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drunkeness

So you believe we are to keep OT law?....all of it?.....some of it?...none of it?
Faith in Christ satisfies the law of Moses.

Faith in Christ satisfies any and all OT requirements to draw near to God in covenant worship (circumcision, Passover, Sabbaths, etc.). There's no reason to have to literally do those any more to be in covenant with God because faith in Christ has already brought you near to God. Why seek to draw near to God in the old way when we have already been brought near to God through a new and better way?

And so it is for that reason that we do not have to 'do' those old covenant worship methods and timetables. But our misguided, spirit-less forefathers outlawed those observances altogether thinking that the attempt to observe any of them is automatically and categorically equivalent to trying to be justified by them. How ridiculous. In place of them they invented the procedures and timetables we now have.

As for the rest of the law, when you love others by doing them no harm, and even helping them in their distress, you will have no outstanding debt of the law against you. And so it is in that way that our faith, expressed through love for others, fulfills the law of Moses.

The fulfillment of the law: Faith in, and obedience to, Christ.
 
Faith in Christ satisfies the law of Moses.

Faith in Christ satisfies any and all OT requirements to draw near to God in covenant worship (circumcision, Passover, Sabbaths, etc.). There's no reason to have to literally do those any more to be in covenant with God because faith in Christ has already brought you near to God. Why seek to draw near to God in the old way when we have already been brought near to God through a new and better way?

And so it is for that reason that we do not have to 'do' those old covenant worship methods and timetables. But our misguided, spirit-less forefathers outlawed those observances altogether thinking that the attempt to observe any of them is automatically and categorically equivalent to trying to be justified by them. How ridiculous. In place of them they invented the procedures and timetables we now have.

As for the rest of the law, when you love others by doing them no harm, and even helping them in their distress, you will have no outstanding debt of the law against you. And so it is in that way that our faith, expressed through love for others, fulfills the law of Moses.

The fulfillment of the law: Faith in, and obedience to, Christ.
Even so this is off a bit of the OP/subject, but due to the above post, I would say that: Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+3:31&version=KJV ,
I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-17.htm
 
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Against both.

This is incorrect Brother. It's in Proverbs

Proverbs 3
5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.../

I can't recall any scriptures which say no in every instance to partaking alcohol. Do you know of any?
 
This is incorrect Brother. It's in Proverbs

Proverbs 3
5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.../

I can't recall any scriptures which say no in every instance to partaking alcohol. Do you know of any?
Jesus' first miracle was the changing of water to wine. And this was done after the wine that was provided for the wedding had already been drunk. To have a drink of alcohol is not drunkenness. Drunkenness is habitual intoxication not responsible drinking.
 
This is incorrect Brother. It's in Proverbs

Proverbs 3
5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.../

I can't recall any scriptures which say no in every instance to partaking alcohol. Do you know of any?
The OT law does not regulate NT Christianity. Paul condemns going back to the OT law to justify some thing, Rom 7:1-6. Therefore justification for social drinking must be found within the NT and it is not there.

Eph 5:18 "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;" The verb drunk is an inceptive verb, the action of the verb is showing a progression, in other words, drunkenness is a process that begins with the first drink, not the 5th or 6th drink. Taking the first drink is starting the process of drunkenness which is the very thing Paul is saying not to do.

A — 2: μεθύσκω
noflash.gif

(Strong's #3182 — Verb — methusko — meth-oos'-ko )
signifies "to make drunk, or to grow drunk" (an inceptive verb, marking the process or the state expressed in No. 1), "to become intoxicated," Luke 12:45 ; Ephesians 5:18 ; 1 Thessalonians 5:7 .

-----

1 Pet 4:3 "For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:"

Peter is condemning drinking in 3 varying amounts; excessive amounts, moderate amounts (revellings) and small amounts (banquetings). Banquetings refers to social drinking.

----

1 Pet 1:13 "Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;" The Greek word for sober nepho literally means not drink, to abstain. Our English word nephalism comes from this Greek root word:

: total abstinence from alcoholic beverages.
Middle Greek nēphalismos soberness, from Greek nēphalios sober (from nēphein to be sober, drink no wine) + -ismos -ism; akin to Armenian nautʽi sober
.

 
The argument usually made is social drinking is acceptable in moderation but sinful in excess. Who has the authority to decides for everyone else what amount constitutes moderate or what amount constitutes excess?
Gluttony is also a sin. Gluttony is habitual excess food intake. Where is the line that defines gluttony and who has the authority to decide for everyone else what amount constitutes moderate or what amount constitutes excess?

There is no place in Scripture where it says it is a sin to consume alcoholic beverages and in fact there are instances in Scripture where it demonstrates that consumption of alcohol by itself is not sinful and in some cases recommended. There are numerous places where Scripture says it is sinful to be a drunkard.
 
Gluttony is also a sin. Gluttony is habitual excess food intake. Where is the line that defines gluttony and who has the authority to decide for everyone else what amount constitutes moderate or what amount constitutes excess?

There is no place in Scripture where it says it is a sin to consume alcoholic beverages and in fact there are instances in Scripture where it demonstrates that consumption of alcohol by itself is not sinful and in some cases recommended. There are numerous places where Scripture says it is sinful to be a drunkard.
As pointed out in an earlier post, the verb drunk is an inceptive verb thereby making drunkenness a process beginning with the first drink. Taking the first drink is the beginning of the process which is the thing Paul condemns. I do not know where in the Bible gluttony is said to be a process that begins with the first bite. The line has been drawn with drinking with the first drink.

(Gluttony in the Bible carries a far bigger picture than eating too much.)
 
As pointed out in an earlier post, the verb drunk is an inceptive verb thereby making drunkenness a process beginning with the first drink. Taking the first drink is the beginning of the process which is the thing Paul condemns. I do not know where in the Bible gluttony is said to be a process that begins with the first bite. The line has been drawn with drinking with the first drink.

(Gluttony in the Bible carries a far bigger picture than eating too much.)
Then how do you reconcile this with Scripture? Jesus making wine and Paul, who you claim defines drunkenness from the first drink, instructing Timothy to drink wine. Your explanation is a contradiction.

If drinking alcoholic beverages, even just one, is a problem then yes, I agree with you. I have a number of friends who are alcoholics in recovery and will be for the remainder of their lives and this would be a very true and realistic statement for them. Drinking an alcoholic beverage in and of itself is not a sinful activity but becomes one when the drinker goes beyond the occasional drink and begins to delve into abusing alcohol and into the world of alcoholism.

Food is very similar. We need it to survive and to eat food regularly in moderation is okay and even necessary. It can become a problem, however, when we allow it to become a god to us and overtake our lives.

Drugs too. There are many drugs that we take in moderation and even some very dangerous and potentially addictive drugs that we take under a physician's supervision. However, if we begin to take them to excess they become a god to us and then we cross the line into sinful behavior.
 
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Then how do you reconcile this with Scripture? Jesus making wine and Paul, who you claim defines drunkenness from the first drink, instructing Timothy to drink wine. Your explanation is a contradiction.

If drinking alcoholic beverages, even just one, is a problem then yes, I agree with you. I have a number of friends who are alcoholics in recovery and will be for the remainder of their lives and this would be a very true and realistic statement for them. Drinking an alcoholic beverage in and of itself is not a sinful activity but becomes one when the drinker goes beyond the occasional drink and begins to delve into abusing alcohol and into the world of alcoholism.

Food is very similar. We need it to survive and to eat food regularly in moderation is okay and even necessary. It can become a problem, however, when we allow it to become a god to us and overtake our lives.

Drugs too. There are many drugs that we take in moderation and even some very dangerous and potentially addictive drugs that we take under a physician's supervision. However, if we begin to take them to excess they become a god to us and then we cross the line into sinful behavior.

I agree with you Brother. And it is also covered in Romans 14 I would think.
I used to drink like a fish when I was a young teenager, but I looked around and saw what I did not want to become. So I set it down, even before I became of legal age. I was not a drinker when I met who would become my wife. And she used to make sweet drinks around the holidays and I would partake with them. And her dad was big beer drinker and maybe once per summer I would have a beer with him. Never a problem for me. I bought two six packs of Bud Light Limey beers this summer because one or two on a very hot day seems refreshing, but I am drawing closer to the Lord and He has never convicted me of it. I believe it's because I don't go overboard.
 
If you do not drink to excess then moderation is fine. If you do drink to excess then moderation will not work because the first drink will trigger the craving for more and you will end up drunk. I just found out that some psychologists are no longer using the word "alcoholic." Strange. I am a "recovering alcoholic." I have not had a drink since November 7, 1982. I used God and AA to get sober, and I use the Holy Spirit to stay sober.
 
Then how do you reconcile this with Scripture? Jesus making wine and Paul, who you claim defines drunkenness from the first drink, instructing Timothy to drink wine. Your explanation is a contradiction.

If drinking alcoholic beverages, even just one, is a problem then yes, I agree with you. I have a number of friends who are alcoholics in recovery and will be for the remainder of their lives and this would be a very true and realistic statement for them. Drinking an alcoholic beverage in and of itself is not a sinful activity but becomes one when the drinker goes beyond the occasional drink and begins to delve into abusing alcohol and into the world of alcoholism.

Food is very similar. We need it to survive and to eat food regularly in moderation is okay and even necessary. It can become a problem, however, when we allow it to become a god to us and overtake our lives.

Drugs too. There are many drugs that we take in moderation and even some very dangerous and potentially addictive drugs that we take under a physician's supervision. However, if we begin to take them to excess they become a god to us and then we cross the line into sinful behavior.
The word "wine" as used in the KJC does NOT always mean fermented wine, Isa 65:8; Joel 2:24. "Wine" in these verses refers to fresh grape juice. You incorrectly assuming the word 'wine' only refers to fermented wine. One does not even have to go back hundreds of years to King James but a few decades. I have found those online who have English dictionaries from 1950's and back that define 'wine' as a generic word for grape juice, it may or MAY NOT be fermented. Even the underlying Greek word translated wine (oinos) refers to a sweet drink that may or MAY NOT be fermented. You must be assuming Jesus made fermented wine.

--reasons Jesus performed miracles was to manifest His glory and induce a belief in people Jn 2:11. How could He do this while contributing to the sin of drunkenness of those people?

--I showed in an earlier post (#189) various verses that do condemn social drinking. Would Jesus be hypocritical and violate (also cause disciples) His own NT? I have not seen those verses cited in post #189 refuted.


Albert Barnes on Jn 2:10 (my emp)
The good wine - This shows that this had all the qualities of real wine. We should not be deceived by the phrase "good wine." We often use the phrase to denote that it is good in proportion to its strength and its power to intoxicate; but no such sense is to be attached to the word here. Pliny, Plutarch, and Horace describe wine as "good," or mention that as "the best wine," which was harmless or "innocent" - poculo vini "innocentis." The most useful wine - "utilissimum vinum" - was that which had little strength; and the most wholesome wine - "saluberrimum vinum" - was that which had not been adulterated by "the addition of anything to the 'must' or juice." Pliny expressly says that a good wine was one that was destitute of spirit (lib. iv. c. 13). It should not be assumed, therefore, that the "good wine" was "stronger" than the other: it is rather to be presumed that it was milder.

The wine referred to here was doubtless such as was commonly drunk in Palestine. That was the pure juice of the grape. It was not brandied wine, nor drugged wine, nor wine compounded of various substances, such as we drink in this land. The common wine drunk in Palestine was that which was the simple juice of the grape. we use the word "wine" now to denote the kind of liquid which passes under that name in this country - always containing a considerable portion of alcohol not only the alcohol produced by fermentation, but alcohol "added" to keep it or make it stronger. But we have no right to take that sense of the word, and go with it to the interpretation of the Scriptures. We should endeavor to place ourselves in the exact circumstances of those times, ascertain precisely what idea the word would convey to those who used it then, and apply that sense to the word in the interpretation of the Bible; and there is not the slightest evidence that the word so used would have conveyed any idea but that of the pure juice of the grape, nor the slightest circumstance mentioned in this account that would not be fully met by such a supposition
.

Sin is wrong in any amount, moderation or excess.
 
Paul, who you claim defines drunkenness from the first drink, instructing Timothy to drink wine.

1 Tim 5:23 "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

Paul is not LITERALLY telling Timothy to not drink water anymore but a 'not-but' elliptical statement telling Timothy to put more emphasis on mixing water with wine over drinking water alone.

Paul is telling Timothy to add this wine to water whereby the alcoholic content would kill bacteria (alcohol in wine acts as an antiseptic) in the water at the same time dilutes the alcohol preventing intoxicating effect.** Instructing Timothy to drink wine implies Timothy had been abstaining from drinking wine even for medicinal uses.

This passage in giving medicinal uses of wine no more consents to social drinking than advising one to take an aspirin consents to recreational drug use.


**
"Fermented wine of ancient, biblical times was often used as a remedy for such illnesses as the alcohol would prevent dysentery by destroying the bacteria and harmful pathogens of the water. This remedy was widely recognized by the Talmudists, Plutarch, Pliny, and as far back as the writings of Hippocrates himself (Fee, New International Biblical Commentary, p. 135). Therefore, Paul’s instruction to Timothy was in no way an endorsement of the recreational and social conception of alcoholic beverages, but advised purely for medicinal purposes."
.
 
The word "wine" as used in the KJC does NOT always mean fermented wine, Isa 65:8; Joel 2:24. "Wine" in these verses refers to fresh grape juice. You incorrectly assuming the word 'wine' only refers to fermented wine. One does not even have to go back hundreds of years to King James but a few decades. I have found those online who have English dictionaries from 1950's and back that define 'wine' as a generic word for grape juice, it may or MAY NOT be fermented. Even the underlying Greek word translated wine (oinos) refers to a sweet drink that may or MAY NOT be fermented. You must be assuming Jesus made fermented wine.

--reasons Jesus performed miracles was to manifest His glory and induce a belief in people Jn 2:11. How could He do this while contributing to the sin of drunkenness of those people?

--I showed in an earlier post (#189) various verses that do condemn social drinking. Would Jesus be hypocritical and violate (also cause disciples) His own NT? I have not seen those verses cited in post #189 refuted.


Albert Barnes on Jn 2:10 (my emp)
The good wine - This shows that this had all the qualities of real wine. We should not be deceived by the phrase "good wine." We often use the phrase to denote that it is good in proportion to its strength and its power to intoxicate; but no such sense is to be attached to the word here. Pliny, Plutarch, and Horace describe wine as "good," or mention that as "the best wine," which was harmless or "innocent" - poculo vini "innocentis." The most useful wine - "utilissimum vinum" - was that which had little strength; and the most wholesome wine - "saluberrimum vinum" - was that which had not been adulterated by "the addition of anything to the 'must' or juice." Pliny expressly says that a good wine was one that was destitute of spirit (lib. iv. c. 13). It should not be assumed, therefore, that the "good wine" was "stronger" than the other: it is rather to be presumed that it was milder.

The wine referred to here was doubtless such as was commonly drunk in Palestine. That was the pure juice of the grape. It was not brandied wine, nor drugged wine, nor wine compounded of various substances, such as we drink in this land. The common wine drunk in Palestine was that which was the simple juice of the grape. we use the word "wine" now to denote the kind of liquid which passes under that name in this country - always containing a considerable portion of alcohol not only the alcohol produced by fermentation, but alcohol "added" to keep it or make it stronger. But we have no right to take that sense of the word, and go with it to the interpretation of the Scriptures. We should endeavor to place ourselves in the exact circumstances of those times, ascertain precisely what idea the word would convey to those who used it then, and apply that sense to the word in the interpretation of the Bible; and there is not the slightest evidence that the word so used would have conveyed any idea but that of the pure juice of the grape, nor the slightest circumstance mentioned in this account that would not be fully met by such a supposition
.

Sin is wrong in any amount, moderation or excess.

I'm sure that I read somewhere before that all of the wine in biblical times was fermented. That it had to be to preserve it. So I just googled it again and everything I'm seeing now says that their wine was fermented. We can't know what the alcohol percentage of it was but they say yes it was fermented. So Albert seems to be the lone soul who believes it was only grape juice. I found no other source that says it was not fermented.
 
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