[_ Old Earth _] Earths Age

[for_his_glory]

Over 30,000 Union and nearly 26,000 Confederate prisoners died in captivity. Just over 12% of the captives in Northern prisons died, compared to 15.5% for Southern prisons. (reports from "Harper's Weekly "1863-64; illustrated)

Note that the South was subjected to a blockade by the north which resulted in a scarcity of all resources for everyone in the south, military and civilian. (Much like Germany in WW1.)

iakov the fool

Like they say "war is hell for both sides" , but now back to topic.

 

[Jacks Bratt]

Do you mean:
Exodus 20:11 King James Version (KJV) "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." ?

That reference (to 6 days) is given as part of the teaching on keeping the Sabbath. It is a theological statement, not an historic statement.

On the contrary... if you look at the references that I gave, that statement is part of the teaching that God Himself wrote in the tablet with His own finger. It is not a theological statement. It is God's own written words.

I do not believe that the report in Gen 1:1-2:3 of the creation of the universe being accomplished in six, 24-hour days is to be taken as a literal, historic fact. It is my view that Gen 1:1-2:3 is the genealogy of the heavens and the earth which introduces the story of creation and the relationship between God and man which begins at Gen 2:4.

Those two portions are two different presentations of the exact same event. One is a chronological statement of the events the other is a detailed outline of portions of it.

If it were a literal, historic fact, then we would find that six day (yowm) creation of Gen 1:1-23 is contradicted by Gen 2:4 which states that the creation was accomplished in ONE day (yowm).

Not really, see below... there are no contradictions.

Strong's #3117: yowm (pronounced yome)
from an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figurative (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverb):--age, + always, + chronicals, continually(-ance), daily, ((birth-), each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever(-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (... live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year(-ly), + younger.

It also seems to me that the point to be understood is that God, in fact, did create the heavens and the earth. (Rather than the orthodox scientific fairy tale that the universe created itself from a single point that was so small as to have no dimensions.)

I agree.

 

[for_his_glory]

Moses calls it the seventh day in Genesis 2:3, but in Exodus 20:11 calls it the seventh day and sabbath day after receiving the commandments on Mt. Sinai, Exodus 20:8.

The Sabbath talked about in Genesis 2:1-3 and Exodus 20:8-11 is Gods day of rest from all the work He accomplished that week. God hand wrote the commandment on tablet of stone as a day to keep holy in remembrance of all He created that was good and rested from all His work as God sanctified it as a day of rest. It wasn't that God was tired, but that in a sense it's like taking a day off to do nothing as you finished your work for the week.

In Matthew 12:1-13 the Pharisees tried to accuse Jesus and His disciples of breaking the Sabbath and working that day as the disciples pluck some corn to eat while they were walking with Jesus in the field and that Jesus healing on the Sabbath, especially in the synagogue, was that of works, but Jesus told them it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath, which is different then working.

Even with all of this of weeks, days and our 24 hour period of timing Moses calls the accounts of days as being evening and morning in Genesis 1:1-31 and that is certainly not a 24 hour period for what man calls a day so we are back to no one can know the age of the earth, but can speculate. Man's timing is not the same as God's timing.

 

[brujaq]

Did God say ''from the evening to the morning'' or just evening and morning was the day ..

 

[Jim Parker]

On the contrary... if you look at the references that I gave, that statement is part of the teaching that God Himself wrote in the tablet with His own finger. It is not a theological statement. It is God's own written words.

OK
I was responding to "So, in reference to that, how would you interpret this:
Exodus 20:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

Those two portions are two different presentations of the exact same event. One is a chronological statement of the events the other is a detailed outline of portions of it.

That doesn't solve the contradiction of Genesis 1:1-2:3 reporting creation taking six days (YOWM) and Genesis 2:4 reporting only one day. (YOWM)
The apparent contradiction is resolved if both uses of the word "day"(YOWM) are understood to describe an indefinite period of time.
That works for me.
Individual mileage may vary.

iakov the fool

 

[Jacks Bratt]

Did God say ''from the evening to the morning'' or just evening and morning was the day ..

NIV says "And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day."

KJV says "And the evening and the morning were the first day."

NKJV says"So the evening and the morning were the first day."

TLB says "Together they formed the first day. This all happened on the second day.This all occurred on the third day. "

 

[Jacks Bratt]

OK
I was responding to "So, in reference to that, how would you interpret this:
Exodus 20:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

Yes, I understand that. However, if we dig into the scripture a bit more, we find that those words were actually written by our creator into the stone tablet that contains the ten commandments.

This is why I have stated that they are not a theological statement.

That doesn't solve the contradiction of Genesis 1:1-2:3 reporting creation taking six days (YOWM) and Genesis 2:4 reporting only one day. (YOWM)
The apparent contradiction is resolved if both uses of the word "day"(YOWM) are understood to describe an indefinite period of time.
That works for me.
Individual mileage may vary.

iakov the fool

Sorry, but I'm not getting your point here. My apologies.

 

[Jacks Bratt]

Moses calls it the seventh day in Genesis 2:3, but in Exodus 20:11 calls it the seventh day and sabbath day after receiving the commandments on Mt. Sinai, Exodus 20:8.

The Sabbath talked about in Genesis 2:1-3 and Exodus 20:8-11 is Gods day of rest from all the work He accomplished that week. God hand wrote the commandment on tablet of stone as a day to keep holy in remembrance of all He created that was good and rested from all His work as God sanctified it as a day of rest. It wasn't that God was tired, but that in a sense it's like taking a day off to do nothing as you finished your work for the week.

In Matthew 12:1-13 the Pharisees tried to accuse Jesus and His disciples of breaking the Sabbath and working that day as the disciples pluck some corn to eat while they were walking with Jesus in the field and that Jesus healing on the Sabbath, especially in the synagogue, was that of works, but Jesus told them it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath, which is different then working.

Even with all of this of weeks, days and our 24 hour period of timing Moses calls the accounts of days as being evening and morning in Genesis 1:1-31 and that is certainly not a 24 hour period for what man calls a day so we are back to no one can know the age of the earth, but can speculate. Man's timing is not the same as God's timing.

That is fine if you are comfortable with that way of thinking.

For me, I'll stick with the belief that God created everything in six literal days. It is not outside of His abilities and the way it is written suggests that this is exactly the way it happened.

So, If He was absolutely capable and then told us that He did it that way... why would I go looking for some other conceptual explanation.

If my kid comes home and says that he got 100% on a math test I may doubt it. If he shows me the written paper, then it becomes fact... In this case God has one better........ He is perfectly capable and the record shows that He did it.

 

[for_his_glory]

Did God say ''from the evening to the morning'' or just evening and morning was the day ..

Genesis 1:1-31 And the evening and the morning was the numbering of His days from the first to the sixth

 

[for_his_glory]

That is fine if you are comfortable with that way of thinking.

For me, I'll stick with the belief that God created everything in six literal days. It is not outside of His abilities and the way it is written suggests that this is exactly the way it happened.

So, If He was absolutely capable and then told us that He did it that way... why would I go looking for some other conceptual explanation.

If my kid comes home and says that he got 100% on a math test I may doubt it. If he shows me the written paper, then it becomes fact... In this case God has one better........ He is perfectly capable and the record shows that He did it.

I doubt not God's ability of time as it being His, but how do we equate our numbering of time as day, week, month and year as being His. We number by how long it takes the earth to travel around the sun as being a 24 hour period, but it also says, evening to morning as I only study from the KJV and the Jerusalem Bible which says, evening came and morning came: the first day........and so on to the sixth. I think it's just one of those conundrums we may never know.

 

[Jacks Bratt]

I doubt not God's ability of time as it being His, but how do we equate our numbering of time as day, week, month and year as being His. We number by how long it takes the earth to travel around the sun as being a 24 hour period, but it also says, evening to morning as I only study from the KJV and the Jerusalem Bible which says, evening came and morning came: the first day........and so on to the sixth. I think it's just one of those conundrums we may never know.

Like I said, I fault you not for saying you will never know.

However for me and me alone here..... He said six days, I will accept six days. He said He walked on the water, He said five loaves and two fish, It says He healed the girl from afar, it says the lady touched His garment and was healed.....


I doubt none of this as I have no reason to doubt it.

 

[brujaq]

There was day ''light'' then dark began to end that day .. Day is however many hrs of daylight divided by 12 to get the length of each hr depending on season and dark was divided in 4 watches also depending on season with first light beginning the next day .. Right ? .. Genesis 1:14
Joshua 6:1-15

 

[for_his_glory]

Like I said, I fault you not for saying you will never know.

However for me and me alone here..... He said six days, I will accept six days. He said He walked on the water, He said five loaves and two fish, It says He healed the girl from afar, it says the lady touched His garment and was healed.....


I doubt none of this as I have no reason to doubt it.

I don't doubt the things Jesus did either, but what does that have to do with the earth's age? Six days could be literal, but how can we truly know for positive as I don't think we can as allI see is speculation in the calculations. What was the length of time between creating the heavens and the earth and everything in it and then Adam being created? Can we truly know?

 

[for_his_glory]

There was day ''light'' then dark began to end that day .. Day is however many hrs of daylight divided by 12 to get the length of each hr depending on season and dark was divided in 4 watches also depending on season with first light beginning the next day .. Right ? .. Genesis 1:14
Joshua 6:1-15

I have to disagree as dark came before the light and evening and the morning were the first day according to the KJV which was before all these newer translations.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

 

[Jim Parker]

Yes, I understand that. However, if we dig into the scripture a bit more, we find that those words were actually written by our creator into the stone tablet that contains the ten commandments.

OK, show me where. As far as I know, only the 10 commandments were written in the stone tablets.

This is why I have stated that they are not a theological statement.

The 10 commandments are most definitely a theological statement. They are a kind of summary of the 613 commandments, laws, regulations, statutes, etc. that comprise the Law.

Sorry, but I'm not getting your point here. My apologies.

AH. Mea culpa.
If, in Genesis one, we give the word YOWM the meaning of "a 24 hour period or day" then, to be consistent, we must give the same word (YOWM) the same meaning at Gen 2:4.
Doing that creates a conflict. If we use the 24-hour day meaning of YOWM then Genesis 1 describes the creation as taking place over 6, 24-hour days but Genesis 2:4 describes the creation as taking place in ONE, 24-hour day.
The conflict is easily resolved by assigning a meaning of "an unspecified period of time" to the word YOWM.

iakov the fool

 

[brujaq]

I have to disagree as dark came before the light and evening and the morning were the first day according to the KJV which was before all these newer translations.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

I have no problem with dark being first, my point is day and night are separate even though we call 24hrs a full day ..Evening to morning is the same as morning to evening to me or any part of the day is day is all I'm saying .. Just seems to me God was specific and makes me want to take closer looks sometimes .. We know evening to morning makes no sense unless you look at it as the same as morning to evening the day .. Kinda like if I receive and set a 50,000 gallon tank with a sight glass 2 ft too high, so I build a set of steps 2 ft high for the short operator, I lowered the sight glass so to speak ..

 

[for_his_glory]

I have no problem with dark being first, my point is day and night are separate even though we call 24hrs a full day ..Evening to morning is the same as morning to evening to me or any part of the day is day is all I'm saying .. Just seems to me God was specific and makes me want to take closer looks sometimes .. We know evening to morning makes no sense unless you look at it as the same as morning to evening the day .. Kinda like if I receive and set a 50,000 gallon tank with a sight glass 2 ft too high, so I build a set of steps 2 ft high for the short operator, I lowered the sight glass so to speak ..

Our days that include morning to morning or evening to evening are a 24 hour period day as we can all agree with that, but yet can we truly understand why God would use evening to morning calling it a day, I think we can using this theory. It's like saying I worked today from 9am to 5pm, but yet not the full 24 hour period. Evening to morning is only the time period He worked that day, but not a 24 hour day.

 

[Jacks Bratt]

OK, show me where. As far as I know, only the 10 commandments were written in the stone tablets.

From what Moses says here:

Deuteronomy 9:10 King James Version (KJV)

10 And the Lord delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the Lord spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

There was more written there than just a list of 10 laws. We just assume that it is just a list. However, from what Moses says, all the words were written.

 

[Jim Parker]

From what Moses says here:

Deuteronomy 9:10 King James Version (KJV)

10 And the Lord delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the Lord spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

There was more written there than just a list of 10 laws. We just assume that it is just a list. However, from what Moses says, all the words were written.

NKJV
Exo 34:28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Deu 10:2 ‘And I will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke; and you shall put them in the ark.'

Deu 31:24-26 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying: “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;..."

So the two tablets had only the 10 commandments written on them and were placed in the ark of the covenant.
The book of the law (613 laws) was placed beside the ark of the covenant.

 

[brujaq]

From what Moses says here:

Deuteronomy 9:10 King James Version (KJV)

10 And the Lord delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the Lord spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

There was more written there than just a list of 10 laws. We just assume that it is just a list. However, from what Moses says, all the words were written.

Agree , Deuteronomy 10:1-2 and 3-5 pretty simple unless I'm missing something