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drunkeness

wondering said:
I understand Jethro's point. He's upset that we may act like the rest of the world and the church says nothing about it.
But if we carry his idea to its logical conclusion, we'd have to move to Pennsylvania and go live with the Amish.
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Just practice your liberty to consume alcohol in the privacy of your own home. What's so hard about that?
I know this doesn't apply to you, assuming that what you say is true, and that there are no circumstances in which alcohol would be a stumbling block to people where you live. But if/when you come back to the States you should do what Paul says and keep your liberty secret. Alcohol is a real problem over here. Countless ruined lives and families, and yet the church, in general, openly celebrates drinking.
 
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wondering said:
No problem with the dressing.
WHAT ABOUT JEWELRY???
Do I have to stop wearing jewelry???
And my hair. Is it supposed to be only in certain styles?
Inquiring minds want to know...
LOL
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I think it funny that you're trying to leverage a problem that doesn't exist in order to rationalize the flagrant, use and love of alcohol.
Even in our youth groups, the girls don't let their boobies show nor adorn themselves with gaudy and excessive jewelry. In all my thirty years as a Christian, that simply is not an issue in God's household. The occasional female visitor that shows up with not enough clothes is quickly counseled about appropriate dress and that's the last you see of them. They never come back. This has been the case in every church I've ever been in.
 
Wrg1405 said:
I was joshing with you mate.
I know your not saying you are not allowed to drink alcohol.
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I got a question for you.
Since public nudity is pretty much legal over there, have you ever had a topless woman come to church?

Is lack of dress, or excessive adornment a problem over there in the church (the real church, not in the 'churches of the world')?
 
Jethro Bodine said:
I got a question for you.
Since public nudity is pretty much legal over there, have you ever had a topless woman come to church?

Is lack of dress, or excessive adornment a problem over there in the church (the real church, not in the 'churches of the world')?
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By the same token, is bringing a bottle of whiskey or wine and drinking it during church a problem anywhere? If so, I have not heard about it......
 
civilwarbuff said:
No, what you appear to be pushing is if you consume alcohol you need to hide it like it is a sin....is that correct?
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Drinking the alcohol itself is NOT A SIN (apart from drunkenness of course).
Not being sensitive to where others are at concerning alcohol IS.
That is where the church has gone wrong. Big time!
 
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Jethro Bodine said:
I got a question for you.
Since public nudity is pretty much legal over there, have you ever had a topless woman come to church?

Is lack of dress, or excessive adornment a problem over there in the church (the real church, not in the 'churches of the world')?
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Nudity is legal on this side??
I'll defer to Wrg.
Not by me...
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Drinking the alcohol itself is NOT A SIN (apart from drunkenness of course).
Not being sensitive to where others are at concerning alcohol IS.
That's is where the church has gone wrong. Big time!
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I attended a Nazarene Church for many years.
They served grapefruit juice for communion.
This I find to be a good idea so that those who cannot drink wine can still participate.

..
 
Jethro Bodine said:
I think it funny that you're trying to leverage a problem that doesn't exist in order to rationalize the flagrant, use and love of alcohol.
Even in our youth groups, the girls don't let their boobies show nor adorn themselves with gaudy and excessive jewelry. In all my thirty years as a Christian, that simply is not an issue in God's household. The occasional female visitor that shows up with not enough clothes is quickly counseled about appropriate dress and that's the last you see of them. They never come back. This has been the case in every church I've ever been in.
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I agree that those inappropriately dressed should be counselled after the service.
But it's OK to wear a swimsuit on the beach.

I see this as being the same.
If I go around with a little bottle of booze in my pocket and take a gulp every now and then, I m setting a very bad testimony.
If I drink wine with dinner and not enough to affect me, I see no problem.

The church should preach holiness and make sure we understand how God would want us to be. That's all it could do.

Also, I believe that a pastor cannot convict us of sin, that's the work of the Holy Spirit.

Wondering
 
Jethro Bodine said:
I think it funny that you're trying to leverage a problem that doesn't exist in order to rationalize the flagrant, use and love of alcohol.
Even in our youth groups, the girls don't let their boobies show nor adorn themselves with gaudy and excessive jewelry. In all my thirty years as a Christian, that simply is not an issue in God's household. The occasional female visitor that shows up with not enough clothes is quickly counseled about appropriate dress and that's the last you see of them. They never come back. This has been the case in every church I've ever been in.
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Regarding the girls.
I've taught pre-teens and teens.
They dress differently for church than they do normally.

This is hypocrisy.
I agree that attire should be proper for church, but it should also be in their heart or it's just an outward appearance.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Just practice your liberty to consume alcohol in the privacy of your own home. What's so hard about that?
I know this doesn't apply to you, assuming that what you say is true, and that there are no circumstances in which alcohol would be a stumbling block to people where you live. But if/when you come back to the States you should do what Paul says and keep your liberty secret. Alcohol is a real problem over here. Countless ruined lives and families, and yet the church, in general, openly celebrates drinking.
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I also don't think the church should CELEBrATE drinking.
Can this be going on??

Here people are expected to be adults.
No danger sign if theres a step coming up.
No danger signs if you're hiking in the mountains.
No fences in public parks.
Etc.
You are responsible for yourself.

If a person is an alcoholic, they do NOT expect everyone not to drink for their benefit!
I meant a recovering alcoholic.

Wondering
 
civilwarbuff said:
He already has me:halo
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Look what Paul said was happening to the Corinthians who were not being thoughtful in their indulgences regarding the welfare of their fellow brethren:

"29For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep." (1 Corinthians 11:29-30 NASB)

If a Christian can be careless toward others in his eating and drinking so as to bring the Judgment of sickness and even death upon himself, how much more so in this matter of careless alcohol consumption? One walks by the Spirit when they consider how their behavior might affect other people. We despise people when we don't consider their welfare and we claim we don't have too because we have the right and freedom as Christians to do what we want, when we want. The penalty for such an attitude is quite severe. So, instead of parading our freedoms we should keep them hidden at home.

"21for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you." (1 Corinthians 11:21-22 NASB)
 
wondering said:
Also, I believe that a pastor cannot convict us of sin, that's the work of the Holy Spirit.
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Who's doing the convicting here?
21for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you." (1 Corinthians 11:21-22 NASB)
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Look what Paul said was happening to the Corinthians who were not being thoughtful in their indulgences toward the welfare of their fellow brethren:

"29For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep." (1 Corinthians 11:29-30 NASB)

If a Christian can be careless toward others in his eating and drinking so as to bring the Judgment of sickness and even death upon himself, how much more so in this matter of careless alcohol consumption? One walks by the Spirit when they consider how their behavior might affect other people. We despise people when we don't consider their welfare and we claim we don't have too because we have the right and freedom as Christians to do what we want, when we want. The penalty for such an attitude is quite severe. So, instead of parading our freedoms we should keep them hidden at home.

"21for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you." (1 Corinthians 11:21-22 NASB)
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You do realize Paul was not commenting on eating and drinking in general don't you? He was critical of the Corinthinians because they denigrated the entire meaning of communion into nothing more than a meal of excess as opposed to the rememberance of Messiahs sacrifice for us.
 
civilwarbuff said:
By the same token, is bringing a bottle of whiskey or wine and drinking it during church a problem anywhere? If so, I have not heard about it......
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Which begs the question:
Why don't you take an alcoholic drink with you to church?
I mean, you've been vehemently defending your right to drink anywhere, so why not? Really. It's an honest question.

Now maybe you can understand the point that Paul is making in Romans 14 and how it relates to alcohol consumption.
 
civilwarbuff said:
You do realize Paul was not commenting on eating and drinking in general don't you? He was critical of the Corinthinians because they denigrated the entire meaning of communion into nothing more than a meal of excess as opposed to the rememberance of Messiahs sacrifice for us.
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Are you going to purposely ignore the actual issue that brought judgment upon them?
They were not being considerate of others.

If you or I are also inconsiderate of others in what we do in front of them, we too will be subject to the judgment of sickness, even death. The subject at hand here is the matter of when and where we will drink alcohol. Will we be foolish enough to do that in a manner that brings God's judgment upon us? We certainly have the right to, don't we. That's what's being defended here. I say, have at it. God'll getcha. God has warned us.
 
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