What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Does the human soul consciously exist following death

jgredline wrote:
In verse 20, the punishment here is temporal, not eternal. It is physical death because of sin now. In otherwords the ''SOUL'' here is speaking of a human flesh. A human being.
Click to expand...

Drew said:
I certainly agree with your reworded statement.
Click to expand...

It is all a matter of context.. Ashes to ashes and dust to dust.
Not until the great white thrown judgement do these ashes and dust get reunited with their ''soul'' It is at this time that they get sentenced to eternal life in torment along with the devil and his angels.... :smt074
 
jgredline said:
It is all a matter of context.. Ashes to ashes and dust to dust.
Not until the great white thrown judgement do these ashes and dust get reunited with their ''soul'' It is at this time that they get sentenced to eternal life in torment along with the devil and his angels.... :smt074
Click to expand...

Man, jg, I wish you'd use a smaller font.

The problem with this assertion is that it is completely void of biblical support. Even if you wanted to interpret 1 Thessalonians 4:14,15 to mean that 'God brings with Him' the souls of the departed to reunite with their immortal bodies, nowhere does it say in the entirety of scripture this occurs for the wicked.

So how exactly can 'bodies' though inhabited by an 'immortal spirit' burn for eternity? Atonement never answered this and I would like you to not only answer this, but please give biblical support.
 
Solo said:
As the following verse does not fit into yours theology.

8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both. 9 And there arose a great cry: and the scribes that were of the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God. Acts 23:8-9
Click to expand...

Hey Solo,
I am not a Saducee. I believe in the resurrection unlike you who believes Plato that the soul is immortal and therefore resurrection is unnecessary.

So Solo, believe God and accept the truth. It is resurrection, not immortality of the soul,
 
CP_Mike said:
Hey Solo,
I am not a Saducee. I believe in the resurrection unlike you who believes Plato that the soul is immortal and therefore resurrection is unnecessary.

So Solo, believe God and accept the truth. It is resurrection, not immortality of the soul,
Click to expand...
The resurrection is for the body. The body returns to the dust of the earth from whence it comes. The soul goes to hell or paradise, while the spirit goes to God. You will see one day. Hopefully it will be before it is too late. The Sadduccees did not believe in the spirit apart from the body as well, nor did they believe in angels. As you, they believed that they were right.
  • 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Corinthians 15:50
Since the flesh and blood do not enter into heaven, what are those souls who are under the altar in heaven as recorded in Revelation?
  • 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Revelation 6:9-11
The first resurrection described in 1 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians has not taken place yet.
  • 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Corinthians 15:51-54

    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
Many, many Christians have been persecuted and murdered from the first century on to today. It appears that these souls are those that have died and are taken into paradise across the gulf from hell as Jesus describes concerning Lazarus in Luke 16.
  • 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke 16:22-31
 
jgredline said:
JT
Are you saying that you believe in annihalation?
Click to expand...
When the Bible says it, I believe it.....Yes.

Jesus Christ died the 2nd death, which was total separation from God.

And, Had He committed any sin in HIS life while on earth, that separation would have been permanent !

BUT, since HE did not commit any sin, not even by a thought, death could not hold HIM permanetly, in the grave.

Thus it will be with us, on resurrection morning, if there is any sin not confessed and forsaken, we will not rise to eternal life when Jesus returns to this earth.

Eternal life is not promised to those, who have not confessed and forsaken any and all their sins, while living upon this present earth.

God WILL NOT....allow anyone into heaven who does not understand what the Bible defines, as sin.

4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee....seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God..."
 
jgredline said:
JT
Are you saying that you believe in annihalation?
Click to expand...
Since the Bible said it, I believe it, yes.

The Modern Christian world has no idea how offensive sin is, to a HOLY GOD !

We tend to look at it as no big deal.
BUT, we need to look at it, as God looks at it.

Immortality (eternal life) was promised them on condition of obedience; by transgression they would forfeit eternal life.
That very day they would be doomed to death.



The tide of woe that flowed from the transgression of our first parents is regarded by many as too awful a consequence for so small a sin, and they impeach the wisdom and justice of God in His dealings with man.

But if they would look more deeply into this question, they might discern their error. God created man after His own likeness, free from sin. The earth was to be peopled with beings only a little lower than the angels; but their obedience must be tested; for God would not permit the world to be filled with those who would disregard His law.

Yet, in His great mercy, He appointed Adam no severe test.

And the very lightness of the prohibition made the sin exceedingly great. If Adam could not bear the smallest of tests, he could not have endured a greater trial had he been entrusted with higher responsibilities.


Had some great test been appointed Adam, then those whose hearts incline to evil would have excused themselves by saying, "This is a trivial matter, and God is not so particular about little things."

And there would be continual transgression in things looked upon as small, and which pass unrebuked among men.

But, the Lord has made it evident that sin in any degree is offensive to Him.
 
Jay T said:
Since the Bible said it, I believe it, yes.
Click to expand...

Jat T
While I am no expert on this stuff you are talking about I do know a hypocrite when I see one..

When you joined this forum you agreed with the foollowing statements, and this is only a small part of the statement of faith. While I believe that seeing these other guys like drew, gubox, cp, sput are also breaking this very rule, they are here as outsiders causing trouble and keeping the real Christians from posting. Most people don't like to argue and everything that they do turns into an argument against what most people believe.

You on the other hand are a moderator. As a moderator you are a part of the leader ship here on this board, as the statement of belief says.

By being a leader, you are supposed to be above reproach. You talk about a HOLY GOD, in your post , yet you are commiting the sin of lying to us by agreeing that you believe that hell is an eternal place of torment forever and then with your other face you say it is not.

Here is what you said The Modern Christian world has no idea how offensive sin is, to a HOLY GOD !

We tend to look at it as no big deal.
BUT, we need to look at it, as God looks at it.
Click to expand...

Do you see as lying to us forum members as no big deal?

You need to repent of your false teachings and belief, or give up your position as a moderator. It really comes down to that.

I can only hope that an admin will see this post and take the appropriate action, because if you don't resighn and they let you go on as mod, then they will need to change their statement of beliefs or they to will become like you. I believe that you or they will do the right thing.



This is the Statement of Faith of our forums, and of our leadership.

Judy
123 Christian Administrator
Joined: 03 Nov 2002
Posts: 4629
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:23 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Doctrinal Statement
We believe in a personal devil, called Satan, who, along with all his angels, called demons or evil spirits, are destined to spend eternity in hell, and now seek to deceive the world, defeat the believers, and destroy the work of God, but can be resisted by believers, who are protected by God and the intercession of Jesus Christ our Lord.

We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever, and that hell is a literal place of torment where unbelievers will suffer forever.
 
I think the administrators and moderators are in a difficult position. They see the annihilation position being defended Biblically, and with sound arguments. They see some of the proponents of the "eternal hell" position engaging in the usual tired acts rhetorical accusations - you are a liar, you are of the devil, etc.

And yet there is the rule.....

I suspect that the moderators / administrators have enough sense to realize that to suppress this debate, when the annihilation supporters have, for the most part, behaved themselves so well, will smack of endorement of a position simply by censoring opposing views.

And they probably do not want to go down that road - they will be seen as tactitly approving of the tactics of those who seek to demonize their opposition when they are badly outdone in fair and reasonable debate.
 
Drew
Its not difficult as I explained.
This is a black and white issue. He is living in sin or he is not.
If he is a Christian then the HS will convict him for baring false witness and living this lie in this forum. It is that simple.
 
oscar3 said:
Drew
Its not difficult as I explained.
This is a black and white issue. He is living in sin or he is not.
If he is a Christian then the HS will convict him for baring false witness and living this lie in this forum. It is that simple.
Click to expand...

That depends if the HS agrees with the forum statements!
 
Goodness,
Well, I could only speak for myself here, but if I were to violate or speak against any of the TOS because of my beliefs I would definitely give up my Mod position. In fact before I agreed to accept this position I read over the statement of beliefs took a week to pray about it, and looked it over to be sure it was in agreement as to what I believe..

Jesus warned us about this when he said a Kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.

This is a bad postion for me or the admins or other mods to be in because we are supposed to be on the same page atleast to what the TOS and the SOB say.....
 
Solo said:
The resurrection is for the body. The body returns to the dust of the earth from whence it comes. The soul goes to hell or paradise,
while the spirit goes to God. You will see one day. Hopefully it will be before it is too late. The Sadduccees did not believe in the spirit apart from the body as well, nor did they believe in angels. As you, they believed that they were right.
  • 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Corinthians 15:50
Since the flesh and blood do not enter into heaven, what are those souls who are under the altar in heaven as recorded in Revelation?
  • 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Revelation 6:9-11
The first resurrection described in 1 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians has not taken place yet.
  • 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Corinthians 15:51-54

    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
Many, many Christians have been persecuted and murdered from the first century on to today. It appears that these souls are those that have died and are taken into paradise across the gulf from hell as Jesus describes concerning Lazarus in Luke 16.
  • 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke 16:22-31
Click to expand...

Here is a commentary on Rev 6:9 which blows your interpreation of Rev 6:9

http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/c ... q=i.73.6.6
 
To the ones who are concerned about TOS and SOB. Do you go "oh my, the democratic party is in rule. I don't agree with their beliefs. I am going to give up my citizenship to this country and find a country which suits me"??? I mean seriously.

It is silliness to ask a moderator to resign because he doesn't share some of the Statement of beliefs. To do this is to completely misunderstand what the JOB DESCRIPTION of being a moderator is.

If a moderator is well capable of over-looking the threads and maintaining harmony on the forum then I don't see a problem if he is an atheist or an agnost or a Christian, as long as the job of the moderation gets done. To sound alarms because one particular theology doesn't set right and asking a moderator to quit his/her position is at best childish.
 
TanNinety said:
To the ones who are concerned about TOS and SOB. Do you go "oh my, the democratic party is in rule. I don't agree with their beliefs. I am going to give up my citizenship to this country and find a country which suits me"??? I mean seriously.

It is silliness to ask a moderator to resign because he doesn't share some of the Statement of beliefs. To do this is to completely misunderstand what the JOB DESCRIPTION of being a moderator is.

If a moderator is well capable of over-looking the threads and maintaining harmony on the forum then I don't see a problem if he is an atheist or an agnost or a Christian, as long as the job of the moderation gets done. To sound alarms because one particular theology doesn't set right and asking a moderator to quit his/her position is at best childish.
Click to expand...

Well, it WAS Oscar who raised this issue ... :D

Just joshing, Oscar.
 
 
oscar3 said:
Do you see as lying to us forum members as no big deal?
Click to expand...
Wherein have I lied ?
[qquote]
You need to repent of your false teachings and belief, or give up your position as a moderator. It really comes down to that.[/quote]
Show me where I am wrong, regarding the teachings from the Bible.
I can only hope that an admin will see this post and take the appropriate action, because if you don't resighn and they let you go on as mod, then they will need to change their statement of beliefs or they to will become like you.
Click to expand...
My job assigned to me by God is this:

Ezekiel 33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked [man], thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
33:9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

I believe that you or they will do the right thing.[/size]
I have been banned before, from many different so-called Christian forums for teaching exactly what the Bible says....
Matthew 5:10 Blessed [are] they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

[quote:07dcf]This is the Statement of Faith of our forums, and of our leadership.

Doctrinal Statement
We believe in a personal devil, called Satan, who, along with all his angels, called demons or evil spirits, are destined to spend eternity in hell, and now seek to deceive the world, defeat the believers, and destroy the work of God, but can be resisted by believers, who are protected by God and the intercession of Jesus Christ our Lord.

We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever, and that hell is a literal place of torment where unbelievers will suffer forever.
Click to expand...
[/quote:07dcf]
My belief in hellfire is exactly, what the Bible teaches.....
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
QUESTION: Where is Sodom and Gormorrha burning today ?

Did you know that where those cities were, there is standing 3 feet of water over them ....at the end of the Dead Sea ?

It is their destruction that is eternal, not the fire themselves.


Also, another thought.....How can anyone be in hell right now , at this moment, without having gone thru the Judgment Day of God ...FIRST ?

Jesus Christ said: Revelation 22:12 "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be".

UNTIL....Jesus Christ comes ....FIRST....to give every man their reward ( for eternal life or eternal death), how can anyone be in hell ?
 
--General talk??--

oscar3
123 Christian Regular

Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 298
Location: San Jose
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:15 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jay T wrote:

Since the Bible said it, I believe it, yes.

Oscar3 wrote: Jat T
While I am no expert on this stuff you are talking about I do know a hypocrite when I see one..

When you joined this forum you agreed with the foollowing statements, and this is only a small part of the statement of faith. While I believe that seeing these other guys like drew, gubox, cp, sput are also breaking this very rule, they are here as outsiders causing trouble and keeping the real Christians from posting. Most people don't like to argue and everything that they do turns into an argument against what most people believe.

You on the other hand are a moderator. As a moderator you are a part of the leader ship here on this board, as the statement of belief says.

By being a leader, you are supposed to be above reproach. You talk about a HOLY GOD, in your post , yet you are commiting the sin of lying to us by agreeing that you believe that hell is an eternal place of torment forever and then with your other face you say it is not.

******
John here: Logan, Judy, Vic,
seeing that this person has not only documented a 'libelous' personal attack, & that even openly against one of your 'mods' .. as in the breaking of your site rules. He has also broken the 'law of Caesar'.

alone without killing people! Romans 1:28-32.

For me to stay around here, (who cares :wink: ) I need this stuff stopped! And if you agree that he is right about your 'Church Board requirements', then, I being a Christian, will abide by my personal convictions.

And seeing that this is being done here openly, I would like a open printed answer. J/t/B/
 
Re: --General talk??--

John the Baptist said:
oscar3
123 Christian Regular

Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 298
Location: San Jose
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:15 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jay T wrote:

Since the Bible said it, I believe it, yes.

Oscar3 wrote: Jat T
While I am no expert on this stuff you are talking about I do know a hypocrite when I see one..

When you joined this forum you agreed with the foollowing statements, and this is only a small part of the statement of faith. While I believe that seeing these other guys like drew, gubox, cp, sput are also breaking this very rule, they are here as outsiders causing trouble and keeping the real Christians from posting. Most people don't like to argue and everything that they do turns into an argument against what most people believe.

You on the other hand are a moderator. As a moderator you are a part of the leader ship here on this board, as the statement of belief says.

By being a leader, you are supposed to be above reproach. You talk about a HOLY GOD, in your post , yet you are commiting the sin of lying to us by agreeing that you believe that hell is an eternal place of torment forever and then with your other face you say it is not.

******
John here: Logan, Judy, Vic,
seeing that this person has not only documented a 'libelous' personal attack, & that even openly against one of your 'mods' .. as in the breaking of your site rules. He has also broken the 'law of Caesar'.

alone without killing people! Romans 1:28-32.

For me to stay around here, (who cares :wink: ) I need this stuff stopped! And if you agree that he is right about your 'Church Board requirements', then, I being a Christian, will abide by my personal convictions.

And seeing that this is being done here openly, I would like a open printed answer. J/t/B/
Click to expand...


I stand by what I said..
If they want to ban me from the site, then so be it. All I have done is speak the truth. For some the truth hurts.

What makes this differant is that JAY T is a moderator. He is supposed to be in agreement with the Statment of beliefs and the TOS. If he who is a Mod can't keep to those standards then what will give him the right or any other mod the right to rebulke me for calling someone a child of satan?

You see john, this has nothing to do with what the bible says. This has to do with the TOS. I am not saying he should be kicked out of the site, but he should be removed from his Mod position.

Am I saying that Drew, CP, SPUT, YOU be kicked off even though they believe the same? No. The differance is that none of them and you are mods.

It will be interesting to see what the other mods and the admins have to say about this.

Like I said, I stand by my original post.
 
Oscar, I see that you bring your presumptuous attitude to deal with anything in life and not just the scriptures.

What makes this differant is that JAY T is a moderator. He is supposed to be in agreement with the Statment of beliefs and the TOS.
Click to expand...
I don’t think you have the universal standards rule book for what a moderator is supposed to be, do you? What you have stated is purely opinion on what YOU think a moderator should be. Don’t think you can force your opinion onto the site admins. Do you think they have made Jay T a moderator without carefully observing his posts and the way he conducts himself around the forum and judge his competency in establishing some harmony on the threads? If the admins considered you the beacon of light and mouthpiece that voices the truth and love, they will soon make you a moderator, may be until then you need to take a seat and relax and let the real slim shady please stand up.

If he who is a Mod can't keep to those standards then what will give him the right or any other mod the right to rebulke me for calling someone a child of satan?
Click to expand...
First of, please do not esteem yourself in ANY manner to be co-equal with Yeshua that you can call someone a child of satan and pass judgment of eternal hell over them. It is not your place, when God decides to let you sit on the white throne of judgment, then surely then you can have your 15 minutes of fame. You need to get out of your RCC mentality where you constantly need someone in power with the same theology so every time there is a contrary belief being supported biblically, then this power can be used to quiet the discussion. Oh, but you cry foul over the ever so atrocities of the RCC using power to mitigate protestants.

You see john, this has nothing to do with what the bible says. This has to do with the TOS. I am not saying he should be kicked out of the site, but he should be removed from his Mod position.
Click to expand...
When you have your own site launched and operate it, make your own rules. Until then let the thread be on topic and discuss things with scripture. Please!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top