Does salvation automatically equate to 'knowing' God?

[Jethro Bodine]

DL said "Yes, and every believer not just the mature have eternal life."

So are you saying Only Mature Believers have eternal life?

If you've been reading my posts I've been explaining that life eternal is not just immortality, but also an abundant spiritual life.

We get the life never-ending--immortality--at the resurrection. All believers have that. We get the abundant life never-ending when we tap the Spirit for that life...by being obedient to love others. So it is in that sense that, yes, the eternal 'zoe' life of abundance is for the mature. They show they 'know' God in the way defined by John.

The promise of this life eternal and all that means is embodied in the Holy Spirit. That's how we have what is promised now.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What is your opinion about the the parable of the Sower?
JLB

Awesome question.

( I'm thinking someone here knows the scriptural basis of what I was saying about Mark 4.)

 

[JLB]

DL said "Yes, and every believer not just the mature have eternal life."

So are you saying Only Mature Believers have eternal life?

I am saying -

Every believer who believes to the end, has eternal life.

I also am saying with DL - Every believer has eternal life.


Can you be a believer and not love?

JLB

 

[Deborah13]

I am saying -

Every believer who believes to the end, has eternal life.

I also am saying with DL - Every believer has eternal life.


Can you be a believer and not love?

JLB

I heard DL say, that all believers will love, and yes that love becomes more perfect over time.

YEP, every BELIEVER has eternal life.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

But we don't all have the manifestation of the eternal 'zoe' life that comes to us via the Holy Spirit.

This is getting to be pretty predictable. I present clear Scripture and you answer it with a "but." God has the final word my friend, and EVERY believer has eternal life.

Eternal life, as in immortality, is to be given at the resurrection, not now. And we do indeed have all the potential 'zoe' abundant life contained in us right now via the Holy Spirit, but we spend a lifetime learning to walk in and realize that potential. When we do come to the point where we are realizing that potential because of a genuine change of character inside of us John says we have come to 'know' God in the way that John is talking about--the way of love for others.

This is not love for God in tears and emotions and good feelings towards God (as genuine as they may certainly be), but in a genuine love acted out toward others. I wish it were true that all of us believers knew God that way, the way John talks about. But simple observation shows that simply is not true. But that hardly means those who don't are categorically not saved. It may mean that, but it hardly means that as a matter of rule.

You wish it were true yet you refuse to yield to the clear teaching of Scripture.. you seem quite conflicted.

The promise of eternal life is received when you are born again.

Find me one Scripture where it says the "promise" of eternal life is received when you are born again. I just gave an irrefutable example of how a person obtains eternal life upon believing.

You did not address the Greek grammar at all.

A promise that is realized in regard to 'zoe' abundant spiritual life as we grow up into his character. And a promise that is realized in regard to immortality at the resurrection. Provided we have believed to the very end.

Really, "provided we have believed to the very end," which that condition ensures that no one will have eternal life as you are describing until after death.

John defines the 'knowing' he is talking about as knowing God in such a way that you love others in a lifestyle of a changed character that looks like Christ. When you know God this way you are conformed to the image of Christ...and to the image of Christ to the same extent that you love others.

I don't think John would appreciate your misrepresentations. I have addressed this definition so many times I don't see the point in belaboring the matter any longer.

Remember, John is defining the knowing God that he is talking about as loving others in a lifestyle of a sincere, changed character. With that in mind, how can you know God in the way of being shaped and matured by the Holy Spirit before you are shaped and matured by the Holy Spirit? What's ridiculous is the suggestion that a person already knows God--the way John defines that knowing--before that person knows God that way.

Again, Scripture says, "for they shall all know (yada; relational knowledge) me." You say, "not all believers know God." I side with Scripture.

You seem pretty frustrated over this, lol.

I am just baffled you don't see how this interpretation is wrong, it's like talking to a wall.

The seed of God's word takes root in the soil of the earth (men's hearts) and a planting of God springs forth (the Christian) that eventually, like all plants, produces mature fruit in keeping with the seed of which it was born (the fruit of the Spirit). Surely you know all the supporting scriptures for what I just said(?)

You are just providing your own out of context interpretations to the parable of the growing seed. Surely you should know this by now.

Why insist on destroying this simple and perfectly Biblically consistent argument for the sake of avoiding the truth that we have to grow up into the knowing of God--this love for others, the fruit of the Spirit--that John says we do. Even if you disagree that Mark 4 is a parallel teaching to Matthew 13, surely you see Matthew 13 all by itself illustrates this truth of growing up into a mature planting of God that bears fruit.

I can't find a single commentator who agrees with your view on Mark 4, and I have sufficiently demonstrated what the parable is really about. You then try to seize Matthew 13 as a life line, but twist the imagery to suit your own desires, rather than by the way Jesus used the imagery.

I have no respect for those who twist Scripture in this way.

Now, when you bring this up again in another misguided effort to unfairly frustrate the simplicity of these parables I'm simply going to ask you, "What are you so afraid of? Why are you so afraid to admit that our love for God does not immediately manifest in a mature and educated love for others that you have to make sure the parables of the growing seed are not understood that way?"

I will always be afraid to speak against the clear teaching of God's Word. Ask yourself this, who in this thread has handled the Scriptures more in depth, taking into consideration the context and entirety of the statements given? If you think that is you, then you are fooling yourself. The twisting of the parable of the growing seed is a perfect example, where you take one verse, make up your own meaning and then accuse me of destroying simple Biblical teachings. Meanwhile, I am taking into account the WHOLE parable, carefully considering the introduction where Jesus establishes what the parable is about.

Scripture doesn't mean whatever you want it to mean, sorry it doesn't suit your personal preferences.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I heard DL say, that all believers will love, and yes that love becomes more perfect over time.

YEP, every BELIEVER has eternal life.

AMEN! It is beautiful to see a believer affirm that this amazing gift of eternal life is possessed by all of us in Christ.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Does that mean you are insisting once a person believes, they are a believer for life.

No.

I would say this is not what the scriptures teach. The scriptures teach us a believer has eternal life if that person continues to believe to the end of their faith.

There are two possible conclusions for that statement.

1) A person has eternal life only after they die, because they endured to the end in faith.
2) God foresees that they will endure to the end and gives eternal life only to those who believe in a way that endures.

John 5:24 doesn't agree with either of these. Here is why.

1) The present tense denotes a continual act, but just because something is continual does not necessarily that it MUST continue on for a long long time, but simply the tense is describing the type of action. A person may believe in this habitual way, but then later in life fall away.
2) The indicatives on the verbs "has" and "passed" denote that this text is about the immediate nature of receiving eternal life, that the person who believes "has" eternal life, presently and continually experiences that quality of life. And the person has "passed," perfect indicative, which denotes that this is something that happened in the past with future consequences, namely that they passed to life eternal when they believed and continue in this quality of life.

If a person who believes in 1970 and continues to believe through to the year 2014, then that person is more mature in their believing that a person who started believing in 2013.

No argument here.

If a person believes in 1970 and in 1990 decide to believe in Islam, and practice Islam, then that person no longer believes, nor has eternal life.

Are you saying that they never had eternal life then? Or that they had it and lost it?

Every believer who believes to the end, has eternal life.

When does the believer receive eternal life?

A person's believing will be more mature at the end than at the beginning.

When did I say anything contrary to this?

Thus your argument is refuted.

Cute, but no, you didn't refute anything. You seem to have argued against a lot of things I wasn't supporting, and then you were not clear enough with what exactly it was you were representing. Not to mention the fact that your argument was not accompanied by Scripture, which mine definitively was.

 

[Deborah13]

What is your opinion about the the parable of the Sower?
JLB

Mar 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
Mar 4:27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
Mar 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
Mar 4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

It is also how the kingdom grows.
The Gospel message is the seed, it produces many members to the body of Christ. When all the members have come in, the harvest will be gathered.
It's a mature church, ready for harvest, just an added thought.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is getting to be pretty predictable. I present clear Scripture and you answer it with a "but." God has the final word my friend, and EVERY believer has eternal life.

You're not listening.

Everyone who believes has the promise of eternal life. But not every believer matures into that life in this life (eternal life is an abundance of life, not just an everlasting life). We know we have matured into that life if we have progressed into the knowing of God that John describes. The knowing signified by the development of the mature fruit of love for others, not just a sappy emotional love for God himself. Nothing wrong with that sappy love for God alone in the short run. It simply means you do not 'know' God in the way John is talking about.

I suggest the person who resists growing up into that mature love for God/others is represented in the second type of soil/believer in the parable of the sower. They started out good but did not mature as required and were lost, even though they 'believed for a while'. Life's struggles won out and they returned to the world and did not mature. They will not be saved on the Day of Wrath.

 

[JLB]

Mar 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
Mar 4:27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
Mar 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
Mar 4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

It is also how the kingdom grows.
The Gospel message is the seed, it produces many members to the body of Christ. When all the members have come in, the harvest will be gathered.
It's a mature church, ready for harvest, just an added thought.

Now, getting back to the parable of the sower, which is the process of how people receive the Gospel, and what happens to the seed after an they receive the seed.

. 2 Then He taught them many things by parables, and said to them in His teaching: 3 "Listen! Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And it happened, as he sowed, that some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds of the air came and devoured it. 5 Some fell on stony ground, where it did not have much earth; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up it was scorched, and because it had no root it withered away. 7 And some seed fell among thorns; and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no crop. 8 But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred." 9 And He said to them, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" 10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that 'Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.' " 13 And He said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?

14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word's sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred."


21 Also He said to them, "Is a lamp brought to be put under a basket or under a bed? Is it not to be set on a lampstand? 22 For there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed, nor has anything been kept secret but that it should come to light. 23 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear." 24 Then He said to them, "Take heed what you hear. With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given. 25 For whoever has, to him more will be given; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him." 26 And He said, "The kingdom of God is as if a man should scatter seed on the ground, 27 and should sleep by night and rise by day, and the seed should sprout and grow, he himself does not know how. 28 For the earth yields crops by itself: first the blade, then the head, after that the full grain in the head. 29 But when the grain ripens, immediately he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come." Mark 4:2-29


The parable of the Sower, represents 4 distinct and different classifications of people who hear the word, and the results that follow.

The scriptures that you are quoting are not a direct reference to the parable of the Sower, but a general reference to the kingdom of God.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Doulos Iesou, said

There are two possible conclusions for that statement.

1) A person has eternal life only after they die, because they endured to the end in faith.
2) God foresees that they will endure to the end and gives eternal life only to those who believe in a way that endures.

John 5:24 doesn't agree with either of these. Here is why.

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

hears My word and believes in Him, is the key phrase hear, which is not a reference to a one time instantaneous event that takes place and can never be lost no matter if the person continues to believe and trust in God or not.

Believing as in trusting God Himself as a lifestyle, which is indicative of a relationship with Him, is different than a mental assent the "realizes God exists".

John 5:24 supports both:

• A person has eternal life only after they die, because they endured to the end in faith.

• God foresees that they will endure to the end and gives eternal life only to those who believe in a way that endures.

When does the believer receive eternal life?

When they know God.

Doulos Iesou -

Are you saying that they never had eternal life then? Or that they had it and lost it?

Not lost.

Discarded in favor of another belief.



JLB

 

[Doulos Iesou]

You're not listening.

Correct, I'm reading what you're writing and I find it lacking.

Everyone who believes has the promise of eternal life.

Again I'll ask, provide me one Scripture where it says the believer only has the "promise" of eternal life.

If you want, I can prove to you again... that every believer presently has eternal life.

But not every believer matures into that life in this life (eternal life is an abundance of life, not just an everlasting life).

Have some Scripture to back that up? Or just more self-serving inferences?

The knowing signified by the development of the mature fruit of love for others, not just a sappy emotional love for God himself.

You keep adding this word mature in there, and deny the power of the Holy Spirit, and contend that believers don't have eternal life now and that they don't know God.

This is heresy in my book, it's beyond error.

Nothing wrong with that sappy love for God alone in the short run. It simply means you do not 'know' God in the way John is talking about.

Every person who is born again, knows God. Some know him deeper, some don't know him as well. However, those who do not know God are not his children.

I suggest the person who resists growing up into that mature love for God/others is represented in the second type of soil/believer in the parable of the sower. They started out good but did not mature as required and were lost, even though they 'believed for a while'. Life's struggles won out and they returned to the world and did not mature. They will not be saved on the Day of Wrath.

This is basically what you're making, a classification for unsaved believers. People who don't have eternal life, and people who don't know God, and people who don't demonstrate any fruit nor have love.

Very strange.

 

[Deborah13]

Now, getting back to the parable of the sower, which is the process of how people receive the Gospel, and what happens to the seed after an they receive the seed.

. 2 Then He taught them many things by parables, and said to them in His teaching: 3 "Listen! Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And it happened, as he sowed, that some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds of the air came and devoured it. 5 Some fell on stony ground, where it did not have much earth; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up it was scorched, and because it had no root it withered away. 7 And some seed fell among thorns; and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no crop. 8 But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred." 9 And He said to them, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" 10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that 'Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.' " 13 And He said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?

14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word's sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred."


21 Also He said to them, "Is a lamp brought to be put under a basket or under a bed? Is it not to be set on a lampstand? 22 For there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed, nor has anything been kept secret but that it should come to light. 23 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear." 24 Then He said to them, "Take heed what you hear. With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given. 25 For whoever has, to him more will be given; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him." 26 And He said, "The kingdom of God is as if a man should scatter seed on the ground, 27 and should sleep by night and rise by day, and the seed should sprout and grow, he himself does not know how. 28 For the earth yields crops by itself: first the blade, then the head, after that the full grain in the head. 29 But when the grain ripens, immediately he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come." Mark 4:2-29


The parable of the Sower, represents 4 distinct and different classifications of people who hear the word, and the results that follow.

The scriptures that you are quoting are not a direct reference to the parable of the Sower, but a general reference to the kingdom of God.


JLB

YOU didn't say which one you wanted explained AND the one you are quoting in Matt, I never referred to at all. I only referred to Mark 4:26-29 And Matt.13:24-30, which is the only one that is even close to Mark 4:26-29 although not the same.

WHY would I assume that you wanted me to address a parable about sowing that I hadn't addressed without you specifying a change of parables??

Sheeshh, expect me to be a mind reader why don't ya'?

you said "The scriptures that you are quoting are not a direct reference to the parable of the Sower, but a general reference to the kingdom of God."

No kidding, and that is what I said. In my original post about the two parables.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

hears My word and believes in Him, is the key phrase hear, which is not a reference to a one time instantaneous event that takes place and can never be lost no matter if the person continues to believe and trust in God or not.

What would be a reference to the time? First, let's give you a quick lesson on Greek grammar.

Greek tenses more so denote the TYPE of action over the TIME of the action, except for when the tense is accompanied by a verb in the indicative case, where it then expresses the temporal element of the tense.

This verse happens to have two such cases where the verb is in the indicative case, which the first one is "has," with regards to when possession of eternal life takes place, which is in the present indicative. This suggests that a person who is presently believing, presently at that moment possesses eternal life.

The second instance is with the word "passed," which is used in reference to a person passing from death to life, and is in the perfect indicative. The perfect tense suggests that it is an event that took place in the past, namely when they believed, with continual consequences, namely that the person has the quality of eternal life.

It's funny you would only address the noun and the adjective when making your argument about the grammar suggests regards to time, yet fail to deal with the verbs.

This is what some like to call a refutation.

Believing as in trusting God Himself as a lifestyle, which is indicative of a relationship with Him, is different than a mental assent the "realizes God exists".

Who suggested that it was mental assent to the existence of God?

John 5:24 supports both:

• A person has eternal life only after they die, because they endured to the end in faith.

Negative, the perfect indicative tense of the word "passed" negates the possibility of this interpretation.

God foresees that they will endure to the end and gives eternal life only to those who believe in a way that endures.

Which would be an error of stressing the present tense too much on the word "believes."

When they know God.

Which is when they believe, correct?

Not lost.

Discarded in favor of another belief.

So a person can discard eternal life, which then negates the foreseen enduring faith view that you supported earlier.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is getting to be pretty predictable. I present clear Scripture and you answer it with a "but." God has the final word my friend, and EVERY believer has eternal life.

You're not paying attention.

I said everyone who believes has eternal life in them via the Holy Spirit. The problem is, we Christians are not very good at realizing that life within us (thanks largely to OSAS). That's what coming into the maturity of John's knowing is all about--learning to walk in the light that God has placed inside of his people by the Holy Spirit.

Because you define 'knowing God' outside of what John does in 1 John, you say all Christians are born with that mature knowing, this maturity of walking obediently by the Spirit. But it's clear from just the examples of the Corinthians, the Hebrew Church, and arguably the Galatians that this is hardly true.

If having this mature knowing right out of the gate is your own personal experience, or someone's experience you know, then good. But the Bible, and simple observation, show that Christians are destined to endure the growing pains of having their will conformed to the image of Jesus Christ over time.

"14 ...solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." (Hebrews 5:14 NASB italics mine)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Find me one Scripture where it says the "promise" of eternal life is received when you are born again. I just gave an irrefutable example of how a person obtains eternal life upon believing.

What believers have is the Holy Spirit, the agent through which eternal life is administered.

The Holy Spirit is our promise of immortality:
"10 In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance...
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession..." (Ephesians 1:10-11,13-14 NASB)

21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge." (2 Corinthians 1:21-22 NASB)

The Holy Spirit is also our promise of the behavioral righteousness we don't have now but are growing up into, and which will be perfected at the resurrection (when we also receive immortality):
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness." (Galatians 5:5 NASB)

The Holy Spirit is our 'grapes of Eschol', sent back by Jesus who has spied out the Promised Land ahead of us to show us the richness and abundance that await us if we will persist in faith and patience and determination of the promises.

The Holy Spirit, the 'grapes' of the Spirit, so to speak, is our confidence that what God has promised is real and waiting for all who would dare enter in through faith and obedience, just as the promise stood for the Israelites that they would enter into their promises through faith and obedience and victory over their enemies--enemies who possessed and locked them out of their promised inheritance.

Sadly, it seems most Christians don't seem to be making much effort to enjoy the abundance God has given them now to point us to and encourage us in our journey to the promises of God. Mature people do that, even though the potential for that abundance, that maturity, is in every single believer.

 

[jasonc]

does a human baby have the concept of his or her parents fully grasped or does he or she know enough to respond them when he sees them? and when he acts he has to be taught what to do as time goes on and the love that is there isn't expressed at first but is learned as he sees his parents do things?

salvation works much like that.

You're not paying attention.

I said everyone who believes has eternal life in them via the Holy Spirit. The problem is, we Christians are not very good at realizing that life within us (thanks largely to OSAS). That's what coming into the maturity of John's knowing is all about--learning to walk in the light that God has placed inside of his people by the Holy Spirit.

Because you define 'knowing God' outside of what John does in 1 John, you say all Christians are born with that mature knowing, this maturity of walking obediently by the Spirit. But it's clear from just the examples of the Corinthians, the Hebrew Church, and arguably the Galatians that this is hardly true.

If having this mature knowing right out of the gate is your own personal experience, or someone's experience you know, then good. But the Bible, and simple observation, show that Christians are destined to endure the growing pains of having their will conformed to the image of Jesus Christ over time.

"14 ...solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." (Hebrews 5:14 NASB italics mine)

I agree I have been saved for almost twenty years and still have the basic problems of loving and discerning things. I have read my bible thrice fully. all that I quote comes from memory.how is it that im that way? I will tell you. sin and stubbornness.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

You're not paying attention.

I said everyone who believes has eternal life in them via the Holy Spirit. The problem is, we Christians are not very good at realizing that life within us (thanks largely to OSAS). That's what coming into the maturity of John's knowing is all about--learning to walk in the light that God has placed inside of his people by the Holy Spirit.

Because you define 'knowing God' outside of what John does in 1 John, you say all Christians are born with that mature knowing, this maturity of walking obediently by the Spirit. But it's clear from just the examples of the Corinthians, the Hebrew Church, and arguably the Galatians that this is hardly true.

If having this mature knowing right out of the gate is your own personal experience, or someone's experience you know, then good. But the Bible, and simple observation, show that Christians are destined to endure the growing pains of having their will conformed to the image of Jesus Christ over time.

"14 ...solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." (Hebrews 5:14 NASB italics mine)

You do know that dishonesty is a sin right?

You claimed I have said, "you say all Christians are born with that mature knowing, this maturity of walking obediently by the Spirit."

I actually have said this.

Every person who is born again, knows God. Some know him deeper, some don't know him as well.

And here:

Every believer knows God to some degree, and then we come to know him even more intimately as we progress. But the beginning of our relationship with God is unlike any other, because it is supernatural and spiritual, having the Holy Spirit being put within us to reveal the glory of God in the face of Christ Jesus and to unveil the love of God to our hearts in adoption so that we come to know our new Father. This is not a work that comes later, it is only a knowledge that is made deeper.

Can you stop arguing against a straw man?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

What believers have is the Holy Spirit, the agent through which eternal life is administered.

And by which they have eternal life now, which is utterly ridiculous that you should claim that there are some believers who don't have eternal life, or rather haven't matured into it.

Yet you seem to have changed your position saying that every believer has the Holy Spirit, and therefore eternal life. You agreed that eternal life is a quality of life, that quality namely being "knowing God." Since every believer has eternal life, every believer knows God.

The Holy Spirit is our promise of immortality:
"10 In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance...
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession..." (Ephesians 1:10-11,13-14 NASB)

The inheritance is immortality? Where did you get that idea?

21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge." (2 Corinthians 1:21-22 NASB)
The Holy Spirit is also our promise of the behavioral righteousness we don't have now but are growing up into, and which will be perfected at the resurrection (when we also receive immortality):
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness." (Galatians 5:5 NASB)

What makes you think that the "hope of righteousness," is pertaining to our own future righteosness?

The Holy Spirit, the 'grapes' of the Spirit, so to speak, is our confidence that what God has promised is real and waiting for all who would dare enter in through faith and obedience, just as the promise stood for the Israelites that they would enter into their promises through faith and obedience and victory over their enemies--enemies who possessed and locked them out of their promised inheritance.

Sadly, it seems most Christians don't seem to be making much effort to enjoy the abundance God has given them now to point us to and encourage us in our journey to the promises of God. Mature people do that, even though the potential for that abundance, that maturity, is in every single believer.

So it's more so like you're arguing that the "potential" for eternal life resides in every believer, not that they actually possess it?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yet you seem to have changed your position saying that every believer has the Holy Spirit, and therefore eternal life.

No. Being sealed with the Holy Spirit when you believe is Christianity 101. That's not what's in debate here. What is in debate is whether or not believers start out in the mature life of the Spirit--John's 'knowing God'--or if they have to come to that 'knowing', even though they are already saved.

And by which they have eternal life now, which is utterly ridiculous that you should claim that there are some believers who don't have eternal life, or rather haven't matured into it.

They don't have eternal life operating in their life. They do not outwardly manifest the life that is within them by the Holy Spirit. The Bible calls that being immature--not living in the fruit of the Spirit. They are the ones that do not know God, as John qualifies that in his letter.

All believers know God in salvation. But not all believers know God in having learned how to live and walk in the Holy Spirit as seen in the fruit of the Spirit--the knowing John talks about. They are the one's who the Bible calls immature and who do not "have their senses trained to discern good and evil" (Hebrews 5:14 NASB) and treat others badly, but who may otherwise be very much saved.

You agreed that eternal life is a quality of life, that quality namely being "knowing God." Since every believer has eternal life, every believer knows God.

No, not all believers know God in the way John is talking about. The Corinthians, the Hebrews, and probably the Galatians, did not. The Bible plainly tells us the Corinthians were immature, treating each other badly, even calling them already defeated, if I remember correctly. By chapter 13 he is showing them the 'most excellent way', the way of love. The way they did not walk in. But who we know were most certainly saved.

The inheritance is immortality? Where did you get that idea?

From one of the passages I posted.

What makes you think that the "hope of righteousness," is pertaining to our own future righteosness?

Do you expect to be sinning in the next life? Of course not. We will walk in perfect righteousness in the life to come. That is our hope. For now we have a down payment of that righteousness via a measure of the Holy Spirit within us.

So it's more so like you're arguing that the "potential" for eternal life resides in every believer, not that they actually possess it?

They possess the promise of all that eternal life is by the Holy Spirit. What they may or may or not have is the manifestation of that eternal life in their lives. And, obviously, this is talking about the living righteously part of eternal life, not the immortality part. Obviously.