Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[Iconoclast]

Lol, your funny. What sin does an infant commit out of the 613 laws of Torah that decree the laws?

Adam was our federal
repteentstive

No, it declares that David was conceived in sin. In Psalm 139 David also declares he was beautifully and wonderfully made.
David wrote both psalms….

Yes.Both are true.

 

[electedbyHim]

We know that is what Calvinist believe as the scriptures you use are being taken out of context. We are born in iniquity which means we are born into a sinful world, not that we are born with sin already.

Let me ask you this, how can a baby sin that knows no sin?

This is not what the Scriptures teach. We are born with sin.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak falsehood wander in error from birth.
Ephesians 2:3 among whom we all also formerly conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Gen 8:21 And Yahweh smelled the soothing aroma; and Yahweh said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again strike down every living thing as I have done.

Psalms 51:5

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity,.... This cannot be understood of any personal iniquity of his immediate parents; since this respects his wonderful formation in the womb, in which both he and they were wholly passive, as the word here used is of that form; and is the amazing work of God himself, so much admired by the psalmist, Psa_139:13; and cannot design any sinfulness then infused into him by his Maker, seeing God cannot be the author of sin; but of original sin and corruption, derived to him by natural generation: and the sense is, that as soon as ever the mass of human nature was shaped and quickened, or as soon as soul and body were united together, sin was in him, and he was in sin, or became a sinful creature;

and in sin did my mother conceive me; by whom cannot be meant Eve; for though she is the mother of all living, and so of David, yet could not, with any propriety, be said to conceive him: this only could be said of his immediate parent, not even of his next grandmother, much less of Eve, at the distance of almost three thousand years. Nor does the sin in which he was conceived intend any sin of his parents, in begetting and conceiving him, being in lawful wedlock; which acts cannot be sinful, since the propagation of the human species by natural generation is a principle of nature implanted by God himself; and is agreeably to the first law of nature, given to man in a state of innocence, "increase and multiply", Gen_1:28. Marriage is the institution of God in paradise; and in all ages has been accounted "honourable in all, when the bed is undefiled", Heb_13:4. Nor does it design his being conceived when his mother was in "profluviis", of which there is no proof, and is a mere imagination, and can answer no purpose; much less that he was conceived in adultery, as the contenders for the purity of human nature broadly intimate; which shows how much they are convicted by this text, to give into such an interpretation of it, at the expense of the character of an innocent person, of whom there is not the least suggestion of this kind in the Holy Scriptures; but on the contrary, she is represented as a religious woman, and David valued himself upon his relation to her as such, Psa_86:16. Besides, had this been the case, as David would have been a bastard, he would not have been suffered to enter into the congregation of the Lord, according to the law in Deu_23:2; whereas he often did with great delight, Psa_42:4. Moreover, it is beside his scope and design to expose the sins of others, much less his own parents, while he is confessing and lamenting his own iniquities: and to what purpose should he mention theirs, especially if he himself was not affected by them, and did not derive a corrupt nature from them? Nor is the sin he speaks of any actual sin of his own, and therefore he does not call it, as before, "my" iniquity and "my" sin; though it was so, he having sinned in Adam, and this being in his nature; but "iniquity" and "sin", it being common to him with all mankind. Hence we learn the earliness of the corruption of nature; it is as soon as man is conceived and shapen; and that it is propagated from one to another by natural generation; and that it is the case of all men: for if this was the case of David, who was born of religious parents, was famous for his early piety, and from whose seed the Messiah sprung, it may well be concluded to be the case of all. And this corruption of nature is the fountain, source, and spring of all sin, secret and open, private and public; and is mentioned here not as an extenuation of David's actual transgressions, but as an aggravation of them; he having been, from his conception and formation, nothing else but a mass of sin, a lump of iniquity; and, in his evangelical repentance for them, he is led to take notice of and mourn over the corruption of his nature, from whence they arose. The Heathens themselves affirm, that no man is born without sin (c).

(c) "Nam vitiis nemo sine nascitur". Horat. Sermon. l. 1. Satyr. 3.

 

[for_his_glory]

This is not what the Scriptures teach. We are born with sin.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak falsehood wander in error from birth.
Ephesians 2:3 among whom we all also formerly conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Gen 8:21 And Yahweh smelled the soothing aroma; and Yahweh said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again strike down every living thing as I have done.

Again, tell us how a baby sins. Since Jesus was born of a woman that would mean He was born with sin since He was also fully man.

Being brought forth in iniquity in that verse is about David who sinned against God after he had gone in to Bathsheba.

Many go astray after they are born, but does not say babies are born with sin as we are only born with a nature to sin and is not activated within us until we do transgress against God.

According to Luke 5:30-32 many have been righteous in the eyes of God since birth as they were trained up by Godly parents and never turned away from their training.

Calvinist, like so many others, love to use those scriptures to prove their point, but yet do not search out the full context.

Point blank, a baby can not sin because they have no concept of what sin is.

 

[for_his_glory]

Conceived in iniquity. Nothing was out of context.
You are.one who does.not go to church right?
You could learn if.you went to Sunday school.
Roman's 5:12-21...is a well known passage.
It is central to understand the gospel.

I'm in Church everyday within the fellowship I have with God through my relationship with Christ Jesus allowing the Holy Spirit teach me and also works through those who have more Spiritual knowledge than I have to help teach me. The body of Christ is not four walls with a name attached to the front door as even Pastors disagree with each other. Jesus is not returning just for Calvinist, but all that are His own by the Spiritual rebirth from above and have been baptized in the Holy Spirit. Many do not seek God for what He has already gave to the Prophets and Apostles to write and teach, but rather seek after what a man declares to be truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

Again, tell us how a baby sins. Since Jesus was born of a woman that would mean He was born with sin since He was also fully man.

Being brought forth in iniquity in that verse is about David who sinned against God after he had gone in to Bathsheba.

Many go astray after they are born, but does not say babies are born with sin as we are only born with a nature to sin and is not activated within us until we do transgress against God.

According to Luke 5:30-32 many have been righteous in the eyes of God since birth as they were trained up by Godly parents and never turned away from their training.

Calvinist, like so many others, love to use those scriptures to prove their point, but yet do not search out the full context.

Point blank, a baby can not sin because they have no concept of what sin is.

Hi FHG
The problem here is that there is a difference between sinning and having sin imputed to us.
Babies DO NOT sin.
They don't even know what sin is.

And
Sin is not imputed to them or to any of us.
We are responsible for our own sins and not those of anyone else.

A baby is born saved and cannot sin until he understands what sin is.
This takes years and most of the time goes into the teens...however, this is only something
God will know and not us.

God is merciful and loving.

Jesus was t he ultimate revelation of God and Jesus was loving, merciful and just.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Revelation 22:12
12“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.

 

[electedbyHim]

Again, tell us how a baby sins. Since Jesus was born of a woman that would mean He was born with sin since He was also fully man.

Being brought forth in iniquity in that verse is about David who sinned against God after he had gone in to Bathsheba.

Many go astray after they are born, but does not say babies are born with sin as we are only born with a nature to sin and is not activated within us until we do transgress against God.

According to Luke 5:30-32 many have been righteous in the eyes of God since birth as they were trained up by Godly parents and never turned away from their training.

Calvinist, like so many others, love to use those scriptures to prove their point, but yet do not search out the full context.

Point blank, a baby can not sin because they have no concept of what sin is.

Your opinion is not what the Bible teaches.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak falsehood wander in error from birth.

​

All people are born totally depraved. Without being made new creatures in Christ by God's power, they are prevented by their wicked nature from pleasing God (cf. Psa_51:5; Rom_3:9-18; 2Co_5:17).

for_his_glory said​

According to Luke 5:30-32 many have been righteous in the eyes of God since birth as they were trained up by Godly parents and never turned away from their training.

Wow!

How did you come to that conclusion?

It says nothing like that in those verses, verse 32 is talking about the self-righteous.

Luke 5:30-32 And the Pharisees and their scribes began grumbling at His disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with the tax collectors and sinners?” And Jesus answered and said to them, “It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick. “I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

 

[GodsGrace]

Lol, your funny. What sin does an infant commit out of the 613 laws of Torah that decree the laws?

Calvinists have strange ideas.
AND, they refuse to have a decent discussion and just feel like they're right about everything
and everyone else is not intelligent enough to accept their god.

An infant cannot sin.
We are born with a sinful nature...
not with sins counted to our soul.
Babies are born innocent and remain that way for many years.

Even to an adult, an action may not be counted as sin, unless the adult knows he is sinning.

Calvinists do not know a God of love, mercy and justice.
They know a God other Christians are not familiar with.

 

[stovebolts]

Adam was our federal
repteentstive

What is a federal representative? Never heard of that one before.

Both are true.

I agree, both passages are true.
However, being brought forth in iniquity while being fearfully and wonderfully made does not mean one is a sinner.

Again, what sin is an infant guilty of? We are not guilty of Adams sin anymore than I am guilty of the sins my Father commuted. However, my life has been affected due to my Fathers sins. This is not to say I’m guilty of his sins. In this same way, I am affected by Adams sins, but I am not guilty of them.

If you claim an infant is a sinner, then that means there is a sin that infant is guilty of. Out of the 613 laws, which law is a newborn guilty of?

 

[GodsGrace]

Conceived in iniquity. Nothing was out of context.
You are.one who does.not go to church right?
You could learn if.you went to Sunday school.
Roman's 5:12-21...is a well known passage.
It is central to understand the gospel.

Are you capable of having a conversation without insulting other members?

 

[GodsGrace]

What is a federal representative? Never heard of that one before.

I agree, both passages are true.
However, being brought forth in iniquity while being fearfully and wonderfully made does not mean one is a sinner.

Again, what sin is an infant guilty of? We are not guilty of Adams sin anymore than I am guilty of the sins my Father commuted. However, my life has been affected due to my Fathers sins. This is not to say I’m guilty of his sins. In this same way, I am affected by Adams sins, but I am not guilty of them.

If you claim an infant is a sinner, then that means there is a sin that infant is guilty of. Out of the 613 laws, which law is a newborn guilty of?

Some give the title Federal Head to Adam.
It's neither here nor there since his disobedience caused all of mankind to fall...
whatever we wish to call it.

 

[stovebolts]

Your opinion is not what the Bible teaches.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak falsehood wander in error from birth.



Wow!

How did you come to that conclusion?

It says nothing like that in those verses, verse 32 is talking about the self-righteous.

Luke 5:30-32 And the Pharisees and their scribes began grumbling at His disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with the tax collectors and sinners?” And Jesus answered and said to them, “It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick. “I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

Honestly, it brings me great sadness that you have such a low self esteem for yourself. You were born good, not wicked. You were beautifully and wonderfully made. God has never stopped loving you.

Start seeing yourself as God has always seen you.

God bless.

 

[electedbyHim]

Calvinists have strange ideas.
AND, they refuse to have a decent discussion and just feel like they're right about everything
and everyone else is not intelligent enough to accept their god.

An infant cannot sin.
We are born with a sinful nature...
not with sins counted to our soul.
Babies are born innocent and remain that way for many years.

Even to an adult, an action may not be counted as sin, unless the adult knows he is sinning.

Calvinists do not know a God of love, mercy and justice.
They know a God other Christians are not familiar with.

Just your opinions and not Biblical.

You do not understand what those heretical calvinists believe.

The doctrines of Grace were in the Bible long before they became popularized by man.

You have proven this countless times, you just do not understand.

No worries, we are still brothers and sisters in Christ with different beliefs.

 

[GodsGrace]

Just your opinions and not Biblical.

You do not understand what those heretical calvinists believe.

The doctrines of Grace were in the Bible long before they became popularized by man.

You have proven this countless times, you just do not understand.

No worries, we are still brothers and sisters in Christ with different beliefs.

I don't think we're brothers in Christ.
Jesus said people would know His disciples by the love they have for one another.
I don't see any love in 95% (or more) of calvinists.

Another member here insults everyone he speaks to.

Calvinists assume no one understands their faith and belief system.
Could it, maybe, be because it is not biblical?

You don't accept calvinism because you're smarter than anyone else,
you accept it because you've been indoctrinated into that system.

The doctrine of grace.
That's funny.
In your theology God is void of grace.

And these one liners instead of real replies...
perhaps because you cannot reply?

I've tried to speak to different persons that are of the reformed faith...
including Iconoclast --- it's impossible because of the attitude.
Even John MacArthur teaches that you should love the reprobate...
at least listen to your leaders and live your life with love, as Jesus taught.

 

[electedbyHim]

Honestly, it brings me great sadness that you have such a low self esteem for yourself. You were born good, not wicked. You were beautifully and wonderfully made. God has never stopped loving you.

Start seeing yourself as God has always seen you.

God bless.

Ha, low self-esteem. That is great.

I can relate with Paul, chief of sinners, O wretched man that I am. Even David understood what a filthy rotten sinner he was.

Because I fully understand the sinfulness of my person means I have low self-esteem.

This is the problem in the church, lets build everyone's self-esteem up, lets tell them how great they are and lets never have any negativity in our lives.

I should start watching Joel Osteen.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ha, low self-esteem. That is great.

I can relate with Paul, chief of sinners, O wretched man that I am. Even David understood what a filthy rotten sinner he was.

Because I fully understand the sinfulness of my person means I have low self-esteem.

This is the problem in the church, lets build everyone's self-esteem up, lets tell them how great they are and lets never have any negativity in our lives.

I should start watching Joel Osteen.

1 John 3:1
1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God:

I am not a dirty, rotten, filthy sinner.
I'm a child of God.

Why do you not see yourself as God sees you?

(I know your post was not for me).

 

[electedbyHim]

I don't think we're brothers in Christ.
Jesus said people would know His disciples by the love they have for one another.
I don't see any love in 95% (or more) of calvinists.

Another member here insults everyone he speaks to.

Calvinists assume no one understands their faith and belief system.
Could it, maybe, be because it is not biblical?

You don't accept calvinism because you're smarter than anyone else,
you accept it because you've been indoctrinated into that system.

The doctrine of grace.
That's funny.
In your theology God is void of grace.

And these one liners instead of real replies...
perhaps because you cannot reply?

I've tried to speak to different persons that are of the reformed faith...
including Iconoclast --- it's impossible because of the attitude.
Even John MacArthur teaches that you should love the reprobate...
at least listen to your leaders and live your life with love, as Jesus taught.

I don't think we're brothers in Christ.

Are you judging my salvation or yours?

Your right and everyone is wrong.

When presented verses, they are wrong.

I just have to laugh.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[electedbyHim]

1 John 3:1
1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God:

I am not a dirty, rotten, filthy sinner.
I'm a child of God.

Why do you not see yourself as God sees you?

(I know your post was not for me).

I know how God see me and He does not look on my sin. In His eyes I am righteous, in my eyes I am not.

But from a human perspective it is always there. And continually nagging at me.

Romans 7:14-25 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, having been sold into bondage under sin. For what I am working out, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not want, I agree with the Law, that it is good. So now, no longer am I the one working it out, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the working out of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one working it out, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that in me evil is present—in me who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in my members, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a captive to the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you judging my salvation or yours?

Your right and everyone is wrong.

When presented verses, they are wrong.

I just have to laugh.

Grace and peace to you.

E,
My salvation has been questioned all the time by the reformed.
So, how does it feel?

And yeah, stop looking in the mirror.

 

[electedbyHim]

E,
My salvation has been questioned all the time by the reformed.
So, how does it feel?

And yeah, stop looking in the mirror.

I am not certain why anyone would question anybody's salvation. On the flip side, I would question anybody who claims to be saved and lives in continuous sin.

It does not bother me so no feeling involved.

Yes, looking in the mirror. I believe it to be sin to be consumed with my own sin if that makes any sense at all. We all have sin in our lives, and if we say we do not then we are a liar.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[electedbyHim]

I have been judged by the Pentecostals/charasmaniacs and Catholics. I have been told by many many of these people that I am wrong, not saved and do not know how to interpret the Bible and should not take it literally.

Yet I still keep persevering.