Does man have free will to choose salvation?

[JLB]

You're not reading my posts in their entirety, as I already answered it:

"If that verse is speaking of one group of people, that is, either Jews or Gentiles, then it is speaking of Gentiles."

And,

"There is nothing about the Jews only in 2 Tim 2:10, as you claim, but if Paul is speaking of the elect in general, then he is speaking of both Jews and Gentiles. That, however, doesn't really fit with "that they also," which implies one group. So, it would have to be the Gentiles."

You seem to be ignoring the word “also”.

• If he desires the elect to also obtain salvation, then plainly salvation isn’t automatic to the elect.

• If he desires the elect to also obtain salvation, then plainly the elect refers to something other than elected for salvation.

• If he desires the elect to also obtain salvation then who is the primary group that is not the elect that has obtained salvation? Obviously the primary group of those saved has salvation while the elect does not.

It’s clear that Paul is using the term elect to refer to the Jews, His countrymen after the flesh, not people who are saved.


For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
Romans 9:3-11




JLB

 

[electedbyHim]

Please answer my question from my previous post that I asked again at the bottom of this post.


The Jews are the elect; The people God chose for a purpose.

They were elected for a purpose. To be the people through whom Christ came.

For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:3-5


So now we have Paul using the term “elect” in a letter to Timothy.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10

Paul in this verse, is referring to the Jews as the elect, and expresses his desire that they also may obtain salvation.




If you don’t believe Paul is referring to the Jews, that they also may obtain salvation, then please explain why you believe the elect refers to another group of people that he desires to also obtain salvation?


Question—

If he desires the elect to also obtain salvation then who is the primary group that is not the elect that has obtained salvation?

ELECTION OF GRACE—The Scripture speaks (1) of the election of individuals to office or to honour and privilege, e.g., Abraham, Jacob, Saul, David, Solomon, were all chosen by God for the positions they held; so also were the apostles. (2) There is also an election of nations to special privileges, e.g., the Hebrews (Deut. 7:6; Rom. 9:4). (3) But in addition there is an election of individuals to eternal life (2 Thess. 2:13; Eph. 1:4; 1 Pet. 1:2; John 13:18).
The ground of this election to salvation is the good pleasure of God (Eph. 1:5, 11; Matt. 11:25, 26; John 15:16, 19). God claims the right so to do (Rom. 9:16, 21).
It is not conditioned on faith or repentance, but is of sovereign grace (Rom. 11:4–6; Eph. 1:3–6). All that pertain to salvation, the means (Eph. 2:8; 2 Thess. 2:13) as well as the end, are of God (Acts 5:31; 2 Tim. 2:25; 1 Cor. 1:30; Eph. 2:5, 10). Faith and repentance and all other graces are the exercises of a regenerated soul; and regeneration is God’s work, a “new creature.”
Men are elected “to salvation,” “to the adoption of sons,” “to be holy and without blame before him in love” (2 Thess. 2:13; Gal. 4:4, 5; Eph. 1:4). The ultimate end of election is the praise of God’s grace (Eph. 1:6, 12). (See PREDESTINATION.)


M. G. Easton, Illustrated Bible Dictionary and Treasury of Biblical History, Biography, Geography, Doctrine, and Literature (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1893), 218–219.

 

[JLB]

ELECTION OF GRACE—The Scripture speaks (1) of the election of individuals to office or to honour and privilege, e.g., Abraham, Jacob, Saul, David, Solomon, were all chosen by God for the positions they held; so also were the apostles. (2) There is also an election of nations to special privileges, e.g., the Hebrews (Deut. 7:6; Rom. 9:4). (3) But in addition there is an election of individuals to eternal life (2 Thess. 2:13; Eph. 1:4; 1 Pet. 1:2; John 13:18).
The ground of this election to salvation is the good pleasure of God (Eph. 1:5, 11; Matt. 11:25, 26; John 15:16, 19). God claims the right so to do (Rom. 9:16, 21).
It is not conditioned on faith or repentance, but is of sovereign grace (Rom. 11:4–6; Eph. 1:3–6). All that pertain to salvation, the means (Eph. 2:8; 2 Thess. 2:13) as well as the end, are of God (Acts 5:31; 2 Tim. 2:25; 1 Cor. 1:30; Eph. 2:5, 10). Faith and repentance and all other graces are the exercises of a regenerated soul; and regeneration is God’s work, a “new creature.”
Men are elected “to salvation,” “to the adoption of sons,” “to be holy and without blame before him in love” (2 Thess. 2:13; Gal. 4:4, 5; Eph. 1:4). The ultimate end of election is the praise of God’s grace (Eph. 1:6, 12). (See PREDESTINATION.)


M. G. Easton, Illustrated Bible Dictionary and Treasury of Biblical History, Biography, Geography, Doctrine, and Literature (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1893), 218–219.

Thanks for the commentary.

 

[Free]

You seem to be ignoring the word “also”.

• If he desires the elect to also obtain salvation, then plainly salvation isn’t automatic to the elect.

• If he desires the elect to also obtain salvation, then plainly the elect refers to something other than elected for salvation.

• If he desires the elect to also obtain salvation then who is the primary group that is not the elect that has obtained salvation? Obviously the primary group of those saved has salvation while the elect does not.

It’s clear that Paul is using the term elect to refer to the Jews, His countrymen after the flesh, not people who are saved.


For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
Romans 9:3-11




JLB

No, I mentioned it in my post, even in the part you quoted.

 

[electedbyHim]

Thanks for the commentary.

Its the definition of the elect.

Any human that has been saved by God is His elect.

This is Biblical.

There are no others who will be saved.

 

[Free]

It’s clear that Paul is using the term elect to refer to the Jews, His countrymen after the flesh, not people who are saved.


For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
Romans 9:3-11

I should have also pointed out that in this context, Paul is using "election" to refer to all whom God has chosen, Jew and Gentile.

Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. (ESV)

Then:

Rom 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh.
Rom 9:4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.
Rom 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
Rom 9:7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”
Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
Rom 9:9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.”
Rom 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— (ESV)

The fact is that Paul uses election to speak of both Jews and Gentiles, and there is nothing in 2 Tim. 2:10 to suggest that Paul is speaking about Jews.

More importantly, I'll also add a point of correction. The "also" in 2 Tim. 2:10 could very well, and most likely does, refer to all the elect, both Jews and Gentiles. Notice that Paul says, "Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory." He is saying that the "they also" are all the elect, who being so, are like himself. He clearly has obtained "the salvation that is in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 1:1, 8-12) and he wants the rest of the elect, both Jews and Gentiles, to obtain it as well. That also fits the context.

Having said that, if he is referring to one group, it would be the Gentiles, to whom he was appointed as an apostle.

 

[JLB]

1. No, I mentioned it in my post, even in the part you quoted.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10

• Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation

Please consider these three points.

1. If he desires the elect to also obtain salvation, then plainly salvation isn’t automatic to the elect.

2. If he desires the elect to also obtain salvation, then plainly the elect refers to something other than elected for salvation.​

3. If he desires the elect to also obtain salvation then who is the primary group that is not the elect that has obtained salvation? Obviously the primary group of those saved has salvation while the elect does not.​

 

[JLB]

Its the definition of the elect.

Any human that has been saved by God is His elect.

This is Biblical.

There are no others who will be saved.

Those who believe will be saved.

Those who do not believe will be condemned.


“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

 

[electedbyHim]

Those who believe will be saved.

Those who do not believe will be condemned.


“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

All thr Lord's elect will be saved.

Only to groups of people in the Bible, the elect and the reprobate.

 

[JLB]

All thr Lord's elect will be saved.

Only to groups of people in the Bible, the elect and the reprobate.

More commentary?

Here’s the truth.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18


Those who believe will be saved.

 

[electedbyHim]

More commentary?

Here’s the truth.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18


Those who believe will be saved.

My words are commentary?

I always cite my commentaries.

Yes, only the elect will believe and be saved.

That is all the work of God.

 

[Free]

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10

• Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation

Please consider these three points.

1. If he desires the elect to also obtain salvation, then plainly salvation isn’t automatic to the elect.

Yes, of course.

2. If he desires the elect to also obtain salvation, then plainly the elect refers to something other than elected for salvation.​

No. This refutes your previous point.

3. If he desires the elect to also obtain salvation then who is the primary group that is not the elect that has obtained salvation? Obviously the primary group of those saved has salvation while the elect does not.​

There is nothing in what Paul says that neccesitates a “primary group that is not the elect that has obtained salvation.”

Paul is clearly talking about the elect who are not yet saved.

 

[brightfame52]

Those who believe will be saved.

Those who do not believe will be condemned.


“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

Only the saved can and will believe, the condemned will not and cannot believe, since they are condemned by the law of God.

 

[brightfame52]

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10

• Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation

Please consider these three points.

1. If he desires the elect to also obtain salvation, then plainly salvation isn’t automatic to the elect.

2. If he desires the elect to also obtain salvation, then plainly the elect refers to something other than elected for salvation.​

3. If he desires the elect to also obtain salvation then who is the primary group that is not the elect that has obtained salvation? Obviously the primary group of those saved has salvation while the elect does not.​

Salvation has always been limited to Gods Elect, Yea even the Eternal Salvation in Christ Jesus with Eternal Glory. 2 Tim 2:10

Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

This compliments the OT annoucement Isa 46:13

I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

Salvation is solely for Israel, Gods Elect from out of the jews and Gentiles.

 

[Ritajanice]

God gave me the supernatural faith to believe in my heart/ spirit, I don’t understand free will, not saying they don’t have free will, how can one believe, without being Born Of The Spirit, I’ve yet to wrap my head around that one.

Maybe we have different levels of faith, quite a few say, that only God elects those that he chooses to birth in the spirit are saved from eternal damnation, I’m on the fence regarding that.

 

[Ritajanice]

Any human that has been saved by God is His elect

Really, can you show me scripture that says that?..

 

[Ritajanice]

Those who believe will be saved.

Can you believe without God’s seed His Holy Spirit.?

Witnessing that truth to our heart, when we have been birthed in the spirit?

I can’t get my head around believing unless one has been Born Again.

 

[Fastfredy0]

...

 

[brightfame52]

JLB

You seem to be ignoring the word “also”.

That means they are also of the elect/Sheep, He means the Gentile elect and unconverted elect jews also Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Paul was sent to the specifically 2 Tim 1:11

Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

2 Tim 4:17

Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

2 Tim 2:10 (KJB)Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Here is Paul’s missionary heart. He had suffered many things over the years of his ministry and he was happy to endure these hardships because he did it for the elect of God. There were those who have become saved already but there were many elect who were not saved yet and had to hear the true Gospel and when it was their time, they would become saved. It is the same in our day, that there are still elect in the world who have not become saved yet and the Gospel must get to them so they may hear and God will grant them salvation at the appointed time. This should be the same mindset of every Christian, that they are willing to suffer hardship to be able to get the Gospel to those elect who have not come into the kingdom yet. Since only God knows who the elect are, it is our responsibility to send forth the Gospel to the entire world. (Mat 22:14 KJV) For many are called, but few are chosen. This is why a verse like Matthew 22:14 takes on new meaning when we know that when there is a Gospel call, many may be under the hearing of the Gospel but out of that many will be the few who are the chosen or the elect of God. Paul knew the word of God can never be bound and that is why he had no qualms about going through what he did because everything he suffered worked out for the furtherance of the Gospel. (Phil 1:12 KJV) But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel;

2 Timothy 2:6-10

Acts 28:28

Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Rom 9 24

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[electedbyHim]

Really, can you show me scripture that says that?..

Ill do better.

Simply put, the “elect of God” are those whom God has predestined to salvation. They are called the “elect” because that word denotes “determining beforehand,” “ordaining,” “deciding ahead of time.” Every four years in the U.S., we “elect” a President—i.e., we choose who will serve in that office. The same goes for God and those who will be saved; God chooses those who will be saved. These are the elect of God.

As it stands, the concept of God electing those who will be saved (predestination) isn’t controversial. It is a biblical truth (John 6:44, Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-5). What is controversial is how and in what manner God chooses those who will be saved. Throughout church history, there have been two main views on the doctrine of election. One view, which we will call the prescient or foreknowledge view, teaches that God, through His omniscience, knows those who will in the course of time choose of their own free will to place their faith and trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation. On the basis of this divine foreknowledge, God elects these individuals “before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4).

The second main view is the Augustinian view, which essentially teaches that God not only divinely elects those who will have faith in Jesus Christ, but also divinely elects to grant to these individuals the faith to believe in Christ. In other words, God’s election unto salvation is not based on a foreknowledge of an individual’s faith, but is based on the free, sovereign grace of Almighty God.

The difference boils down to this: who has the ultimate choice in salvation—God or man? In the first view (the prescient view), man has control; his free will is sovereign and becomes the determining factor in God’s election. God can provide the way of salvation through Jesus Christ, but man must choose Christ for himself in order to make salvation real. Ultimately, this view diminishes the biblical understanding of God's sovereignty. This view puts the Creator's provision of salvation at the mercy of the creature; if God wants people in heaven, He has to hope that man will freely choose His way of salvation. In reality, the prescient view of election is no view of election at all, because God is not really choosing—He is only confirming. It is man who is the ultimate chooser.

In the Augustinian view, God has control; He is the one who, of His own sovereign will, freely chooses those whom He will save. He not only elects those whom He will save, but He actually accomplishes their salvation. Rather than simply make salvation possible, God chooses those whom He will save and then saves them. This view puts God in His proper place as Creator and Sovereign.

The Augustinian view is not without problems of its own. Critics have claimed that this view robs man of his free will. If God chooses those who will be saved, then what difference does it make for man to believe? Why preach the gospel? Furthermore, if God elects according to His sovereign will, then how can we be responsible for our actions? These are all good and fair questions that need to be answered. A good passage to answer these questions is Romans 9, the most in-depth passage dealing with God’s sovereignty in election.

The context of the passage flows from Romans 8, which ends with a great climax of praise: “For I am convinced that... [nothing] in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38-39). This leads Paul to consider how a Jew might respond to that statement. While Jesus came to the lost children of Israel and while the early church was largely Jewish in makeup, the gospel was spreading among the Gentiles much faster than among the Jews. In fact, most Jews saw the gospel as a stumbling block (1 Corinthians 1:23) and rejected Jesus. This would lead the average Jew to wonder if God’s plan of election has failed, since most Jews reject the message of the gospel.

Throughout Romans 9, Paul systematically shows that God’s sovereign election has been in force from the very beginning. He begins with a crucial statement: “For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel” (Romans 9:6). This means that not all people of ethnic Israel (that is, those descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) belong to true Israel (the elect of God). Reviewing the history of Israel, Paul shows that God chose Isaac over Ishmael and Jacob over Esau. Just in case anyone thinks that God was choosing these individuals based on the faith or good works they would do in the future, he adds, “Though they [Jacob and Esau] were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad – in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls” (Romans 9:11).

At this point, one might be tempted to accuse God of acting unjustly. Paul anticipates this accusation in v. 14, stating plainly that God is not unjust in any way. “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion” (Romans 9:15). God is sovereign over His creation. He is free to choose those whom He will choose, and He is free to pass by those whom He will pass by. The creature has no right to accuse the Creator of being unjust. The very thought that the creature can stand in judgment of the Creator is absurd to Paul, and it should be so to every Christian, as well. The balance of Romans 9 substantiates this point.

Ephesians 1:5 tells us that God “predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.” According to this verse, the basis of our being predestined is not something that we do or will do, but is based solely on God. This predetermination is based on His sovereignty, unchanging character (Malachi 3:6), foreknowledge (Romans 8:29, 11:2), love (Ephesians 1:4-5), and plan and pleasure (Ephesians 1:5). God’s desire is that all would be saved and come to repentance (1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9). He offers salvation to everyone (Titus 2:11) and has made Himself plain to everyone so that everyone is without excuse (Romans 1:19-20).

Both predestination and personal responsibility are true—God is completely in control, and humanity makes choices and is completely accountable for those choices. The Bible does not present these as irreconcilable truths (as theological traditions sometimes do). We learn that, if God elected those He foreknew, He both knows His creation before it exists and He determines important things about His creation. If God is great enough to be the Creator of all, then He is not stumped by the mutual existence of His sovereignty and human volition, choice, and responsibility.
Gotquestions.org