Does the human soul consciously exist following death

[Solo]

Oscar,
The word translated perish in John 3:16 is the same Greek word αποληται translated perish in Hebrews 1:11. The definition of the Greek word αποληται is to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively.

Notice in Hebrew 1:11-12 it states, "They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail."

Note that "They shall perish" but they do not cease to exist as we see later in the verse, "they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up", AND "they shall all be changed". No where does it say they will cease to exist.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? Hebrews 1:8-13

 

[Oscar3]

Thanks solo
I appreciate the bible lesson very much.

 

[mutzrein]

“No one has ever gone up into the presence of God except the One who came down from that Presence, the Son of Man who himself is God. In the same way that Moses lifted the serpent in the desert so people could have something to see and then believe, it is necessary for the Son of Man to be lifted upâ€â€and everyone who looks up to him, trusting and expectant, will gain a real life, eternal life.
“This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be sentenced to eternal torment; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life. God didn’t go to all the trouble of sending his Son merely to point an accusing finger, telling the world how bad it was. He came to help, to put the world right again. Anyone who trusts in him is acquitted; anyone who refuses to trust him has long since been under the death sentence without knowing it. And why? Because of that person’s failure to believe in the one-of-a-kind Son of God when introduced to him.

Well that is all very fine Oscar but what does John 3:16 say about those who don't receive eternal life?

 

[SputnikBoy]

Okay, how about a straight answer to a straight question ...all theology aside for a moment . . .?

Am I to understand that, unless one believes that God

1. has prepared a place SOLELY for torturing people, and,

2. keeps people alive for eternity SOLELY for torturing them,

they themselves are destined to spend eternity in this torture chamber?

Is this what some are ACTUALLY saying here? What say Solo, jg, Oscar ...Judy?

 

[Solo]

Okay, how about a straight answer to a straight question ...all theology aside for a moment . . .?

Am I to understand that, unless one believes that God

1. has prepared a place SOLELY for torturing people, and,

2. keeps people alive for eternity SOLELY for torturing them,

they themselves are destined to spend eternity in this torture chamber?

Is this what some are ACTUALLY saying here? What say Solo, jg, Oscar ...Judy?

What you are to believe is what the Bible says. Do a study on the Hebrew Sheol which is the Greek Hades and you will find that this is a place-name which is has geographical locations for the souls of the righteous dead and the unrighteous dead; along with the graves and sepulchers and tombs of the bodies of the dead; and deep in the "pit" or "abyss" of Sheol/Hades is the place where the fallen angels reside. Hades/Sheol will be cast into Gehenna the "lake of fire" along with death at the end; and this lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels. Unfortunately, there are those who reject being in God's kingdom because they prefer the evil that satan has revealed to them. Each person born has a choice to be righteous or to be unrighteous when the Holy Spirit reveals the choice.

 

[carey]

hmmm

Okay, how about a straight answer to a straight question ...all theology aside for a moment . . .?

Am I to understand that, unless one believes that God

1. has prepared a place SOLELY for torturing people, and,

my understanding is God will simply raise people to eithr live forever or die a second death.

Revelations 20 : 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.


2. keeps people alive for eternity SOLELY for torturing them,

Not according to Revelations 20 : 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

they themselves are destined to spend eternity in this torture chamber?

Read posted scriptures above

Is this what some are ACTUALLY saying here? What say Solo, jg, Oscar ...Judy?

I certainly don't know how they could after reading Revelations 20

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

While some of us seem to have figured out the difference between life and death, you guys (Solo and jg) almost relish in your belief that (your) God gives many eternal life JUST SO THAT HE CAN TORTURE THEM!


I hate your God.

Okay, how about a straight answer to a straight question ...all theology aside for a moment . . .?

Am I to understand that, unless one believes that God

1. has prepared a place SOLELY for torturing people, and,

2. keeps people alive for eternity SOLELY for torturing them,

they themselves are destined to spend eternity in this torture chamber?

Is this what some are ACTUALLY saying here? What say Solo, jg, Oscar ...Judy?

SputnikBoy,

What do you believe that God should do with people who hate Him, want nothing to do with Him, even after he sent Jesus Christ to earth to tell these people that God loves them, and will forgive them if they will repent of their sin, and come back to Him?

God gave His only begotten Son. His Son was mocked. Arrested and put on trial. Beaten. Spit on. Ridiculed. Had a crown of thorns put on His head. Had nails driven into His hands and feet. Hung publicly on a cross. While the Son of God hung on the cross, people continued to laugh at Him. They continued to tell Jesus Christ what they thought He should do if He was indeed the Son of God.

God made a way back into the Kingdom of God for anyone that wants to come back to God. God says come back to Him. No matter who you are. Great or small. No matter what sin you have committed. What do you, SputnikBoy, believe God should do with those who refuse to come back to God?

 

[carey]

hmmm

SputnikBoy,

What do you believe that God should do with people who hate Him, want nothing to do with Him, even after he sent Jesus Christ to earth to tell these people that God loves them, and will forgive them if they will repent of their sin, and come back to Him?

God gave His only begotten Son. His Son was mocked. Arrested and put on trial. Beaten. Spit on. Ridiculed. Had a crown of thorns put on His head. Had nails driven into His hands and feet. Hung publicly on a cross. While the Son of God hung on the cross, people continued to laugh at Him. They continued to tell Jesus Christ what they thought He should do if He was indeed the Son of God.

God made a way back into the Kingdom of God for anyone that wants to come back to God. God says come back to Him. No matter who you are. Great or small. No matter what sin you have committed. What do you, SputnikBoy, believe God should do with those who refuse to come back to God?

Mark 10 : 8"I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. 9But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. 10And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.


Hebrews 6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your caseâ€â€things that accompany salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

 

[SputnikBoy]

SputnikBoy,

What do you believe that God should do with people who hate Him, want nothing to do with Him, even after he sent Jesus Christ to earth to tell these people that God loves them, and will forgive them if they will repent of their sin, and come back to Him?

God gave His only begotten Son. His Son was mocked. Arrested and put on trial. Beaten. Spit on. Ridiculed. Had a crown of thorns put on His head. Had nails driven into His hands and feet. Hung publicly on a cross. While the Son of God hung on the cross, people continued to laugh at Him. They continued to tell Jesus Christ what they thought He should do if He was indeed the Son of God.

God made a way back into the Kingdom of God for anyone that wants to come back to God. God says come back to Him. No matter who you are. Great or small. No matter what sin you have committed. What do you, SputnikBoy, believe God should do with those who refuse to come back to God?

What God 'should' do with those who have been given the freedom to reject Him if they so choose is far too complex an issue for me to deal with, Gabby. I don't know what God 'should' do with them.

That you, however, see eternal torment as being the ONLY option for those who reject God is most disconcerting. I believe that this says more about YOUR heart than it does for your speaking for God. Such a superior Being would not lend Himself to initiate such barbaric measures for those He claims to love ...or for those He claims to hate, for that matter. Hate and revenge are human traits and would not enter into the mindset of an all powerful, wise, and just God. God is oftentimes someone we create from our OWN minds. We want to poke someone with a sharp stick to make them suffer ...so too will our God. We want someone to pay for their wrongs by tormenting them for eternity ...so too will our God. Many Christians are long on misinterpreted scriptural texts and short on actual scriptural savvy. Furthermore, I would like to think that literal 'eternal torment' for any 'living' being - wicked or otherwise - would go against the moral fiber of EVERY HUMAN ON THIS PLANET!

The only two options I see in the Bible are - for the millionth time - eternal life or eternal death. There doesn't appear to be any middle ground. How God will accomplish this is something that NO ONE knows and we're all beating a dead horse even discussing the issue.

 

[SputnikBoy]

What you are to believe is what the Bible says. Do a study on the Hebrew Sheol which is the Greek Hades and you will find that this is a place-name which is has geographical locations for the souls of the righteous dead and the unrighteous dead; along with the graves and sepulchers and tombs of the bodies of the dead; and deep in the "pit" or "abyss" of Sheol/Hades is the place where the fallen angels reside. Hades/Sheol will be cast into Gehenna the "lake of fire" along with death at the end; and this lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels. Unfortunately, there are those who reject being in God's kingdom because they prefer the evil that satan has revealed to them. Each person born has a choice to be righteous or to be unrighteous when the Holy Spirit reveals the choice.

I believe with all my heart that the fate of 'the lost' will be left in God's hands, Solo. I have no idea at all how He will deal with them. We ARE told in the Bible that they will perish or cease to exist. So, that is what I have to believe at this point in time.

I see no evidence in the Bible at all that 'the lost' will continue to live on and be subjected to eternal torment. The lost will DIE. I see no place in the Bible where there exists a LITERAL place called hell in which these 'zombies' will be PHYSICALLY tormented. They are DEAD. I DO, however, see a great deal of figurative and illustrative texts in the Bible that deal with the state of 'being lost'.

One of the most valuable pieces of equipment God gave us was our mind. With this organ we can determine fact from fiction, the literal from the figurative, the decent from the vulgar, the just from the unjust. With this organ we can determine what God will do with the lost even though we don't have all of the details. Tormenting them (literally) for eternity doesn't enter into the mindset of a loving God OR rational human thinking.

 

[jgredline]

Sput
the bible teaches that there is a hell and it is eternal and that people will burn and be tormented forever......This is not any of our opinions but it is what the bible teaches...Jay T your flag ship SDA has not been able to mount a challenge to the word of God, nore has anybody else for that matter...

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=26893

Sorry but it is what it is.....

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

What God 'should' do with those who have been given the freedom to reject Him if they so choose is far too complex an issue for me to deal with, Gabby. I don't know what God 'should' do with them.

Could I suggest that you change your statement to say that you are unclear on the issue of justice, judgments, and eternal destination, rather than to say "I hate your God."
It just seems to me that your statement might displease the God that you claim to believe in.

 

[Solo]

I believe with all my heart that the fate of 'the lost' will be left in God's hands, Solo. I have no idea at all how He will deal with them. We ARE told in the Bible that they will perish or cease to exist. So, that is what I have to believe at this point in time.

I see no evidence in the Bible at all that 'the lost' will continue to live on and be subjected to eternal torment. The lost will DIE. I see no place in the Bible where there exists a LITERAL place called hell in which these 'zombies' will be PHYSICALLY tormented. They are DEAD. I DO, however, see a great deal of figurative and illustrative texts in the Bible that deal with the state of 'being lost'.

One of the most valuable pieces of equipment God gave us was our mind. With this organ we can determine fact from fiction, the literal from the figurative, the decent from the vulgar, the just from the unjust. With this organ we can determine what God will do with the lost even though we don't have all of the details. Tormenting them (literally) for eternity doesn't enter into the mindset of a loving God OR rational human thinking.

Let me share with you what your stand should be and how you should answer your opinion in the matter of eternal punishment. You should say that you do not know exactly what Almighty God intends to do with those who reject him, but if everlasting punishment and torment is the plight of those poor souls who do reject his salvation, then I would suggest that you all become born again just in case. I also would add that whatever Almighty God determines is a far cry better than anything that I would or could come up with. Then leave it at that. Otherwise you are putting your opinion over the words that are recorded in the scripture.

Do you know exactly what death is?
Do you know exactly where souls exist after the body dies?
Do you know exactly where satan will spend eternity as he and the angels are immortal?
Do you know exactly what eternal punishment God has for those who reject him?

The answer that we all can answer those questions with is no. We know what the Bible says, but our understanding and God's understanding is so far apart that we have no idea with our finite minds.

 

[SputnikBoy]

By the way, I'm assuming that most people on this forum are relatively smart and can figure it out all by themselves as to WHY I made the remark of "I hate YOUR God." Some have focused on this remark in a similar way they present and focus on misinterpreted scriptures to promote their questionable doctrines. They KNOW why I made the remark but they feign ignorance and use it instead as an attempt to discredit me as well as to bolster their own position on this issue. No one would say, "I love Hitler", or "I love Saddam Hussein" because they 'had their reasons' for having tortured and slaughtered many innocent or not-so-innocent people. Susan Atkins (the 'vampire' of the Charles Manson 'family') claimed that she loved those she brutalized and killed and was simply freeing them from the evils of their lifestyle. She had her reasons. Do any of us REALLY believe that love and torture go together? Does God have any legitimate reason for doing the very same thing - WORSE in fact - that would normally and naturally APPALL US? Of course not.

The God of mainstream Christianity who would torment people for all of eternity for not worshipping him is, I believe, a God of their own making. While I question the God of the Old Testament I believe that the Messiah of the New Testament taught us a new way to deal with our enemies. It did NOT INVOLVE THE VINDICTIVE TORMENTING OF THEM FOR ETERNITY OR EVEN FOR A MOMENT! Besides that the issue is moot. The lost perish. Case closed as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

A Christian comedian once included in his act a segment on how we are what we eat. He used this analogy to show how this is true with the things that we put in our mind. Garbage in - garbage out. Good stuff in- good stuff out. Doctor stuff in- doctor stuff out. He was making a point about how people will absorb the things that interest them, the things that they want to know.

This is true when we apply the things of God to our lives. The calling of Christians will bear fruit. Those who are focused on the finances can quote verses that have to do with money - very quickly. People in healing ministries know the passages that have to do with the healing, sickness, and other aspects of health in the light of God's word. Not just the Scriptures alone. They spend time talking to the Lord about the things that interest them. Learning so that they can teach. Correcting in their own studies the things that need corrected.

When someone spends their life watching loved ones step into eternity the way I have, they spend some time talking to God and studying His word on eternal destinies. When someone spends their life watching wicked people do ungodly, wicked unspeakable things to their loved ones, the way I have, they spend a lot of time talking to God and studying His word on justice, on judgment, on forgiveness, and mercy and grace.

Some of the people that I considered to be heroes in my life have died without Jesus. Some of the people that I considered to be the scum of the earth have repented of their sin and now serve the Lord.

Those on the outside looking in have so many preconceived notions of how they would deal with such things. I can do nothing other than know that God is righteous and just and His judgments are true. It is because of that knowledge that I can accept Gods judgments in either case. And it is because I am in this lifestyle and have to deal with it, that God has given me the grace to understand both justice and mercy.

God is God. In that SputnikBoy, you are right. He is Holy, and His judgments are righteous and true. His ways are not our ways. He tells us to call on Him and He will answer us and tell us great and mighty things that we know nothing of.

Time after time Sput, you have ridiculed me for requesting prayer for justice. In that you are wrong. When someone has lived a life like mine, to read your thoughts on justice and judgment - it would appear that God looks on the oppressed and says "So what. Big deal". To those who are committing such oppression, to read your thoughts on justice and judgment, they would walk away thinking "So what. Big deal. There is nothing to lose."

Psa 103:6 The LORD executeth righteousness and judgment for all that are oppressed.

The truth about this topic is important, and has eternal consequences. And those who are going into all the world to preach the gospel will be held accountable for the things that they have taught...and the information that has been withheld.

Sput, you posted:
"I have no idea at all how He will deal with them."

... it would be wise to stop preaching as if you do.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Sput
the bible teaches that there is a hell and it is eternal and that people will burn and be tormented forever......This is not any of our opinions but it is what the bible teaches...Jay T your flag ship SDA has not been able to mount a challenge to the word of God, nore has anybody else for that matter...

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=26893

Sorry but it is what it is.....

THIS ISSUE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TEACHINGS OF THE SDA CHURCH, jg. You continually use the SDA ploy as a red herring and it's just not on. As far as I know each 'SDA doctrine' can be pretty well backed up by scripture. So, it's Bible first, "SDA doctrine' second. With much of mainstream Christianity it seems to be tradition first, Bible second ...maybe.

Hell is used figuratively in the Bible for THE STATE of the lost. Plain and simply. Hell is NOT an actual geographical feature that exists solely to torment the lost. The lost will be eternally lost, no 'physical' punishment necessary. Their torment - figurative only - will be that they did not receive eternal life. They will be - again figuratively - gnashing their teeth in anguish. This is the Bible we're talking about here that was intended for the common folk ...not some black and white academic textbook that is devoid of hyperbole or illustrative terminology and dialog. The Bible accomodates the thinking of the everyman and is full of fabalistic and cultural symbolisms that would have been understood by those for whom it was mainly written. WE of the year 2007 seem to be the ignoramuses ...!

You don't want to see this, jg - even though in your heart you KNOW it to be true - and therefore continue on with your dogmatic mindset. You know what your main problem is ...? Pride. Pride will not allow you to concede to the fact that eternal suffering is repugnant to EVERY Christian and nonChristian soul on this earth and is therefore not acceptable. Instead you continue to glorify a God (YOUR God) who would take one or both of your sons and cause them to suffer anguish for all of eternity. Furthermore, you appear to be quite okay about this idea and accomodate it with open arms. After all ...whoever receives eternal torment is deserving of it ...right?

You are wrong and you know you are wrong, jg. Pride and devout loyalty to tradition simply makes you dig in your heels even harder. The same, I believe, is true for Solo. You both claim quite loudly that you are born again. There is no way that a born again Christian can possibly be wrong or admit to being wrong, is there? Hmmm

Whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish but receive everlasting life. Whosoever does NOT believeth on Him SHALL perish and will NOT receive everlasting life. Seems to be pretty clear, doesn't it?

 

[jgredline]

Sput
Prove me wrong using the scriptures NOT your opinion.

Show me where I have taught falsely

You once said that the Belief in Jesus is not a big deal and now you say you hate God....I feel sorry for you sput.....Your words have no credibility.

 

[mutzrein]

You are wrong and you know you are wrong, jg. Pride and devout loyalty to tradition simply makes you dig in your heels even harder. The same, I believe, is true for Solo. You both claim quite loudly that you are born again. There is no way that a born again Christian can possibly be wrong or admit to being wrong, is there? Hmmm

Yes there is. I've been wrong heaps and I don't mind admitting it :wink:

 

[jgredline]

Yes there is. I've been wrong heaps and I don't mind admitting it :wink:

I have been wrong before and I can point to many post were I have oppologized....In this case I am not wrong. If I am wrong, break out the scriptures in context....and prove me wrong....

 

[mutzrein]

I have been wrong before and I can point to many post were I have oppologized....In this case I am not wrong. If I am wrong, break out the scriptures in context....and prove me wrong....

JG - in this case your debate is with Sput. I was merely pointing out to him that as one who is born again, I have been wrong and am prepared to admit fallibility ...