Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[Dorothy Mae]

If they are wicked, they are wicked.

Who were the wise and learned Jesus referred to?
Wicked men of Chorazin and Capernaum. (Matt 11:21-23)

You refuse the teaching of scripture outright. Pretty surprising.

Matthew 11:
25At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26Yes, Father, for this was well-pleasing in Your sight.

27All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.

These things are not those cities but the ways of God, or in short, the Father. The Son CHOOSES those people he reveals the Father to. This is not being saved which is merely an experience of receiving forgiveness if it is real (asking homeless Jesus to live in you is not salvation although it might be sufficient in some.)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I guess you have a different definition of "want" than I do.
There is nothing "merely" about one's desire for righteousness.

Jesus did not use "want." It would be better to have his definition. "Hunger and thirst" are not merely "wanting." And you did not even mention righteousness. You are moving the goal posts.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You seem to be saying two different things at the same time in the above. You said that it is up to the person to repent, but then said it is a question of whether Jesus will accept us. Those points are mutually exclusive: it must be one or the other but not both. If God is calling as you say, then He can't be calling those who are unable to hear His call,

You forget that we make choices in time. These are not mutually exclusive. In times back in the Church, people seeking God would have to really seek him, not merely repeat a prayer. So they prayed and mourned until they got a break through and were gloriously saved. There was even a "mourners bench" in some churches for this purpose. The power of the person believing or not, repenting or not, choosing or refusing or not is what you are missing. Your position seems to think it is all one-sided and men are passively saved. That is not the case.

Jesus explained the possible scenarios as follows. Some receive the Word (all are able to hear the call, not one is unable as you describe) and the Devil takes away the word. Some receive the Word, believe and starts to grow. How that changes with time is also described but that's another discussion. So ALL are able to hear his call.

so not all can repent, and the question remains: based upon your belief (not mine) what happens to those who can't hear, can't choose, and can't repent?
Now, as you know, I fundamentally and vehemently disagree with your underlying assumptions regarding how salvation transpires.

That is a pity because as I described it is exactly what it is described as in the Bible. People hear the word, feel conviction, and respond in different ways. That is what is there. I am sorry you reject it.

With one way (my way) it is only dependent upon God's choice, His divine prerogative, His good pleasure and His power to bring His will to fruition unto those who in no wise deserve it; the other way (your way)it is dependent upon dumb luck to be in an environment where the gospel is preached and of having the intelligence to comprehend what one is heard should they even be able to hear it - basically leaving salvation up to random chance. What could be more unfair than that? Nevertheless, with selection, God also gives spiritual ears to hear things spiritual. Without spiritual ears, they will never be able to comprehend the gospel no matter how many times they hear it with physical ears.

So in your "one way, that is your way" position, God cruelly selects some for Hell and refuses to give them any help, call them or anything at all. Doomed to hell before being born. What could be more unfair than that? (What is worse is that you and many other people who think they are saved were not actually predestined for Heaven but are deceiving yourselves, but no calvinist wants to entertain that possiblity.)

 

[rogerg]

Folks can want forgiveness for their sins without knowing One can forgive them.
Myself, a man unknowledgeable of the real church, just wanted to quit hurting myself and others with my behaviors.
God knows the hearts of men, and will provide for their deliverance.

Left to its own, the human heart will/can never seek God in a way that isn't based upon works.
If you or if anyone has truly come to Christ (according to the Bible definition/demonstration of Christ as Saviour), it can only be because God had first saved you and drew you to Him. Should we believe that it is of ourselves, then by definition, we haven't been because it is Christ who is the Saviour, we are not.

[Jer 17:9 KJV]
9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Rom 3:11-12, 17-18, 20 KJV]
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. ...
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. ...
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

[1Co 2:14 KJV]
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Left to its own, the human heart will/can never seek God in a way that isn't based upon works.
If you or if anyone has truly come to Christ (according to the Bible definition/demonstration of Christ as Saviour), it can only be because God had first saved you and drew you to Him. Should we believe that it is of ourselves, then by definition, we haven't been because it is Christ who is the Saviour, we are not.

[Jer 17:9 KJV]
9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Rom 3:11-12, 17-18, 20 KJV]
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. ...
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. ...
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

[1Co 2:14 KJV]
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Makes one wonder why Jesus said, "seek and you shall find." I guess he had not heard of this theology.

 

[rogerg]

You forget that we make choices in time. These are not mutually exclusive. In times back in the Church, people seeking God would have to really seek him, not merely repeat a prayer. So they prayed and mourned until they got a break through and were gloriously saved. There was even a "mourners bench" in some churches for this purpose. The power of the person believing or not, repenting or not, choosing or refusing or not is what you are missing. Your position seems to think it is all one-sided and men are passively saved. That is not the case.

If I understand you correctly, everyone throughout time who becomes saved, becomes saved in exactly the same
manner: that God had chosen them for salvation solely upon His divine prerogative and good pleasure. Anything else would be a work and we cannot be saved by our works. I'll post the same verses to you that I just posted to Hopeful (above)

[Jer 17:9 KJV]
9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Rom 3:11-12, 17-18, 20 KJV]
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. ...
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. ...
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

[1Co 2:14 KJV]
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If I understand you correctly, everyone throughout time who becomes saved, becomes saved in exactly the same
manner: that God had chosen them for salvation solely upon His divine prerogative and good pleasure. Anything else would be a work and we cannot be saved by our works. I'll post the same verses to you that I just posted to Hopeful (above)

Thanks for your kindness in word, but that is not what I said, not everyone who becomes saved becomes saved in exactly the same manner except that repentance of sin and receiving forgiveness is a necessary part. I mean, how can one be saved from sin if one refuses to admits one sinned and NEEDS to be forgiven and saved? Otherwise the stories are different for a variety of reasons. It is complex.

[Jer 17:9 KJV]
9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

God can know it and the man God shows the heart to.

[Rom 3:11-12, 17-18, 20 KJV]
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

David sought the Lord. The people sought the Lord. I can give you scripture after scripture where people sought the Lord. Your scripture is a reference to a particular time in Israel. Jesus told us to seek God. Why if no one does? Now what?

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. ...

The centurion in the Bible is described as doing good. the Bible repeatedly speaks of doing good. Why is no one ever does any good any where in his/her life. I mean, do you really think that no one in the whole world ever does any good ever???

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

You think this describes everyone in the whole world? Really? I recall the peace movement. They knew peace and in droves.

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. ...

Would you like scriptures that discuss who had the fear of God before their eyes?

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

OK, the law taught us sin.

[1Co 2:14 KJV]
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Christians also do not receive the things of the Spirit of God and call them foolishness. You cannot imagine how many times Christians mock the truth when it does not suit their theology. They are foolishness to them. Discernment is a rare commodity in the church today.

 

[Edward]

Left to its own, the human heart will/can never seek God in a way that isn't based upon works.
If you or if anyone has truly come to Christ (according to the Bible definition/demonstration of Christ as Saviour), it can only be because God had first saved you and drew you to Him. Should we believe that it is of ourselves, then by definition, we haven't been because it is Christ who is the Saviour, we are not.

It does say that. But is that a proper understanding of it?
No man can come unto God unless God draws him to Himself, right? and the heart of man is deceietfully wicked, agreed.

But before we get too far, let's consider exactly what the scripture says. I've noticed in scripture that God likes to be very precise in His words and terms that He speaks.

Romans 3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. .../

"That seeketh after" is a Greek phrase (G1567), ekzēteō

Romans 3 :: King James Version (KJV)

Romans 3 - What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision?

www.blueletterbible.org

So the premise is that no man would ever seek God on his own. As if, we are unable to even call out to God without God moving first. Right?

So man never has gone to church of his own volition? You are unable to watch a gospel teaching video instead of the Simpsons reruns on your own initiative?

Something about that does not ring true to me. Nevertheless, back to the phrase, that seeketh after...The Strongs Concordance has a very noticable emphasis on Diligently searching for or seeking.

So let us say for clarification, there is none that diligently seeketh after God.

That throws a distinctly different light on this issue. Where is our example of diligent servants in scripture? Easy! Enoch, Elijah, Moses, Abraham! All those guys. And every single one of them made mistakes! And remember, the author of the Bible, (God) is who's definition of diligence is to be used because it was His thought that went on the paper.

Where's the line between lukewarm and diligent servant? Profitable/unprofitable servant? God decides. Apparently, even Elijah and the Patriarchs weren't diligent enough for Him to not be able to say that (not even one!).

And why? Because, the Kingdom of God and our Lord's dwelling placeis in the unseen realm, and all we get to see is what is in the natural realm. So that makes it hard to be diligent. This world is so full of distractions! Everything is a distraction. And the Lord said come out of her my people. So...I guess we should ignore the world sell all possessions and go to live in a cave away from the world to see only the Lord. That's a pretty tall order and no one has done it yet except Jesus. I gotta go to work, bills are due. I'm hungry da da da. We have to live here so it's nigh impossible to be diligent.

Scripture says the way we were created, that we were all given the measure of faith and that we were created in God's own image. So no matter how far away we fall from God, we still carry the God DNA in our being.

The DNA which can cause a man who has never heard the Gospel to cry out unto Him, (If there is a God save me I am about to die!) when they are facng death. Apparently that happens a lot and why they say that, there are no atheists in foxholes!

It must be some sort of DNA safety valve thingy that God put in us so that we can cry out to Him when we are in dire circumstances. Because I sure have heard plenty of testimonies from different people that this happened to, they was no christian, drug addicts and stuff, all sorts of sub cultureisms (lol).

God doesn't leave loose ends! It is written that all will be without excuse. That's a fairly large scripture there, Brother! (Romans 1:20)

 

[rogerg]

except that repentance of sin and receiving forgiveness is a necessary part. I mean, how can one be saved from sin if one refuses to admits one sinned and NEEDS to be forgiven and saved? Otherwise the stories are different for a variety of reasons. It is complex.

Disagree. Anything that a person may try to do, to include repentance and their receiving of forgiveness for salvation, is a work and as such is contrary to Christ as Saviour. We are saved by God's grace in spite of what we are, not because of what we are. Look and Saul/Paul for an example of that. It is solely by and through God's mercy alone that anyone becomes saved.

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[brightfame52]

roger

Left to its own, the human heart will/can never seek God in a way that isn't based upon works.

Correct which is ignorance and idolatry, just like the jews displayed Rom 10:2-3

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

All men by nature, because they dont and cant seek the True God, default to going about to establish their own righteousness, being ignorant of the True Gods way of righteousness. This is all of us by nature.

If you or if anyone has truly come to Christ (according to the Bible definition/demonstration of Christ as Saviour), it can only be because God had first saved you and drew you to Him. Should we believe that it is of ourselves, then by definition, we haven't been because it is Christ who is the Saviour, we are not.

Very well said !

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Look, man sinned in Adam and became corrupted from his original righteousness, now being dead in sin, he needs to be born again in order to seek God.

The scripture I cited agrees perfectly with the scripture you cited when interpreted properly. It doesn't agree the way you're interpreting it.
To be angry at a human who won't repent is understandable. To be angry at a human who can't repent is maniacal.

 

[brightfame52]

The scripture I cited agrees perfectly with the scripture you cited when interpreted properly. It doesn't agree the way you're interpreting it.
To be angry at a human who won't repent is understandable. To be angry at a human who can't repent is maniacal.

I dont understand a word you said. Man naturally doesnt seek after God, nor understand ! Rom 3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Remember, Adam and Eve fell into sin. That changed everything.

Eph_2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature (physis) children of wrath, just as the others.

Example of the word:
Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature (physis);

I understand the knowledge if good and evil changed everything, but you're citing passages where people knew the Lord to begin with, but chose not to honor him, darkening their hearts,

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Rom.1:21

The thoughts of mens hearts became "only evil continually" over time.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I dont understand a word you said. Man naturally doesnt seek after God, nor understand ! Rom 3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Sit with any child for an hour. Explain that God exists. When you're done, that child will believe that God exists.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

! Rom 3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Look at vs.10. He's speaking of Jews and gentiles, not every individual on Earth.

 

[Hopeful]

You refuse the teaching of scripture outright. Pretty surprising.

Matthew 11:
25At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26Yes, Father, for this was well-pleasing in Your sight.

27All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.

These things are not those cities but the ways of God, or in short, the Father. The Son CHOOSES those people he reveals the Father to. This is not being saved which is merely an experience of receiving forgiveness if it is real (asking homeless Jesus to live in you is not salvation although it might be sufficient in some.)

You are starting to blend different scriptures and contexts.

 

[Hopeful]

Jesus did not use "want." It would be better to have his definition. "Hunger and thirst" are not merely "wanting." And you did not even mention righteousness. You are moving the goal posts.

Ever heard of the word "synonym"?

 

[Hopeful]

Left to its own, the human heart will/can never seek God in a way that isn't based upon works.
If you or if anyone has truly come to Christ (according to the Bible definition/demonstration of Christ as Saviour), it can only be because God had first saved you and drew you to Him. Should we believe that it is of ourselves, then by definition, we haven't been because it is Christ who is the Saviour, we are not.

[Jer 17:9 KJV]
9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Rom 3:11-12, 17-18, 20 KJV]
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. ...
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. ...
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

[1Co 2:14 KJV]
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

We disagree.
Context seems not to be a factor of your findings.

 

[Hopeful]

Christians also do not receive the things of the Spirit of God and call them foolishness. You cannot imagine how many times Christians mock the truth when it does not suit their theology. They are foolishness to them. Discernment is a rare commodity in the church today.

Why do you call them "Christians"?

 

[Hopeful]

Disagree. Anything that a person may try to do, to include repentance and their receiving of forgiveness for salvation, is a work and as such is contrary to Christ as Saviour. We are saved by God's grace in spite of what we are, not because of what we are. Look and Saul/Paul for an example of that. It is solely by and through God's mercy alone that anyone becomes saved.

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

You have the wrong idea about "works".
Paul refuted works for salvation, but the only works he ever referred to were the works of the Law...ie, circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, tithing, etc.
Don't deny yourself hearing, believing, repentance from sin, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and enduring faithfully to the end because you were mistaught that they are not allowed.
That notion is of the devil, who doesn't want men to hear, believe, repent, get baptized, or endure.