[_ Old Earth _] Earths Age

[Free]

I believe that "truth" is getting as scarce as common sense.... or worse...running the chance of disappearing all together.

But, then again, Satan is the great deciever and deception is his most powerful weapon.

Very true. Some even believe the Earth is flat.

 

[brujaq]

It is based on what you interpret the writings in the Bible and your interpretation could be wrong.


And that applies to you too, not just those you disagree with.


Don't forget that there are many Christians that are scientists, both evolutionists and non-evolutionists. Why should they be called liars by you when they believe just as sincerely their understanding of science and Scripture?

Ha , the Word says all scripture is God breathed 2 Timothy 3:16 and I'm not smart enough to make it say what I personally want it to .. And I said ''the science community includes as big a bunch of liars as exists today '' not all .. .. If I take the Word of God at face value or some scientists I think we're safe ..

 

[Free]

Ha , the Word says all scripture is God breathed 2 Timothy 3:16

Which is entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

and I'm not smart enough to make it say what I personally want it to

Being smart or not has nothing to do with it; bias, presupposition, and assumption do. When you read something (anything), you interpret it. There is no way around this fact.

. And I said ''the science community includes as big a bunch of liars as exists today '' not all ..

I know. But you inevitably include Christians in that category, unless you want to stand in contradiction and say that those that believe in evolution or an old earth aren't lying.

.. If I take the Word of God at face value or some scientists I think we're safe ..

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

 

[Jacks Bratt]

Very true. Some even believe the Earth is flat.

Some even believe that we.... ah...... off topic.

 

[Jacks Bratt]

Ha , the Word says all scripture is God breathed 2 Timothy 3:16 and I'm not smart enough to make it say what I personally want it to .. And I said ''the science community includes as big a bunch of liars as exists today '' not all .. .. If I take the Word of God at face value or some scientists I think we're safe ..

I agree.

Not only that but the Bible is written so that you don't need an engineering degree or a doctorate in order to understand what it is saying.

Yes, you can go deeper into the Bible and fine some amazing parallels, foreshadowing and other complex wisdom in the scriptures. But, as it is written and can be read by a young person....it is easy to read and understand.

I find that the more educated people become, the more easily it is for them to lose the ability to just read the Bible and listen to what it is saying.

These educated people, I find, are clouded by the overwhelming amount of anti Christian teaching of academia , and they end up trying to fit the bible in line with the assumptions, musings, extrapolations and exagerations of the observations and deductions of mere men, instead of using the Biblical account as the benchmark and guide for what is truth.

 

[brujaq]

Which is entirely irrelevant to the discussion.


Being smart or not has nothing to do with it; bias, presupposition, and assumption do. When you read something (anything), you interpret it. There is no way around this fact.


I know. But you inevitably include Christians in that category, unless you want to stand in contradiction and say that those that believe in evolution or an old earth aren't lying.


I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Old Earth and evolution is in contradiction to the Word , 2 Timothy 3:16 is the standard by which we judge and in righteousness and some scientists who believe and work within the confines of the written Word of God are safe .. If I quote or believe Gods Word then I am not lying because it is what he says, not me .. It is quite comical to me to watch folks contend with God ..

 

[Free]

Old Earth and evolution is in contradiction to the Word , 2 Timothy 3:16 is the standard by which we judge and in righteousness and some scientists who believe and work within the confines of the written Word of God are safe .. If I quote or believe Gods Word then I am not lying because it is what he says, not me .. It is quite comical to me to watch folks contend with God ..

But, again, that is all based on your interpretation of what the Bible says. And so my point still stands that you are calling some Christian scientists liars based on your interpretation.

 

[Jacks Bratt]

But, again, that is all based on your interpretation of what the Bible says. And so my point still stands that you are calling some Christian scientists liars based on your interpretation.

Interesting point.

So, in reference to that, how would you interpret this:

Exodus 20:11 King James Version (KJV)

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Like I said, the Bible is pretty simple. A child can read it and understand it.

It is adults that search and dissect and twist and spin, all in order to fit their own finite concepts. These "educated" that I spoke of before, hold their own concepts above those that are words of the Creator Himself.

So, let's dissect this a bit......

Verse 1 of this chapter states:

Exodus 20:1 King James Version (KJV)

20 And God spake all these words, saying,

Are we clear, then, that God is speaking these words. Nothing indicates that the speaker changes to anyone else.

Next: Verse 19, the people don't want God to speak anymore. In verse 20 Moses begins to speak.

19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.

Just to confirm... we see this:

Deuteronomy 9:10 King James Version (KJV)

10 And the Lord delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the Lord spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

This is Moses, talking to the people, about the event of Exodus 20. Notice... if you will... not only did God speak those words but wrote them Himself.

So, I ask you again..... how do you interpret these scriptures?

 

[Runner]

So, the genealogies are not "pious fictions" but the literary devices of skilled writers.

The distinction between "pious fictions" and "literary devices of skilled writers" is what we lawyers call "a distinction without a difference." But you have underscored my point, thanks.

 

[Jim Parker]

The distinction between "pious fictions" and "literary devices of skilled writers" is what we lawyers call "a distinction without a difference." But you have underscored my point, thanks.

Your being a lawyer, I would have hoped that you would have some level of understanding of literature and literary devices and certainly the difference between "pious fiction" and a standard literary device. (in this case, for ancient near eastern literature; the genealogy)
The genealogy was an expected part of the literature of the ancient near east.

But, good news!
You can purchase a copy of A Dictionary of Literary Devices: Gradus, A-Z (Heritage) and Farnsworth's Classical English Rhetoric on Amazon.
You can also get a copy of Before Abraham Was by Kikowada and Quin. It's an excellent study of a unitary reading of Genesis 1-11.

Happy reading!

 

[brujaq]

But, again, that is all based on your interpretation of what the Bible says. And so my point still stands that you are calling some Christian scientists liars based on your interpretation.

Well the Word says there are signs that follow those who believe and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, then faith becomes substance .. If you don't have a standard or anchor , a definitive working point then how will you know when you arrive, it's called being grounded in the Word .. I think folks shut doors with unbelief and there is where knowledge of truth ends .. I was as sure as evolution before I got saved as I am now that it is a lie .. But lets face it , you can't help what you believe unless the spiritual strongholds are removed and God opens the doors . And please don't take that the wrong way ..

 

[Runner]

Your being a lawyer, I would have hoped that you would have some level of understanding of literature and literary devices and certainly the difference between "pious fiction" and a standard literary device. (in this case, for ancient near eastern literature; the genealogy)
The genealogy was an expected part of the literature of the ancient near east.

But, good news!
You can purchase a copy of A Dictionary of Literary Devices: Gradus, A-Z (Heritage) and Farnsworth's Classical English Rhetoric on Amazon.
You can also get a copy of Before Abraham Was by Kikowada and Quin. It's an excellent study of a unitary reading of Genesis 1-11.

Happy reading!

News flash: I have written and published both fiction and non-fiction. I also know a little bit about literature, thanks. I am trying to adopt a Runner Persona that is somewhat less snarky than his former incarnation, but you seem to have a propensity to "lecture" people who are pretty obviously not in need of lecturing. I would not mention this if numerous others had not done so as well.

The point is, the authors of Matthew and Luke did not have the faintest idea of Jesus' genealogy back to Adam or Abraham. They invented these genealogies, as a standard literary device (as you say), for the benefit of their Jewish readers because the genealogies fulfilled Jewish expectations and prophecies. For those who do not already Know Everything, this is a good overview of what the author calls the cultural, literary and theological purposes of Matthew's genealogy: https://davidschrock.com/2013/07/16...mbling-block-or-stepping-stone-matthew-11-17/.

You choose to characterize this as a "literary device" because it sounds more palatable than "pious fiction," which is defined as "In religion, a narrative that is presented as true by the author, but is considered by others to be fictional albeit produced with an altruistic motivation." There is no essential difference except that, to some, "literary device" sounds more reverential than "pious fiction" just as "biblical account" sounds more reverential than "myth" and "myth" sounds more reverential than "tale."

A genealogy that is not factually true is not a genealogy. It is akin to a myth, an account that is not "true" in a historical sense but makes a deeper point. To call a genealogy a "literary device" is to acknowledge that it is not factually true; otherwise, we would simply call it a genealogy and move on to its theological implications. To read it woodenly, as though it actually were factually true, is to engage in the same sort of thinking that leads to Young Earth Creationism, which is why the defenders of these "genealogies" are forced to do the same sort of tap-dancing that Young Earthers do. And, of course, these piously fictional "genealogies" serve as the very foundation of Young Earth Creationism.

But, hey, if someone's faith hinges on the earth having been created 6,000 years ago and on Hezron being the father of Ram, Ram being the father of Amminadab, Amminadab being the father of Nahshon and Nahshon the father of Salmon, far be it from me to try to persuade him otherwise.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Holy "to the man" argument Batman! Did you see that? Instead of addressing the issues head on we have the aged old ad hominem argument raising it's ugly head.

What should we do Batman???

 

[brujaq]

News flash: I have written and published both fiction and non-fiction. I also know a little bit about literature, thanks. I am trying to adopt a Runner Persona that is somewhat less snarky than his former incarnation, but you seem to have a propensity to "lecture" people who are pretty obviously not in need of lecturing. I would not mention this if numerous others had not done so as well.

The point is, the authors of Matthew and Luke did not have the faintest idea of Jesus' genealogy back to Adam or Abraham. They invented these genealogies, as a standard literary device (as you say), for the benefit of their Jewish readers because the genealogies fulfilled Jewish expectations and prophecies. For those who do not already Know Everything, this is a good overview of what the author calls the cultural, literary and theological purposes of Matthew's genealogy: https://davidschrock.com/2013/07/16...mbling-block-or-stepping-stone-matthew-11-17/.

You choose to characterize this as a "literary device" because it sounds more palatable than "pious fiction," which is defined as "In religion, a narrative that is presented as true by the author, but is considered by others to be fictional albeit produced with an altruistic motivation." There is no essential difference except that, to some, "literary device" sounds more reverential than "pious fiction" just as "biblical account" sounds more reverential than "myth" and "myth" sounds more reverential than "tale."

A genealogy that is not factually true is not a genealogy. It is akin to a myth, an account that is not "true" in a historical sense but makes a deeper point. To call a genealogy a "literary device" is to acknowledge that it is not factually true; otherwise, we would simply call it a genealogy and move on to its theological implications. To read it woodenly, as though it actually were factually true, is to engage in the same sort of thinking that leads to Young Earth Creationism, which is why the defenders of these "genealogies" are forced to do the same sort of tap-dancing that Young Earthers do. And, of course, these piously fictional "genealogies" serve as the very foundation of Young Earth Creationism.

But, hey, if someone's faith hinges on the earth having been created 6,000 years ago and on Hezron being the father of Ram, Ram being the father of Amminadab, Amminadab being the father of Nahshon and Nahshon the father of Salmon, far be it from me to try to persuade him otherwise.

''Tap dancing''

 

[Papa Zoom]

No one can say how old the earth is as even science can not agree with its age using carbon dating. It might be possible to date the generations of man if we backtrack through all the generations ending with Adam, but that would seem impossible since all of us are that generation of Adam. We could even try to use the timeline of Noah and the flood, but yet that will bring no conclusion.

Moses give us the account of the creation events of God in Genesis Chapter 1,2 before God created man, but there is no evidence anywhere in scripture how long each day was or how old the earth is. Genesis 1:1-31; 2:1-3 we read the first six accounts of creation as each part that was finished God saw that it was good as the evening and morning only numbered the days it took, but gives no actual timing of how long each day could have been. I believe each day from evening to morning are only symbolic of a certain length of time it took God to create the heaven and the earth before He created man as God's timing is not the same as our timing, Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

God calls each day by number from day one to day six as being evening and morning, but on the seventh day Moses only mentions the word day, but no closing of it as in evening. It was only called a day that God rested from all His work. God set it apart as a day (time) of rest as it has no ending like that of the time of rest when God ushers down the new Jerusalem, Rev 21 and we will have eternal rest without end. There is no mention of it being a Sabbath day rest, but only a day that God set apart as all His work was finished. The seventh day of rest has no ending and if we read Hebrews 4:1-10 this will teach us what Gods day of rest is for those who are faithful to Him and walk in obedience.

Strong's Exhausted Concordance;

The Hebrew word "yowm", Hebrew #3117, translated "day" in English means a day from sunrise to sunset, a space of time defined by an associated term, season, a process of time as in other times (day)

The Hebrew word "ereb", Hebrew #6153, translated "evening" also means dusk, evening, night.

The Hebrew word "boqer", Hebrew #1242, translated "morning" also means dawn, breaking of day, morning with possible metaphoric usage. Our English expression: "The dawning of an age" serves to illustrate this point. The intended meaning of the word should be determined from the context.

Here's what I believe: The universe is billions of years old. Here's also what I believe, evolution is real (look at the strain of flu and how it evolves every year). Here's another: God created everything in the universe/world by the Word of His mouth. Also: Darwinian Evolution is most certainly false. How about this one: Adam and Eve weren't alone. And their names weren't really Adam and Eve. ;)

Finally, I could be wrong on the age of the earth and just about any other speculation of mine. But it's not essential to my walk with God. It's more a curiosity and I don't mind thinking about things outside the box.

I used to believe in a young earth but not more. And the Bible won't help with the question, it doesn't tell us the age of the earth. :/

 

[brujaq]

Here's what I believe: The universe is billions of years old. Here's also what I believe, evolution is real (look at the strain of flu and how it evolves every year). Here's another: God created everything in the universe/world by the Word of His mouth. Also: Darwinian Evolution is most certainly false. How about this one: Adam and Eve weren't alone. And their names weren't really Adam and Eve. ;)

Finally, I could be wrong on the age of the earth and just about any other speculation of mine. But it's not essential to my walk with God. It's more a curiosity and I don't mind thinking about things outside the box.

I used to believe in a young earth but not more. And the Bible won't help with the question, it doesn't tell us the age of the earth. :/

Well , it tells us ''tap dancers''

 

[chessman]

the Bible won't help with the question, it doesn't tell us the age of the earth.

Not in years, but it does say the Earth is “old”, even in David’s day and Job’s ‘day’.

“Yahweh possessed me, the first of his ways, before his acts of old.​

Proverbs 8:22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Proverbs 8:22&version=LEB

“Did you know this from of old, since the setting of the human being on earth,​

Job 20:4 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Job 20:4&version=LEB

​

 

[Papa Zoom]

Well , it tells us ''tap dancers''

I do not know what this means. I hope it is good.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Not in years, but it does say the Earth is “old”, even in David’s day and Job’s ‘day’.

“Yahweh possessed me, the first of his ways, before his acts of old.​

Proverbs 8:22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Proverbs 8:22&version=LEB

“Did you know this from of old, since the setting of the human being on earth,​

Job 20:4 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Job 20:4&version=LEB

Well, those are idioms, from of old meaning in many days past I think. And "the old days" is relative. For me, it's the 50's and 60's. To my kids it's the 70's and 80's. To my 95 year old mom......

 

[brujaq]

Not in years, but it does say the Earth is “old”, even in David’s day and Job’s ‘day’.

“Yahweh possessed me, the first of his ways, before his acts of old.​

Proverbs 8:22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Proverbs 8:22&version=LEB

“Did you know this from of old, since the setting of the human being on earth,​

Job 20:4 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Job 20:4&version=LEB

​

I'm old