Does the human soul consciously exist following death

[CP_Mike]

LOL
Cp, you make no sense at all. First, your interpretaion of soul is false, or I should say atleast mostly false.

OK In Lev 17:11 it is speaking of flesh and bones

Absolutely not! The word 'nephesh' appears in ths verse so lets spell it out for you.

Leviticus 17:11..for the 'nephesh' (usually translated life correctly, because that what 'soul' in the bible means) is in the blood.

Are you saying the writer is wrong?

In 1 kings the passage speaks of the imaterial part of man, not the blood. From your interpretation you are saying she bleed out and then her blood went back in? Can you see how coo coo this looks :o If that was the case, the bible would have said it.
Dude, Go back and read what you posted. You look very foolish right now :

Don't call me foolish when you yourself have admitted that you are ignorant of the scriptures. The verse literally means her 'nephesh' was going. But not somewhere else.

 

[CP_Mike]

CP
Oscar is right in his reponse to you....The word Soul has two differant meanings there.....

Sorry JG, but soul here means life in both cases. The Hebrews had no notion of an immaterial nephesh

 

[jgredline]

CP
You are mistaken my friend. Simply look at the context....
Guibox says that Youngs has the ''correct'' translation of nephesh and that all others are wrong. So I went and purchased one and guess what? Its is extremely vague....It in no way supports what you guys are saying or trying to pass off as correct. Well, I brought my youngs analytical concordance to work with me today to scan the page. As soon as I scan it, I will post it. It will be sometime today.

Where are you getting your definition of nephesh from?

 

[Drew]

Someone quoted John 11:25-26 apparently to support the argument that a conscious soul (or spirit) survives physical death. Here is the text:

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

I think that a contradiction is created if we assume that the first reference to "death" ("even if he dies") and the second ("...never die) are taken to both mean death in the sense of what happens to us after threescore and ten years. Reason: The first reference clearly establishes that believer can die, while the second reference says that they cannot. so they cannot be referring to the same event.

I think the appropriate interpretation is as follows: "Even though a believer can die as a whole person (not the body dying but the soul living), that whole person will indeed live again in the future via the resurrection and will never die from that point forward.

So I see this text as being entirely consistent with the view that its "lights out" for all of us until we are resurrected. The believers will be resurrected and will not die from that resurrected state.

 

[jgredline]

Someone quoted John 11:25-26 apparently to support the argument that a conscious soul (or spirit) survives physical death. Here is the text:

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

I think that a contradiction is created if we assume that the first reference to "death" ("even if he dies") and the second ("...never die) are taken to both mean death in the sense of what happens to us after threescore and ten years. Reason: The first reference clearly establishes that believer can die, while the second reference says that they cannot. so they cannot be referring to the same event.

I think the appropriate interpretation is as follows: "Even though a believer can die as a whole person (not the body dying but the soul living), that whole person will indeed live again in the future via the resurrection and will never die from that point forward.

So I see this text as being entirely consistent with the view that its "lights out" for all of us until we are resurrected. The believers will be resurrected and will not die from that resurrected state.

Drew
What happens to the un-believers?

 

[CP_Mike]

CP
You are mistaken my friend. Simply look at the context....
Guibox says that Youngs has the ''correct'' translation of nephesh and that all others are wrong. So I went and purchased one and guess what? Its is extremely vague....It in no way supports what you guys are saying or trying to pass off as correct. Well, I brought my youngs analytical concordance to work with me today to scan the page. As soon as I scan it, I will post it. It will be sometime today.

Where are you getting your definition of nephesh from?

Since you ask:

Nephesh - Psyche - Soul
The important passage in Genesis 2:7 sets the scene for this 'window - word' into the nature of personhood. An individual becomes a 'nephesh' from the infusion of divine breath into moulded dust. In physical terms 'nephesh' means, 'neck', 'throat', 'gullet' and came to mean 'life', that 'vital motion' which distinguishes a living being from a corpse.
'Nephesh' has such a variety of senses that we must make a careful definition in each particular case. Meanings overlap and are used side by side. It is easy to end up with contradictory statements about 'nephesh'. Here are some of the central statements about 'nephesh':-
• it is that vital life which is shared by both humans and animals [Gen 2:19].
• it is life that is bound up with the body, blood is the vehicle of nephesh [Dt 12:23], at death it dies [Nu 23:10] draining away with the blood, with resuscitation it 'returns'; not that it has gone anywhere.
• it can denote 'the living individual themselves' [Gen 14:21], and can replace the personal pronoun to create special emphasis [Ps 42:6], God uses it of himself [Am 6:8].
• it is strongly instinctive [animal] activity; desire, vital urge, feeling, emotion, mood [Dt 14:26].
• it is feelings and emotions of a spiritual kind; grief, pain, joy, peace, love [Ezk 27:31]; its highest expression is longing for God [Ps 25:1].
The New Testament uses the Greek 'psyche' with the sense of the Hebrew 'nephesh'. Paul's writings are significant for how rarely he uses it. The Synoptics are interesting in that one third of their usage refers to life beyond death [Mt 10:28,39; 16:25-26; Mk 8:35-37; Lk 9:24; 21:19], due to the overlap of present and future in the Kingdom of God; revolutionary in terms of its Hebrew roots.
This 'nephesh' is primarily the life of the whole person in terms of strongly instinctive [animal] activity. It reflects the glory and richness of God's gift of life to him though susceptible to death. It is not an independent substance which, as many have argued, survives death. It is, as we shall see a highly complex image very easy to misinterpret.

From "workshop"

And for an exhaustive study on 'Nephesh', one has to go to
http://www.drhoff.com/Writings/writings.htm

 

[CP_Mike]

Drew
What happens to the un-believers?

They will be resurrected on the last day and be judged. Physical death is not extinction.

 

[jgredline]

CP
LOL...You are basing your theology on somebodys ''workshop'' notes?

Since you ask:

Nephesh - Psyche - Soul
The important passage in Genesis 2:7 sets the scene for this 'window - word' into the nature of personhood. An individual becomes a 'nephesh' from the infusion of divine breath into moulded dust. In physical terms 'nephesh' means, 'neck', 'throat', 'gullet' and came to mean 'life', that 'vital motion' which distinguishes a living being from a corpse.
'Nephesh' has such a variety of senses that we must make a careful definition in each particular case. Meanings overlap and are used side by side. It is easy to end up with contradictory statements about 'nephesh'. Here are some of the central statements about 'nephesh':-
• it is that vital life which is shared by both humans and animals [Gen 2:19].
• it is life that is bound up with the body, blood is the vehicle of nephesh [Dt 12:23], at death it dies [Nu 23:10] draining away with the blood, with resuscitation it 'returns'; not that it has gone anywhere.
• it can denote 'the living individual themselves' [Gen 14:21], and can replace the personal pronoun to create special emphasis [Ps 42:6], God uses it of himself [Am 6:8].
• it is strongly instinctive [animal] activity; desire, vital urge, feeling, emotion, mood [Dt 14:26].
• it is feelings and emotions of a spiritual kind; grief, pain, joy, peace, love [Ezk 27:31]; its highest expression is longing for God [Ps 25:1].
The New Testament uses the Greek 'psyche' with the sense of the Hebrew 'nephesh'. Paul's writings are significant for how rarely he uses it. The Synoptics are interesting in that one third of their usage refers to life beyond death [Mt 10:28,39; 16:25-26; Mk 8:35-37; Lk 9:24; 21:19], due to the overlap of present and future in the Kingdom of God; revolutionary in terms of its Hebrew roots.
This 'nephesh' is primarily the life of the whole person in terms of strongly instinctive [animal] activity. It reflects the glory and richness of God's gift of life to him though susceptible to death. It is not an independent substance which, as many have argued, survives death. It is, as we shall see a highly complex image very easy to misinterpret.

From "workshop"

And for an exhaustive study on 'Nephesh', one has to go to
http://www.drhoff.com/Writings/writings.htm

CP
iF you look down below there are some notes from a differant ''workbook''..
It was put together by some guy who is not a theologian. Its just some guys notes....The definition below would be an accurate definiton of nephesh.....

Here is another definition of nephesh
1. Scripture Uses “Soul†and “Spirit†Interchangeably. When we look at the usage of the biblical words translated “soul†(Heb. נֶפֶשׁ, , and Gk. ψυχή, ) and “spirit†(Heb. רוּחַ, , and Gk. πνεῦμα,)

Meanings of these words. These words can mean the following depending on the context in which the word is used.

In physical terms 'nephesh' means, 'neck', 'throat', 'gullet' and limbs…’’a corpse’’

In spiritual terms ‘’nephesh’’ means mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion, the inner being of man, seat of emotions and passions, activity of mind, the vital principle in man. It also denotes the rational, immortal soul by which man is distinguished,

Man Is Either ¢â‚¬Å“Body and Soul†or “Body and Spirit, but not body and body



Source
‘’Workbook of the Pacific’’

 

[jgredline]

CP
I just finished browsing DR. Tory Hoffs web site and while he does seem to do good works for people he is a Phsychologist, ''NOT A THEOLOGIAN''

 

[jgredline]

CP
Here is how the New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries : Updated Edition: translates ''nephesh''

5315 נֶפֶשׁ (nephesh)
5315. נֶפֶשׁ nephesh (659b); from an unused word; a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion : any(1), anyone(2), anyone*(1), appetite(7), being(1), beings(3), body(1), breath(1), corpse(2), creature(6), creatures(3), dead(1), dead person(2), deadly(1), death(1), defenseless*(1), desire(12), desire*(2), discontented*(1), endure*(1), feelings(1), fierce*(2), greedy*(1), heart(5), heart’s(2), herself(12), Himself(4), himself(19), human(1), human being(1), hunger(1), life(146), life*(1), lifeblood*(2), lives(34), living creature(1), longing*(1), man(4), man’s(1), men*(2), mind(2), Myself(3), myself(2), number(1), ones(1), others(1), ourselves(3), own(1), passion*(1), people(2), people*(1), perfume*(1), person(68), person*(1), persons(19), slave(1), some(1), soul(238), soul’s(1), souls(12), strength(1), themselves(6), thirst(1), throat(2), will(1), wish(1), wishes(1), yourself(11), yourselves(13).


So CP, Drew and Guibox
I guess these folks are wrong also ha? :

For the record, youngs also backs what I have been saying along with others here....

Well, its lunch time so I will have some :

 

[CP_Mike]

JG,
If you look at the reference for Dr. Tory Hoff, he is quoting theologians. You are not a theologian. Also here are the credentials for "workshop". You will notice the endorsements and the backing which you do not have.

http://www.workshop.org.uk/committee/

http://www.workshop.org.uk/whatpeoplesay1/

So, since you are not a theologian, and Dr.Tory Hoff is quoting theologians, what does that make of your position?

 

[jgredline]

CP AND Guibox

Here is a scan from Youngs. It too backs up what I have been saying...

 

[jgredline]

CP
I have never claimed to be a theologian nor do I want to be a theologian. I am very much an average Joe who has a pretty good understanding of the bible thanks the Holy Spirit....I am bright enough to know how to research things and how to come to my own conclusions. The ''websites'' you quoted are mearly some folks expressing opinions and if you consider the source, you should know better than to quote them.... I have provided you with actual definitions of this word nephesh that you are hung up on.

You have yet to Provide any credible scource for the definition nephesh. When I say source, I mean an unbaised source to be clear.

I have provided you with definitions from
Easton’s Bible Dictionary
Enhanced Strong's Lexicon
The New Strong's Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek Words
Vines Lexicon
New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries : Updated Edition
and Youngs Lexicon that guibox said supports your view, which it clearly does not....

How many more do you want?

All of these have this word Nephesh as meaning more than a flesh and bones.....

I would suggest you forward these definitions to Tory Holt and have him repent od his false teaching....

 

[CP_Mike]

JG,
Your scan proves everything right, but I don't read an 'immaterial substance'. Nor have you stated anywhere in any thread what was wrong with the definitions.

All along to the OP, there is no such thing as a disembodied soul in the bible and provided enough biblical texts to explain that the fundamental meaning of soul is the life of the whole person.

If you read the Dr. Tory Hoff website in its entirety, you would see the very definitions of what you scanned.

So, since I have done the theological coursework and made a special study long before I ever found this forum, I have no problem reconciling seemingly contradictory scriptures as Matthew 10:28 to Judges 16:30 and rev 6:9 to DT 12:23.

The reason I like bringing the word 'Nephesh' up is that the this Hebrew word is sometimes translated as 'soul'. I have a problem with people trying to put the Greek meaning into the original Hebrew concept of 'Nephesh'. It is comparing apples and oranges.

 

[jgredline]

JG,
Your scan proves everything right

Well, CP, THIS is the first right thing that you have said. Really, your interpretation according to everything that I shown you is false...
Why not simply admit that you are wrong and lets move on...

 

[CP_Mike]

Well, CP, THIS is the first right thing that you have said. Really, your interpretation according to everything that I shown you is false...
Why not simply admit that you are wrong and lets move on...

Sorry JG,
but I have nothing to admit that I am wrong. You still have not grasped the original Hebrew idea and still cling to the neoplatonic view. Sorry Pal, but this is where Christianity has to let go of everything pagan. Even the scan states the word 'mortal'.

Just scroll down through these google entries and you can check them out.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&sa ... soul&meta=

 

[jgredline]

Well Cp
The scan also shows the ''mind, breath, Ghost'', to name a few that proves my point.... You see the way you understand it is illogical. It makes no sense.
The fact of the matter is this...

1. Scripture Uses “Soul†and “Spirit†Interchangeably. When we look at the usage of the biblical words translated “soul†(Heb. נֶפֶשׁ, , and Gk. ψυχή, ) and “spirit†(Heb. רוּחַ, , and Gk. πνεῦμα,).... End of story

 

[Jay T]

Satan's Objective with his doctrine of the Immortal Soul, which he first introduced in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:4).......

It is not difficult for the evil angels to represent both saints and sinners who have died, and make these representations visible to human eyes.
REMEMBER......King Saul experience ?

These manifestations will be more frequent, and developments of a more startling character will appear as we near the close of time.....are there not more programs on TV (Movies) now, promoting those who have died, yet live on, as some spirit beings ?

It is Satan's most successful and fascinating delusion--one calculated to take hold of the sympathies of those who have laid their loved ones in the grave. Evil angels come in the form of those loved ones and relate incidents connected with their lives, and perform acts which they performed while living.

In this way they lead persons to believe that their dead friends are angels, hovering over them and communicating with them. These evil angels, who assume to be the deceased friends, are regarded with a certain idolatry, and with many their word has greater weight than the Word of God.

He [Satan] has power to bring before men the appearance of their departed friends. The counterfeitis perfect; the familiar look, the words, the tone, are reproduced with marvelous distinctness. . . . Many will be confronted by the spirits of devils personating beloved relatives or friends and declaring the most dangerous heresies.

These visitants will appeal to our tenderest sympathies and will work miracles to sustain their pretensions.

 

[CP_Mike]

Well Cp
The scan also shows the ''mind, breath, Ghost'', to name a few that proves my point.... You see the way you understand it is illogical. It makes no sense.
The fact of the matter is this...

1. Scripture Uses “Soul†and “Spirit†Interchangeably. When we look at the usage of the biblical words translated “soul†(Heb. נֶפֶשׁ, , and Gk. ψυχή, ) and “spirit†(Heb. רוּחַ, , and Gk. πνεῦμα,).... End of story

Hail the great theologian: JG.

Spirit and soul are used sometimes interchangeably, but not always.

Sorry pal, you have credentials in Hebrew biblical anthropology. You are falling for the very contradictions which was warned about.

'Mind' (centre of consciousness) is the heart in the bible (Hebrew 'Leb')
Spirit (hebrew Ruah) is the person open to God's influence and is never associated with blood like 'Nephesh' is.

So, please spare us the diversionary tactics and also, please note I do not see 'disembodied person' in the list of definitions.

I think you still want to cling on to the teachings of some Greek philosopher rather than believe God's word.

Once again, here are the definitions of soul, spirit and heart and how they relate to one another:

Please take the time to read and study; who knows? You might learn something!

THE PICTURE - WINDOWS Nephesh - Psyche - Soul
The important passage in Genesis 2:7 sets the scene for this 'window - word' into the nature of personhood. An individual becomes a 'nephesh' from the infusion of divine breath into moulded dust. In physical terms 'nephesh' means, 'neck', 'throat', 'gullet' and came to mean 'life', that 'vital motion' which distinguishes a living being from a corpse.
'Nephesh' has such a variety of senses that we must make a careful definition in each particular case. Meanings overlap and are used side by side. It is easy to end up with contradictory statements about 'nephesh'. Here are some of the central statements about 'nephesh':-
• it is that vital life which is shared by both humans and animals [Gen 2:19].
• it is life that is bound up with the body, blood is the vehicle of nephesh [Dt 12:23], at death it dies [Nu 23:10] draining away with the blood, with resuscitation it 'returns'; not that it has gone anywhere.
• it can denote 'the living individual themselves' [Gen 14:21], and can replace the personal pronoun to create special emphasis [Ps 42:6], God uses it of himself [Am 6:8].
• it is strongly instinctive [animal] activity; desire, vital urge, feeling, emotion, mood [Dt 14:26].
• it is feelings and emotions of a spiritual kind; grief, pain, joy, peace, love [Ezk 27:31]; its highest expression is longing for God [Ps 25:1].
The New Testament uses the Greek 'psyche' with the sense of the Hebrew 'nephesh'. Paul's writings are significant for how rarely he uses it. The Synoptics are interesting in that one third of their usage refers to life beyond death [Mt 10:28,39; 16:25-26; Mk 8:35-37; Lk 9:24; 21:19], due to the overlap of present and future in the Kingdom of God; revolutionary in terms of its Hebrew roots.
This 'nephesh' is primarily the life of the whole person in terms of strongly instinctive [animal] activity. It reflects the glory and richness of God's gift of life to him though susceptible to death. It is not an independent substance which, as many have argued, survives death. It is, as we shall see a highly complex image very easy to misinterpret.
Ruah - Pneuma - Spirit
This 'picture - window' into personhood highlights our unique relationship with God.'Ruah' has its roots in the 'wind' which emphasises both its powerful and yet subtle nature. 'Ruah' is used in a number of different contexts:-
• for the wind in nature.
• for the nature of God's being ['Spirit of God', 'Holy Spirit']; dynamic, overwhelming, at times completely dominating [Jg 6:34], the root of prophesying [ISam 10:5-6] and abnormal strength [Jg 14:6].
• for demonic activity [ISam 16:14].
• for the 'principle of life' [akin to 'nephesh' often used interchangeably]. It is the life force present everywhere; independent, universal, it does not die.
• for the vital energy dwelling within each individual, that force which affects temperament.
Human 'ruah' is more than just the natural breath we breathe [which is 'nesama']. There is a vital energy within each person which is the result of the special 'in-breathing' of God; the centre of thoughts, decisions, moods, and is the dimension of personhood most directly open to the influence of God. 'Ruah' particularly stresses:-
• the direction of the will, it is the energy behind willing and acting, that which urges good and evil [Isa 29:24; Ps 51:12].
• the deep emotions; passion [Jg 8:3], grief [Gen 26:35] zeal [Hag 1:14], often seen in the panting of excitement or distress which is different from normal breathing.
• the seat of individual moral qualities and attitudes [Ecc 7:8; Isa 57:15; Num 14:24]. Ezekiel sees the Messianic age as a period when individuals will be permeated by Yahweh's 'ruah' which in turn will renew their own [11; 19; 18:31; 36:26; 39:29]. This is one of the most important words in Paul's vocabulary with his emphasis on regeneration, sanctification, fellowship with God [Gal. 5:22-23 etc].
• the experience of being in touch with God and under God's influence. The human 'ruah' searches out God's ways [Ps 77:7; Isa 26;9], it can be stirred or hardened by God [Jer 51; 11; Dt 2:30].
'Ruah' presents us with human nature's in interplay with the nature of God. It is stressing a person open to and transmitting the life of God [Rm 8:16; ICor 2:10-11]. It has no physical 'animal' character, [never associated with blood], transcending mere desire or feeling.
Leb - Kardia - Heart
'Leb' is a 'window - word' that looks in at personhood in terms of deepest emotions and from the perspective of intellect and will. 'Leb', in some ways, draws together every spiritual process. It is'conscious spiritual activity'.
It was early recognised that emotions and intense feelings produce physical effects in the heart [slow, quick, intermittent pulse rates, sometimes strong pain]. So it has come to picture the epicentre of the human person as an emotional being. Other bodily organs have been drawn alongside to add other facets to this idea:-
• Kidneys: the unfathomable depths of an individual, centre of emotions that only God can search out and test [Jer 11:20; 12:2; Isa 29:13].
• Bowels: emotions that can be deeply agitated; seething fermenting, troubling [Job 30:27; Lam 1:20].
• Inwards-Belly: emphasising the unique character of human spiritual nature in contrast to the external world [Phil 3:19; Jn 7:38].
• Bones: the basic structural element in man; spiritually and emotionally as
well as physically [Ps 35:10; Pr 3:8], they suffer seismic shock in emotional distress [Jer 23:9].
The other very important emphasis of 'leb' is personhood in terms of their inner direction; the deliberate conscious activity of the will and the responsibility it brings.
What comes from an individuals heart is 'the distinct property of the whole person' making them responsible for it. The 'responsible will' is central to the biblical concept of the 'heart'. Making God's will our own requires a new heart [Ezk 36:26].
Paul in his writings uses 'kardia' with all the senses of the Hebrew 'leb', but enlarges it by the introduction of two other words that emphasis 'will' and ' responsibilities':-
• Mind [nous]: human intellectual capacity [Phil 4:7] which may be good or bad. It may be immoral, vain, corrupt defiled [Rm 1:28; Eph 4:17]. It contains God's law [Rm 7:23] and in a Christian is renewed transforming life [Rm 12:2], imparting the mind of Christ [ICor 2:16].
• Conscience [suneidessis]: human faculty for moral judgment. It can be defiled [ICor 8:7] or pure [ITim 3:9]. It is that consciousness of 'being right within one's heart' [Rm2:15].
So 'leb' is conscious spiritual activity, stressing the sense of responsibility.
Contrast : Nephesh, Ruah, Leb
It will be quite clear that 'nephesh', 'ruah', and 'leb' overlap one another at significant points.The distinctions between 'nephesh' and 'leb' at the higher level of understanding is very difficult. They are often used interchangeably [cf Ex 6:9 with Jg 16:16; Ecc 7:8 with Job 6:11], and yet they are not the same. The distinction is found back at their roots.
The overlap between all three is to be expected when we remember each is considering the whole man from a slightly different angle. Their contrasting stresses may be seen as:-
• Nephesh : instinctive 'animal' activity.
• Leb : conscious spiritual activity.
• Ruah : personhood open to the influence of the nature of God.'Nephesh' and 'leb' stand in contrast with 'ruah' between them. 'Nephesh' and 'ruah' stress the 'lower' and 'higher' levels of consciousness.

 

[jgredline]

Hail the great theologian: JG.

CP
Thanks for the compliment, but as I have told you. I am not a theologian nor to I want to be a theologian.I know that next to you, I would seem like a great theologian, but rest assure I am not.

Now you can cut and paste all you want.but I have still proved you wrong....