered greatly, including being imprisoned. There is nothing about the Jews only in 2 Tim 2:10, as you claim, but if Paul is speaking of the elect in general, then he is speaking of both Jews and Gentiles. That, however, doesn't really fit with "that they also," which implies one group. So, it would have to be the Gentiles.

Please answer my question from my previous post that I asked again at the bottom of this post.


The Jews are the elect; The people God chose for a purpose.

They were elected for a purpose. To be the people through whom Christ came.

For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:3-5


So now we have Paul using the term “elect” in a letter to Timothy.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10

Paul in this verse, is referring to the Jews as the elect, and expresses his desire that they also may obtain salvation.




If you don’t believe Paul is referring to the Jews, that they also may obtain salvation, then please explain why you believe the elect refers to another group of people that he desires to also obtain salvation?


Question—

If he desires the elect to also obtain salvation then who is the primary group that is not the elect that has obtained salvation?
 
Please answer my question from my previous post that I asked again at the bottom of this post.


The Jews are the elect; The people God chose for a purpose.

They were elected for a purpose. To be the people through whom Christ came.

For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:3-5


So now we have Paul using the term “elect” in a letter to Timothy.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10

Paul in this verse, is referring to the Jews as the elect, and expresses his desire that they also may obtain salvation.




If you don’t believe Paul is referring to the Jews, that they also may obtain salvation, then please explain why you believe the elect refers to another group of people that he desires to also obtain salvation?


Question—

If he desires the elect to also obtain salvation then who is the primary group that is not the elect that has obtained salvation?
You're not reading my posts in their entirety, as I already answered it:

"If that verse is speaking of one group of people, that is, either Jews or Gentiles, then it is speaking of Gentiles."

And,

"There is nothing about the Jews only in 2 Tim 2:10, as you claim, but if Paul is speaking of the elect in general, then he is speaking of both Jews and Gentiles. That, however, doesn't really fit with "that they also," which implies one group. So, it would have to be the Gentiles."
 
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