Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[rogerg]

Please show me the exact quote, thats on you friend

I did. Guess you missed it. Okay, here it is again. The fruit had to be BOTH "pleasant to the sight" AND "good for food" for it to have been from God. Either criterion not satisfied, then the tree could not have been from God. Look at it this
way brightfame52, if all of the trees in the garden were from God, then there would have been no need for God to have
stated the below. Because they weren't all made by Him, and for our edification, God chose to make that distinction clear - as a matter of fact, were that not the case, He couldn't have correctly stated it at all.

[Gen 2:9 KJV] 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

brightfame52, do we really need to iterate through all this again? At this point, it doesn't seem like a productive
use of our time since we're saying the same thing over and over, not to mention that it is taking longer and longer
to formulate each reply. I say, we know what each other's thoughts on this, so what's the point?

 

[brightfame52]

roger

As previously posted, the verse that substantiates it is the one that tells us that God only planted into the garden trees
good for food - the requirement applied to all of the trees in the garden of Eden: pleasant to look at but not good for food: definitely not from God - a tree that brought death obviously was not good for food.

I have to take that for a no, no specific verse stating that in black and white. You are not living up to the standard you slammed on me roger.

[Gen 2:8-9 KJV]
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

I agree with this roger

Yes, now, but it originated from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Satan by my reckoning) in the garden.

Okay by your recokening, nothing stated clearly in black and white. So now you see why you shouldnt slam people with that other. You slam folk, then turn slap around and do the very
same thing, no disrepect but it reminds me of Paul telling the jews here Rom 2:1

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

That is where false teaches have gotten it from: Satan.

I believe satan inspiries false teachers, he has his ministers, Paul mentioned that 2 Cor 11:13-15
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

[GodsGrace]

roger



I have to take that for a no, no specific verse stating that in black and white. You are not living up to the standard you slammed on me roger.



I agree with this roger



Okay by your recokening, nothing stated clearly in black and white. So now you see why you shouldnt slam people with that other. You slam folk, then turn slap around and do the very
same thing, no disrepect but it reminds me of Paul telling the jews here Rom 2:1

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.



I believe satan inspiries false teachers, he has his ministers, Paul mentioned that 2 Cor 11:13-15
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

rogerg gave you Genesis 2:9 and even explained it to you.

What he had stated is 100% correct.
Because it does not fit your view of God and the accepted Christian paradigm is rather unfortunate.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

It is that, yes, all of the books were written after the fall, but parts of what were written were pertaining to, and describing, before the fall, though written after. That part of them, the part pertaining to before the fall, describe (for lack of a better phrase) a reality completely apart from the reality that existed afterwards, so, an assessment of the before, based upon the after, I believe inappropriate.

Unnecessary complication of matters, the bible is a unfolding of the Eternal Purpose of God grounded in Jesus Christ. All scripture, the law [the first 5 books], the Prophets, the Psalms all was about Jesus Christ Lk 24:27,44

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

I think your stand here is kinda cultish, not saying you are of a cult, because the things that occurred before the fall, were simply before the fall, and afterwards, Salvation history went forward looking for Christ to come, the seed of the woman !

The worlds of the before and after, were almost like, if not exactly like, two entirely different worlds, with the only carry-over between them being God, Adam, Eve, and the law of sin and death. So, should we read the Bible using the post-fall as a basis to superimpose its laws and revelations upon the pre-fall in perceiving the transition as a continuum instead of an end and a beginning, I think that we, for the most part, would be comparing apples to oranges.

Again unnecessary complication, the world existed before the fall , man being in innocence, after the fall, sin and death reigned Rom 5:17,21

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


Notice, it was by one mans offence death reigned, not one devils offence

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

And sins entering into world was Gods design and purpose, so that His greater Purpose through Christ would reign, that of Grace.

Hope that makes sense -I know - it has a fog level of 99% but the best I could do.

No it doesnt make sense if you dont mind me being brutally honest. You seem to be reading more into scripture than what you are extracting out of it or vice versa my friend.

 

[brightfame52]

trying to understand how "found in him" is just an "expression" since God Himself wrote it but am coming up blank.

Well you know God already knew it was in him correct ? After all God created him, do you believe that ?

 

[GodsGrace]

roger



Unnecessary complication of matters, the bible is a unfolding of the Eternal Purpose of God grounded in Jesus Christ. All scripture, the law [the first 5 books], the Prophets, the Psalms all was about Jesus Christ Lk 24:27,44

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

I think your stand here is kinda cultish, not saying you are of a cult, because the things that occurred before the fall, were simply before the fall, and afterwards, Salvation history went forward looking for Christ to come, the seed of the woman !


Again unnecessary complication, the world existed before the fall , man being in innocence, after the fall, sin and death reigned Rom 5:17,21

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


Notice, it was by one mans offence death reigned, not one devils offence

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

And sins entering into world was Gods design and purpose, so that His greater Purpose through Christ would reign, that of Grace.



No it doesnt make sense if you dont mind me being brutally honest. You seem to be reading more into scripture than what you are extracting out of it or vice versa my friend.

God PLANNED to make man sin...

So His PLAN of killing a part of Himself, the Word become flesh,

Could be completed.


Read that over a few times and explain how it makes any sense.

 

[GodsGrace]

roger



Roger I believe all the books of the bible were written after the fall, dont see your point there. Yes things changed after the fall, still dont see your point. I dont think mans will or anyones will has ever been free from Gods Sovereign will of purpose. Also adams will wasnt free not to sin and bring sin into the world, he, eve, the serpent, all acted in concert to fulfill Gods purpose roger, you dont believe that ?

It was found in him is just an expression, God knew what was in satan friend, He created him for His purpose !

If God created satan for evil purposes,
Then God is not all good and in Him there is no evil.
As John stated.
As Psalm 5:4 states.
And many other verses I could post.

So are you saying that the bible is full of lies?

 

[Randy]

God PLANNED to make man sin...

So His PLAN of killing a part of Himself, the Word become flesh,

Could be completed.


Read that over a few times and explain how it makes any sense.

God did not "make" man sin. He knew man was "capable" of sinning. Because no God will be formed after Him. And only God is incapable of sinning. And therefore had plans of redemption for He could see with His eyes they would sin in their weakness.

When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Death entered the world through Adam and Eve's sin. I believe the tempter is satan and his angels.

The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
18 Jesus replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

 

[GodsGrace]

God did not "make" man sin. He knew man was "capable" of sinning. Because no God will be formed after Him. And only God is incapable of sinning. And therefore had plans of redemption for He could see with His eyes they would sin in their weakness.

When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Death entered the world through Adam and Eve's sin. I believe the tempter is satan and his angels.

The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
18 Jesus replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

Agreed.

I would like to understand from brightfame52 exactly how he would explain his theology...
Since it makes no common sense to me.

But, alas, he fears answering me.
Or he just likes to speak to very special persons,,,
Or...
Who knows.

 

[brightfame52]

randy

God did not "make" man sin.

Yet He made him so he would sin !

He knew man was "capable" of sinning.

Of course, because He made man that way, adam must sin for a greater purpose centered in Christ Jesus, a redemptive purpose.

 

[GodsGrace]

1) book of life
2) Lamb's book of life

[Rev 20:12 KJV]
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[Rev 3:5 KJV] 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
[Rev 21:27 KJV] 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
[Rev 13:8 KJV] 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Roger,
Revelation is not my forte'...but here we go.

I read with interest your posts since I had always known there was one Book of Life...the Lamb's Book of Life would be the same book.

I read Revelation 20:12 on my own and it seems to me that it is saying that BOOKS WERE OPENED...
What books I do not know.

Then it says: AND ANOTHER BOOK WAS OPENED...
It seems to me that this book is totally different and separate from the other books that were opened, as above.

THIS is the book that Revelation calls THE BOOK OF LIFE.

I had to look into some commentaries since I know nothing about this and was not taught it in any church I've attended.

Here is the page I read. I think I understood Revelation correctly...

Revelation 20:12 Commentaries: And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the

 

[rogerg]

Roger,
Revelation is not my forte'...but here we go.

I read with interest your posts since I had always known there was one Book of Life...the Lamb's Book of Life would be the same book.

I read Revelation 20:12 on my own and it seems to me that it is saying that BOOKS WERE OPENED...
What books I do not know.

Then it says: AND ANOTHER BOOK WAS OPENED...
It seems to me that this book is totally different and separate from the other books that were opened, as above.

THIS is the book that Revelation calls THE BOOK OF LIFE.

I had to look into some commentaries since I know nothing about this and was not taught it in any church I've attended.

Here is the page I read. I think I understood Revelation correctly...

Revelation 20:12 Commentaries: And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the

Hi wondering,

Thanks for the reply. I think I sent you a later reply than the one you referenced here that goes into more detail
than my first one did. Anyway, I'll follow these links and maybe we can discuss if you're interested.
Addition: I think that post is #799

Roger

 

[Randy]

randy



Yet He made him so he would sin !



Of course, because He made man that way, adam must sin for a greater purpose centered in Christ Jesus, a redemptive purpose.

A third of the angels sinned and Jesus didn't come to save them.

I can only conclude that ANY other spirit God forms is capable of sin because only God is incapable of sinning and He is the first and last.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,
Just to clarify, it has been a while since I delved into the subject of the books, but after posting to you yesterday
I tried to recall my prior understanding of it. After a brief review, the following perceptions came to mind. I hope I've recalled all of the germane points now.
And I hope by this post that I haven't confused the topic more for you.

There are two books of life: One with only the names of those whom God chose to salvation, the other containing everyone ever to be born. I believe the first book - the one in heaven - is named the Lamb's book of life.
The existence of the first book, the one containing only those whom God has chosen, is established by these verses:

[Luk 10:20 KJV]
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

[Heb 12:23 KJV] 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The names "written in heaven" are ONLY those chosen to salvation by God

The second book is the book of life, AKA the book of the living. Everyone's name to ever be born, are in this book: both the chosen and not chosen. However, and this is a big however, those chosen were written into it first - one time for all, at the foundation of the world, the other names written into to it afterwards. Therefore, I think we can almost, in a sense, perceive it as consisting of two subsets of names in the one book: the chosen and not chosen. This, I believe, can be observed If we look very closely at the verses which follow.

In the below verse, we can see that that the kingdom that is to come was prepared for those who are to inherit it from the foundation of the world, when their names were written into the book of life

[Mat 25:34 KJV]
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Those whose names are not in the book of life of the Lamb, shall worship the beast and so will be blotted out of the book of life (BTW "with the righteous" means that their names cannot be left in the book of life, sometimes referred to as the book of the living)

[Psa 69:28 KJV] 28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

[Rev 13:8 KJV]
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

[Rev 21:27 KJV] 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Those whose names NOT WRITTEN into the book of life from the foundation of the world, (i.e., afterwards)
shall be enticed by and follow the beast and will be blotted out. Those whose names were written into it from the foundation of the world, because they were written into it from the foundation of the world, will NOT wonder after or follow the beast nor be blotted out. In the below verse, please observe, that it's not that their names weren't/aren't in the book of life that they are blotted out, but because they are not of those who were written into it "from the foundation of the world". By that, this verse gives to us clear distinction between those written into it from the foundation of the world, and those who weren't.

[Rev 17:8 KJV]
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Yes, I missed the above.

You say one book has names written in it from the beginning (the foundation of the world).
These would be those that God foreknew would be saved and so for them the kingdom is prepared - for the saved -
and their name could never be blotted out.

What about Revelation 13:8?
What names are those?

My only other thought would be as to the why that God would write in another book names that could be erased...

I don't think I'd want to get into this any more than considering the above questions.
(but I will attempt to find out more from reliable sources...not online).

 

[GodsGrace]

randy



Yet He made him so he would sin !



Of course, because He made man that way, adam must sin for a greater purpose centered in Christ Jesus, a redemptive purpose.

Brighfame,
Once again you wander off from common sense thinking.
John Calvin was a super intelligent person...but he also wandered away from biblical teaching.

You claim that God made man capable of sining.
Wouldn't you call this FREE WILL?

OR
Are you saying that God PLANNED persons to sin, as in your previous post to which I replied and you did not answer.

If God PLANNED man to sin so that His PLAN to sacrifice His Son would be achieved,

then you ARE stating that God forces persons to sin.
You can deny this...but if God planned everything, even the dust floating through the air, then God does FORCE men to sin.

Once again rogerg is correct.
Once again, you are unable to explain HOW Calvinism makes sense.

Which is all I'm asking.

 

[rogerg]

What names are those?

I think the names are of those who were written into the book of life at their birth and are removed at death because they no longer have life, nor will they ever have it again, that is, they are the unsaved, as opposed to those whose names were written into it from the foundation of the world and who can never die; that is, the saved - they will remain in it eternally: they are those whom God has chosen - so, by having eternal life, their names must remain in in the book for all eternity.
wondering, I'm not sure that I have this all down exactly perfectly, but at minimum, maybe it can provide another perspective for further examination.
So, at this point we can terminate this discussion.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think the names are of those who were written into the book of life at their birth and are removed at death because they no longer have life, nor will they ever have it again, that is, they are the unsaved, as opposed to those whose names were written into it from the foundation of the world and who can never die; that is, the saved - they will remain in it eternally: they are those whom God has chosen - so, by having eternal life, their names must remain in in the book for all eternity.
wondering, I'm not sure that I have this all down exactly perfectly, but at minimum, maybe it can provide another perspective for further examination.
So, at this point we can terminate this discussion.

Agreed !
We have enough to rummage through.
But it IS something I've never pondered.
Discussion terminated.

 

[brightfame52]

randy

A third of the angels sinned and Jesus didn't come to save them.

Absolutely correct, they were not included in Gods eternal redemptive purpose, that lets us know God can have mercy on whomever He wills and withhold mercy if He chooses. In addition He created some elect angels that He kept from sinning.

I can only conclude that ANY other spirit God forms is capable of sin because only God is incapable of sinning and He is the first and last.

Correct Although He will make it I believe impossible for the saints in Glory to sin, because it will be no more death ! Rev 21 4


And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[GodsGrace]

randy



Absolutely correct, they were not included in Gods eternal redemptive purpose, that lets us know God can have mercy on whomever He wills and withhold mercy if He chooses. In addition He created some elect angels that He kept from sinning.


Correct Although He will make it I believe impossible for the saints in Glory to sin, because it will be no more death ! Rev 21 4


And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

How do you come to the conclusion that your God is a merciful God?

 

[brightfame52]

Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Gods word states there are none who seek after Him. The word seeketh, as used in Romans 3, is the greek word ekzēteō and means ‘to search out’, ‘investigate’, ‘crave’, ‘require’, ‘demand’, ‘worship’. No man, by nature, does any of these things when it comes to the true God. No man by nature craves, requires, demands, worships or has any love, fear for the true God, therefore, no man by nature seeks God. This evidences that man by nature has no Spiritual Life. This is because man sinned in Adam and died. Man by nature thinks that he does seek after the True and only Living God, but he never really knows the True God, as the True God, but always only an idol. Prov 14:12

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Matt 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If Christ never knew them, they really never knew Him Jn 10:14

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.17