Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[brightfame52]

electedbyhim

propitiation. Cf. 1Jn_4:10. The word means "appeasement" or "satisfaction." The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross satisfied the demands of God's holiness for the punishment of sin

Agreed, except the satisfaction was made only for the elect, the rest of mankind is under Gods wrath Rom 1:18

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him

See that ? These people are under Gods wrath and shall never see life, meaning they shall never be saved.

Now this cannot be the case for any sinner Christ died for because as you say , God for them has been appeased, justice satisfied.

So Jesus propitiated or satisfied God.

Thats correct but only for the elect, Christs Sheep, His church

for the whole world. This is a generic term, referring not to every single individual, but to mankind in general.

I agree it doesnt refer to every single individual, but disagree that it refers to mankind in general, I believe it refers to the world of Gods elect from amongst every ethnic group throughout the world Rev 5:9

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

The world of the redeemed ! Nothing general about that friend, but specific

Christ actually paid the penalty only for those who would repent and believe.

Agreed because paying their penalty secured to them the gifts of faith and repentance Rom 8:32

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

A number of Scriptures indicate that Christ died for the world (Joh_1:29; Joh_3:16; Joh_6:51; 1Ti_2:6; Heb_2:9).

These all refer to the elect in the world

Since much of the world will be eternally condemned to hell to pay for their own sins, they could not have been paid for by Christ (cf. Mat_7:13-14).

Amen agreed

The passages which speak of Christ's dying for the whole world must be understood to refer to mankind in general (as in Tit_2:11)

Disagree, the elect in the world of all ethnic groups. The grace of God there is bringing salvation, meaning conversion, and we know everyone isnt going to be converted by saving grace.

World indicates the sphere, the beings toward whom God seeks reconciliation and has provided propitiation.

No its the world that God has reconciled to Himself by the death of His Son Rom 5:10; 2 Cor 5:19, and the world who Christ has propitiated God for 1 Jn 2:2

God has mitigated His wrath on sinners temporarily, by letting them live and enjoy earthly life (see note on 1Ti_4:10). In that sense, Christ has provided a brief, temporal propitiation for the whole world.

Absolutely false, Gods wrath to the non elect hasn't been mitigated one iota, His wrath is presently upon them as stated earlier Rom 1:18; Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

That word abideth is in the present tense, its presently in this life abiding, remaining on them, then after that, the Judgment and more wrath

Nothing about Christs propitiation provided temporary reprievement from wrath of God, if it did, no one would be presently under Gods wrath

But He actually satisfied fully the wrath of God eternally only for the elect who believe.

Agreed, now you need to stay consistent with this though throughout

Christ's death in itself had unlimited and infinite value because He is Holy God.

Most certainly, but it was particular in its purpose of accomplishment, it was guided by Gods eternal purpose to save His elect

Thus, His sacrifice was sufficient to pay the penalty for all the sins of all whom God brings to faith.

Yeah and thats it, because it was guided by purpose only to save the elect, so it was sufficient only for them, also His death provides the faith as well by sending the Spirit to them

But the actual satisfaction and atonement was made only for those who believe (cf. Joh_10:11, Joh_10:15; Joh_17:9, Joh_17:20; Act_20:28; Rom_8:32, Rom_8:37; Eph_5:25).

Correct this is consistent even though you didn't probably mean it that way lol

The pardon for sin is offered to the whole world

Absolutely false, pardon, or forgiveness of sins is given to Gods elect based on the work of Christ, its not offered to any Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Israel here just means Gods elect, not the physical nation, notice as Saviour Christ gives 2 things here #1 Repentance #2 Forgiveness of sins, its not an offer friend

Think about this, what is the purpose of God offering forgivenss to people Christ didnt die for anyway ? So whats the bases for offering them pardon or forgiveness ? It cant be the blood of Christ if Christ didnt die for them. If you say faith, then you saying their faith and not the death of Christ provided them forgiveness, and thats works

There is no other way to be reconciled to God.

And the elect are reconciled to God by the death of His Son Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Thank you for your input and may the Lord give thee understanding, and cause you to consider these things even more !

 

[electedbyHim]

What determines who are the elect?

Not the arbitrary decision of a cosmic monster;

But the foreknown choice of those who would receive Jesus as Saviour and Lord down the annals of history.

What determines who are the elect?

The Lord does
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love,
Eph 1:5 by predestining us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He graciously bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Not the arbitrary decision of a cosmic monster;

That is your opinion, and not Biblical

But the foreknown choice of those who would receive Jesus as Saviour and Lord down the annals of history.
What determines who are the elect?

Not Biblical
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love,
Eph 1:5 by predestining us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He graciously bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Rom 8:29 Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers;
Rom 8:30 and those whom He predestined, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified; and those whom He justified, He also glorified.

Romans 8:29​

foreknew. Not a reference simply to God's omniscience—that in eternity past He knew who would come to Christ. Rather, it speaks of a predetermined choice to set His love on us and established an intimate relationship—or His election (cf. Act_2:23—a rule of Greek grammar, called the Granville Sharp rule, equates "predetermination" and "foreknowledge"; see notes on 1Pe_1:1-2, and cf. with Rom_1:20—the term must be interpreted the same in both verses). See notes on election in Rom_9:11-23.

predestined. Lit. "to mark out, appoint, or determine beforehand." Those whom God chooses, He destines for His chosen end—that is, likeness to His Son (see notes on Eph_1:4-5, Eph_1:11).

conformed to the image of His Son. The goal of God's predestined purpose for His own is that they would be made like Jesus Christ. This is the "prize of the upward call" (Php_3:14; cf. Eph_4:13; Php_3:20-21; Col_1:28; 1Jn_3:2).

firstborn. The preeminent one, the only one who is the rightful heir (cf. Psa_89:27; Col_1:15-18; Rev_1:5). Jesus Christ is the most notable one among those who have become "brethren" by being made like Him.

 

[brightfame52]

electedbyhim

foreknew. Not a reference simply to God's omniscience—that in eternity past He knew who would come to Christ. Rather, it speaks of a predetermined choice to set His love on us and established an intimate relationship—or His election (cf. Act_2:23—a rule of Greek grammar, called the Granville Sharp rule, equates "predetermination" and "foreknowledge"; see notes on 1Pe_1:1-2, and cf. with Rom_1:20—the term must be interpreted the same in both verses). See notes on election in Rom_9:11-23.

I agree for its only Gods good pleasure to be the cause of our election, for its an election of grace Eph 1:4-6

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

 

[heartwashed]

False, Christs blood propitiated God, so those Christ died for God is at peace and favor with them based on that alone, before they do anything, even while they are enemies and ungodly. Has nothing to do with what man appropriates, thats a false gospel

As long as you fail to appropriate the propitiation that is offered to you through Christ's blood through faith, you will not be saved.

Therefore, for you, eternity is at stake.

Are you willing to gamble eternity on your being right and me wrong?

Not Biblical

Biblical (Romans 8:29-30, 1 Peter 1:2).

foreknew. Not a reference simply to God's omniscience—that in eternity past He knew who would come to Christ.

foreknew does in fact refer to God's Omnisicience and His knowledge beforehand of everything that will occur in history.

 

[brightfame52]

heartwashed

As long as you fail to appropriate the propitiation that is offered to you through Christ's blood through faith, you will not be saved.

Look at you, attributing salvation to man, what he must do !

 

[brightfame52]

heartwashed

foreknew does in fact refer to God's Omnisicience and His knowledge beforehand of everything that will occur in history.

Of course God foreknows everything that will happen in history since He predetermined everything that will occur in history. He declared the end [of the world] from the beginning of the world Isa 46:10

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Its all based upon His counsel and the doing of His good pleasure.

Ps 33:11
11 The counsel of the Lord standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

 

[heartwashed]

heartwashed



Look at you, attributing salvation to man, what he must do !

Look at you, attributing to God's arbitrary decision the condemnation of millions to an eternal hell!

heartwashed



Of course God foreknows everything that will happen in history since He predetermined everything that will occur in history. He declared the end [of the world] from the beginning of the world Isa 46:10

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Its all based upon His counsel and the doing of His good pleasure.

Ps 33:11
11 The counsel of the Lord standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

In your opinion, is God responsible for things such as thefts, murders, and adulteries?

1Sa 24:13, As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: but mine hand shall not be upon thee.

 

[brightfame52]

Look at you, attributing to God's arbitrary decision the condemnation of millions to an eternal hell!


In your opinion, is God responsible for things such as thefts, murders, and adulteries?

1Sa 24:13, As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: but mine hand shall not be upon thee.

Your concept of Salvation is man centered, conditioned on what a man does ! Thats works salvation !

 

[heartwashed]

Your concept of Salvation is man centered, conditioned on what a man does ! Thats works salvation !

At least I don't hold God's arbitrary decision responsible for the condemnation of many to everlasting burnings.

 

[brightfame52]

The fact that no man naturally seeks God Rom 3:11 its evidence of our corrupt will, the will of man is enslaved to sin, has no desire for God, the True God. 17

 

[electedbyHim]

As long as you fail to appropriate the propitiation that is offered to you through Christ's blood through faith, you will not be saved.

Therefore, for you, eternity is at stake.

Are you willing to gamble eternity on your being right and me wrong?



Biblical (Romans 8:29-30, 1 Peter 1:2).



foreknew does in fact refer to God's Omnisicience and His knowledge beforehand of everything that will occur in history.

heartwashed wrote: But the foreknown choice of those who would receive Jesus as Saviour and Lord down the annals of history.

This not biblical. The Lord did not choose anyone because they would choose Him.
Sinful man cannot choose God, that is not biblical.

 

[brightfame52]

This not biblical. The Lord did not choose anyone because they would choose Him.
Sinful man cannot choose God, that is not biblical.

That is correct ! Thats works salvation.

 

[heartwashed]

This not biblical. The Lord did not choose anyone because they would choose Him.
Sinful man cannot choose God, that is not biblical.

It is definitely biblical that a man can choose God as an act of his own will.

Jos 24:15, And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Rev 3:20, Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Rev 22:17, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[heartwashed]

Predestination is according to foreknowledge (Romans 8:29-30, 1 Peter 1:2).

Foreknowledge being that God knows before it happens, that someone will receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

 

[electedbyHim]

It is definitely biblical that a man can choose God as an act of his own will.

Jos 24:15, And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Rev 3:20, Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Rev 22:17, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely

The only way they can choose God is if God is drawing them to Himself.

This has been discussed in this thread already and multiple times.

Human pride wants to believe they had something to do in choosing salvation, giving themselves credit and dethroning God.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[brightfame52]

heartwashed

It is definitely biblical that a man can choose God as an act of his own will.

Man by nature doesnt seek or desire God with his will Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

None even understands the True God as well

 

[heartwashed]

The only way they can choose God is if God is drawing them to Himself.

I'm in agreement.

I would say, however, that drawing does not = regeneration.

Regeneration happens when the sinner receives Jesus as Saviour and Lord.

He cannot do that apart from being drawn.

However, the person being drawn has the option of rejecting Christ.

Therefore, being drawn is not = to regeneration and neither does it guarantee regeneration.

 

[brightfame52]

I'm in agreement.

I would say, however, that drawing does not = regeneration.

Regeneration happens when the sinner receives Jesus as Saviour and Lord.

He cannot do that apart from being drawn.

However, the person being drawn has the option of rejecting Christ.

Therefore, being drawn is not = to regeneration and neither does it guarantee regeneration.

But being drawn is equivalent to new birth, regeneration. It can be read Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me regenerates or quickens him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The drawing represents life ! Prior to quickening, drawing, man is spiritually dead. Thats why man cannot come to Christ without this intervention. Do you think the Father is drawing a spiritually dead person or spiritually alive person ?

 

[heartwashed]

But being drawn is equivalent to new birth, regeneration. It can be read Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me regenerates or quickens him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The drawing represents life ! Prior to quickening, drawing, man is spiritually dead. Thats why man cannot come to Christ without this intervention. Do you think the Father is drawing a spiritually dead person or spiritually alive person ?

No one can come to Christ unless they are drawn; but notice that this is not saying that being drawn guarantees a person coming to Christ in surrender..

You also misquoted the verse.

Jhn 6:44, No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The person here that He will raise up at the last day, being the person who comes to Him; not necessarily the one who is merely drawn to Him.

 

[brightfame52]

No one can come to Christ unless they are drawn; but notice that this is not saying that being drawn guarantees a person coming to Christ in surrender..

You also misquoted the verse.

Jhn 6:44, No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The person here that He will raise up at the last day, being the person who comes to Him; not necessarily the one who is merely drawn to Him.

Drawn means born again, no one can come to Christ unless born again and led by the Spirit.