Does the human soul consciously exist following death

[Drew]

Hello jgredline:

Here are some texts that I believe express the position that the lost ultimately cease to exist:

Romans 6:23
John 3:16
John 3:36
1 John 3:15

I know that you will claim that "death" means something other than extinction of the entire person - and the dance continues......

 

[jgredline]

You bring up a good point. Oscar where are you ???????

As far as what you said here
You are denying scripture because you try to make words like 'death', 'destroy' 'destruction' 'perishing' which are always used to mean exactly that when applying to the wicked in CONTRAST to 'everlasting life' ,'eternal life' and 'immortality'.

I have asked you to post the scriptures but still you do not do it. I have told you and again I will quote myself here

''This is why I asked you for the verses. If I don't know what verse your talking about, how can I give you an answer for what the words mean?

Its like me asking you to bring a ball to the park tomarrow. If you don't know the context of what game we are playing, how are you going to know what ball to bring? Suppose you bring a football and we are playing Golf. ''

Well, lunch time is over for me, so back to work I go.

 

[Atonement]

Atonement: Are you or are you not going to either substantiate your claim or withdraw it?

Oh I'll with draw it.. I'm not going to go hunt down the error of your postion.. But the seed has been planted.. Prove all things.. Be on the Alert, Jg, Lovely, Solo, Free and others. There are many, just look for em'..

 

[Atonement]

Atonement: Are you or are you not going to either substantiate your claim or withdraw it?

Oh I'll with draw it.. I'm not going to go hunt down the error of your postion.. But the seed has been planted..

Prove all things..

Be on the Alert, Jg, Lovely, Solo, Free and others. Just look for em'..

 

[CP_Mike]

You know, I just came to the same conculsion about the same verse in the Hell thread, and I never read this post you made here. The Greek words that are used can not be manipulated. Yes I gave the shorter version of this very same thing, but the meaning is and will be the same.

Now what intrigues me is this, we have I believe 5, 6 maybe more people who believe in 'annihilation' yet they contradict among themselves in other threads. One say's it's the soul that get's annihilated, while the other say's no it's the spirit that returns to the Lord after giving up the ghost. One say's the soul is in non-exsistence, the other say's that punishment of the soul is not everlasting in time. And I could go on and on here. The common phrase now that I'm getting alot is this. Let so and so tell you because they have done more research and can explain it better then I can.... And they want to live in that kind of faith???

What I love about the truth, is that it can not be contradicted. If you study just here on this site alone how mine, jgredline, solo, lovely, and others who believe as we do, we do not contradict among ourselves. Is it just me, or am I the only one who has picked up on this??

Hi Atonement,
I know you have withdrawn the comment about 'souls' being annihilated, but none of us who support the idea of annihilation believe that people are bi or tri-partite in nature. rather we believe these words like soul, spirit describe the whole person from a particular view point. So I noticed you mentioned that soul has a lot to do with emotions.. well done! That is an aspect. What we are trying to bring accross here and throughout is that the Hebrews had no notion of of Greek and Cartesian dualism, rather they believed that people were unities, 'echad' meaning 'oneness' just like YHWH is one (DT 6:4). The problem is when you guys try and put the neopltonic concept that people are a sum of 'body', 'soul' and 'spirit' and try to superimpose the Greek meanings onto an essentially Hebrew bible!

 

[jgredline]

Hi Atonement,
I know you have withdrawn the comment about 'souls' being annihilated, but none of us who support the idea of annihilation believe that people are bi or tri-partite in nature. rather we believe these words like soul, spirit describe the whole person from a particular view point. So I noticed you mentioned that soul has a lot to do with emotions.. well done! That is an aspect. What we are trying to bring accross here and throughout is that the Hebrews had no notion of of Greek and Cartesian dualism, rather they believed that people were unities, 'echad' meaning 'oneness' just like YHWH is one (DT 6:4). The problem is when you guys try and put the neopltonic concept that people are a sum of 'body', 'soul' and 'spirit' and try to superimpose the Greek meanings onto an essentially Hebrew bible!

CP
I know this this post was directed at atonement, but in reading this, I saw a few things that raised some red flags. Rather than assume something that may not be true, I tought I would ask you about them.

Do you believe in the trinity? By the sound of this post, my guess is no.
so are you a Trinitarian ?
If you answer yes, then do you believe Jesus is God? or do you hold to modalism?

Now you say and I quote ''superimpose the Greek meanings onto an essentially Hebrew bible!

Can you elaborate more on this please.

Also you guys throw out this dualistic pagan greek theology out, and quite frankly in doing some research its seems to me that only Moromons, JW, and 7th day folks use this in thier writings. This seems to be how they explain away what the actual Greek means. It sounds like what you are saying over and over again is that God made a mistake in choosing the Greek language to express himself in word. :o

So this is why I am asking. Please don't give me a cut and paste job, answer in your own words.

 

[Oscar3]

Hello jgredline:

Here are some texts that I believe express the position that the lost ultimately cease to exist:

Romans 6:23
John 3:16
John 3:36
1 John 3:15

I know that you will claim that "death" means something other than extinction of the entire person - and the dance continues......

Goodness . This post is still going.

Romans 6:23
6:23 Paul explains that sin results in death, but God gives the gift of eternal life. Most often this verse has been used as a promise of regeneration. The phrase eternal life is used 42 times in the New Testament, and it usually refers to something we receive as a gift at the moment of belief in the gospel (John 3:16; 5:24; 6:40). But 11 of these 42 times, eternal life is presented as something to be attained (v. 22; 2:7; Matt. 19:16, 29; Mark 10:17, 30; Luke 10:25; 18:18; John 12:25, 26; Gal. 6:8). Thus we learn from the Bible that eternal life is not simply a static entity. It is a dynamic and growing relationship with Jesus Christ Himself (see John 10:10; 17:3). Through living in faith and obedience, Christians can fully enjoy God's free gift of eternal life.
By Pastor Chuck Smith

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Mr Drew. This verse is for you. If you knew Jesus you would not be asking these silly questions. :wink:


John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Mr Drew. You to can have eternal Life instead of eternal wrath :wink:


1 John 3:15
3:15 eternal life abiding in him: Those who do not love their fellow Christians are not living in the light but instead are living in the darkness (2:11). They are not abiding in life but in death (v. 14). What they are doing is not of God but of the devil (v. 8). Eternal life is not abiding in these believers in the sense that it is not the controlling factor in their lives.
By pastor chuck smith

Mr Drew. God is speaking to you. Listen for his voice.

 

[Oscar3]

Hello jgredline:

Here are some texts that I believe express the position that the lost ultimately cease to exist:

Romans 6:23
John 3:16
John 3:36
1 John 3:15

I know that you will claim that "death" means something other than extinction of the entire person - and the dance continues......

Goodness . This post is still going.

Romans 6:23
6:23 Paul explains that sin results in death, but God gives the gift of eternal life. Most often this verse has been used as a promise of regeneration. The phrase eternal life is used 42 times in the New Testament, and it usually refers to something we receive as a gift at the moment of belief in the gospel (John 3:16; 5:24; 6:40). But 11 of these 42 times, eternal life is presented as something to be attained (v. 22; 2:7; Matt. 19:16, 29; Mark 10:17, 30; Luke 10:25; 18:18; John 12:25, 26; Gal. 6:8). Thus we learn from the Bible that eternal life is not simply a static entity. It is a dynamic and growing relationship with Jesus Christ Himself (see John 10:10; 17:3). Through living in faith and obedience, Christians can fully enjoy God's free gift of eternal life.
By Pastor Chuck Smith

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Mr Drew. This verse is for you. If you knew Jesus you would not be asking these silly questions. :wink:


John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Mr Drew. You to can have eternal Life instead of eternal wrath :wink:


1 John 3:15
3:15 eternal life abiding in him: Those who do not love their fellow Christians are not living in the light but instead are living in the darkness (2:11). They are not abiding in life but in death (v. 14). What they are doing is not of God but of the devil (v. 8). Eternal life is not abiding in these believers in the sense that it is not the controlling factor in their lives.
By pastor chuck smith

Mr Drew. God is speaking to you. Listen for his voice.

 

[CP_Mike]

CP
I know this this post was directed at atonement, but in reading this, I saw a few things that raised some red flags. Rather than assume something that may not be true, I tought I would ask you about them.

Do you believe in the trinity? By the sound of this post, my guess is no.
so are you a Trinitarian ?

I believe in the triunity of God, where God the Father, God the son and God the Holy spirit are each God and I believe in one God.

If you answer yes, then do you believe Jesus is God? or do you hold to modalism?

Jesus is God, he clearly linked himself to the God of Israel by stating "I AM"
No, I am not a modalist. What about you? What do you believe?

Now you say and I quote ''superimpose the Greek meanings onto an essentially Hebrew bible!

Can you elaborate more on this please.

With please.

You cannot say that a soul has a separate existence to the body after death and is the "mind" of the person. That is the Greek view and was never the Hebrew view.

Also you guys throw out this dualistic pagan greek theology out, and quite frankly in doing some research its seems to me that only Moromons, JW, and 7th day folks use this in thier writings. This seems to be how they explain away what the actual Greek means. It sounds like what you are saying over and over again is that God made a mistake in choosing the Greek language to express himself in word. :o

So this is why I am asking. Please don't give me a cut and paste job, answer in your own words.

This view is not just with the Mormons, JWs and 7th day Adventists, this is also now what I am telling you being taught in the Anglican church, free evengelical churches, Spurgeon Bible college at Theological colleges here in the UK and other places.

Here is one such place and please check their statement of faith and note their links

http://www.workshop.org.uk

 

[Jay T]

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

 

[Jay T]

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

 

[jgredline]

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

JT
Are you saying that you believe in annihalation?

 

[carey]

LUKE 16:22–28
Because this passage so obviously supports the idea of conscious existence after deathâ€â€as well as conscious suffering for the wicked following deathâ€â€the Jehovah’s Witnesses, 7th day adventist and other cults go to great lengths to reinterpret it.

They argue that “the rich man represents the religious leaders who are favored with spiritual privileges and opportunities, and Lazarus pictures the common people who hunger for spiritual nourishment.â€Â

They say that “since the rich man and Lazarus are not literal persons but symbolize classes of people, logically their deaths are also symbolic.†Their “deaths†symbolize dying to their former circumstances. In God’s program, the “repentant Lazarus class dies to their former spiritually deprived condition and come into a position of divine favor.â€Â

By contrast, “those who make up the rich-man class come under divine disfavor because of persistently refusing to accept the kingdom message taught by Jesus.†The “torment†referred to in this passage is the pain caused on evil people by the righteous message of Jesus and his disciples.


If people at death simply lapse into a state of unconsciousness, then Jesus’ comments in this passage lose their meaning. The elaborate reinterpretation offered by the Watchtower Society and other cukts completely crosses the boundary of credulity.

Scholars have noted that whenever Jesus taught, he provided examples from real-life situations. For example, he spoke of a treasure buried in a field, a wedding feast, a man working in a vineyard, a woman sweeping her house, a shepherd watching his sheep, and a son returning home after squandering money.

Jesus never illustrated a teaching with a falsehood. This being the case, we must conclude that in Luke 16 Jesus is giving a teaching based on a “real-life†situationâ€â€involving conscious existence after death. Certainly the verse is in perfect harmony with other verses that teach conscious existence in the afterlife (see Luke 23:46; Acts 7:59; 2 Cor. 5:6–8; Phil. 1:21–23; 1 Thess. 4:13–17; Rev. 6:9–10).

Jesus never calls this real story a “parable,†and unlike parables, which never use real names, Jesus used a real name (Lazarus) of a person.


Any Comments and I will gladly accept Amens.

Well we know ecclesiastes 9 :5tell us the dead have no consciousness.
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.


We know the Bible does not contardict itself ever.
So how do we explain the story of Lazarous??
I think Jesus was talking about the conversation they will have in the fiture resurrection if it is literal.
But the NIV makes it seem to bew a parable

The Parable of the Shrewd Manager
1Jesus told his disciples: "There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. 2So he called him in and asked him, 'What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your management, because you cannot be manager any longer.'
3"The manager said to himself, 'What shall I do now? My master is taking away my job. I'm not strong enough to dig, and I'm ashamed to beg 4I know what I'll do so that, when I lose my job here, people will welcome me into their houses.'

5"So he called in each one of his master's debtors. He asked the first, 'How much do you owe my master?'

6" 'Eight hundred gallons[a] of olive oil,' he replied.
"The manager told him, 'Take your bill, sit down quickly, and make it four hundred.'

7"Then he asked the second, 'And how much do you owe?'
" 'A thousand bushels of wheat,' he replied.
"He told him, 'Take your bill and make it eight hundred.'

8"The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. 9I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

10"Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. 11So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? 12And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else's property, who will give you property of your own?

13"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."

14The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.

Additional Teachings
16"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
18"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

The Rich Man and Lazarus
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

We also know the Bible says there are only 2 resurrections

Revelations 20 : 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Now the time when jesus said to the thief
verily I say unto you today you will be with me in paradise.
It depends on where the translator puts the comma.

Verily I say unto you today, you WILL be with me in Paradise.

or

Verily I say unto you, TODAY you will be with me in Paradise.

Intersting huh??

The original language it was written in did not have punctuation.

And we know ecclesiastes cannot be contradicted.
Where should the comma go??

 

[Drew]

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Mr Drew. This verse is for you. If you knew Jesus you would not be asking these silly questions.

Man, you certainly are a trip.....

 

[CP_Mike]

JT
Are you saying that you believe in annihalation?

Whats your take on Ezekiel 18:4, JG?

Come to think of it, that verse does not fit into your theology!

 

[jgredline]

Whats your take on Ezekiel 18:4, JG?

Come to think of it, that verse does not fit into your theology!

Well to quote, well umm me.


Eze 18:4
4 “Behold, all souls are bMine; The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. nkjv

Eze 18:20
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

John. A little history first.
The The people of Judah had a proverb which blamed their sins on the failure of their ancestors: Keep in mind that a proverb is nothing more than a saying.
“The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge.â€Â

God refutes the proverb, stating that individuals are held responsible for their own sins.
In verses 5–24 He then gives several examples of His principles of judgment:
A. A man who shuns sin and lives righteously shall surely live .
B. A righteous man’s wicked son ... shall surely die. The Jews during the captivity as well as in the Lord Jesus’ time, prided themselves on having Abraham as their father. God points out that it will do no good to have a righteous father, if their own life is wicked. people also have the tendency to rely on the spirituality of others. I see this all the time and I have done the same in my early Christian years.... But the righteous and holy life of our fathers and godly leaders must become a reality in our own lives!!!!!!
C. An unrighteous man’s righteous son ... shall surely live, but the unrighteous father ... shall die for his iniquities .
D. A wicked man who repents and turns from his sins will live.
E. A righteous man who turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity ... shall die.
By the way John, there is no contradiction between verse 20 and Exodus 20:5. It is true, as taught in Exodus, that children are generally involved in the consequences of their parents’ misdeeds. It is also true, as taught here, that each one is personally responsible for his or her actions.
In verse 20, the punishment here is temporal, not eternal. It is physical death because of sin now. In otherwords the ''SOUL'' here is speaking of a human flesh. A human being.

The principles stated in verses 5–24 are not dealing with eternal life; otherwise we would be forced to conclude that salvation is by works (verses. 5–9) and that the righteous may eventually be lost, two doctrines clearly refuted by our Lord in the NT (e.g., Eph. 2:8, 9; John 10:28). So don't try and pull this off here, it will not fly.

Now to keep with the contect of these section of scripture, lets take a very breif look at 18:25–32 The people continued to accuse God of injustice, but He shows that there is no injustice because even a wicked man can be saved by turning from his sins, and that is what the Lord wants them to do.
When God forgives, He forgets. This does not indicate a poor memory but the perfect satisfaction of His justice through the atoning work of Christ.

For the believer the case is closed.

 

[Drew]

In verse 20, the punishment here is temporal, not eternal. It is physical death because of sin now.

You claim that "in verse 20, the punishment is physical death". What is the subject that is to experience this punishment? Clearly the soul that sins. Do you not see the problem here? If the soul is an immortal entity, how is it subject to physical death? It can't be. So you must mean that the "soul" is subject to physical death - which makes the term mean what we have been asserting all along. Can you clarify, please?

 

[Solo]

Whats your take on Ezekiel 18:4, JG?

Come to think of it, that verse does not fit into your theology!

As the following verse does not fit into yours theology.

8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both. 9 And there arose a great cry: and the scribes that were of the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God. Acts 23:8-9

 

[jgredline]

You claim that "in verse 20, the punishment is physical death". What is the subject that is to experience this punishment? Clearly the soul that sins. Do you not see the problem here? If the soul is an immortal entity, how is it subject to physical death? It can't be. So you must mean that the "soul" is subject to physical death - which makes the term mean what we have been asserting all along. Can you clarify, please?

Drew
Go back and read my post. I cleared it up for you.
Thanks javier

 

[Drew]

In verse 20, the punishment here is temporal, not eternal. It is physical death because of sin now. In otherwords the ''SOUL'' here is speaking of a human flesh. A human being.

I certainly agree with your reworded statement.