Bible Study Ecclesiastes, A Bible Study by Chopper & Reba.

[Jethro Bodine]

I've actually been pondering that verse lately. I read somewhere that to "hate" in a lot of Biblical references means to reject. So, God "hated" Esau in that he rejected him. Makes sense to me.

It does. I think that's an element of it for sure.

Once many years ago resentment rose up in me for my parents and siblings that I moved to be close by in Florida. It wasn't that I hated them as I would hate, oh, say Rollo for example (, I'm kidding, but you get what I'm driving at), but I resented being with them instead of my church family. I attended a small tight-knit congregation of believers and I actually preferred to be in church with them instead of doing family gatherings with my family when the two conflicted. I then realized Jesus meant it very literally when he said we were to hate our mother and father and brothers and sisters.

And so it is with my life. Sometimes I resent and therefore hate how my life gets in the way of my joy and life in Christ. But it's not hate in the sense we humans are accustomed to tossing that around. Because I promise you I still love my body and take care of it accordingly. But I hate it for how it confounds and interferes with my love for God's presence and fellowship.

I think the Book of Ecclesiastes is beautiful and neglected. It probably isn't good for anybody under 25. I'm 31, and I think I don't see it the same way I will in 10, 15, 20 years.

If you're like me, by the time you're in your early forties you'll get it. I mean really get it. By then you'll realize fully how baseless and empty and fleeting the hopes and dreams and promises are of this life. Especially if you're a conservative right-winger .

To me, the point is...Solomon lived a life of excess and had everything at his finger tips, and was left...empty. I think that more churches should emphasize The Book of Ecclesiastes in the US, because now even the middle classes have waaay more stuff and experiences than in years, generations past. We're all encouraged to live The American Dream. Some can't make a go of it, some do...only to find it can easily be The American Nightmare, or...The Great American Disillusionment, lol.

I agree with every point here, but what I've noticed is God pretty much has to do the humbling through various circumstances for his people to give up on the excesses that are so readily available to us in this society. I don't see Christians doing it out of choice, but rather out of necessity, spurred on by God's loving discipline in the form of all kinds of various sicknesses, relational troubles, and financial losses.

Solomon's wisdom, I think, encourages everybody to take a step back and ponder for a minute: what's this all about?

It does. But it's God's active intervention in the form of sufferings that makes us actually adapt his wisdom to our lives.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When your body is young you think a little different than when it gets old.

Bingo!
That's what made me realize all the arrogance of 'what I want and desire in this life' was really just what my flesh body was programmed to long for and desire. And because that was true, how futile and vain what the body accomplishes is. Take away the body and you ain't got much left.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Maybe there's another reason to 1:18.
If you look at it as having worldly wisdom, understanding what is going on around you, it can bring great inner sorrow, and knowledge that puffs us up that only causes grief.
1 Corinthians 8:1 says; Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.

Is there something here do you think?

Basicly what I said in a different way.

 

[th1b.taylor]

This true.
How do you remember 700 anniversaries?

LOL! Point!

 

[GodsGrace]

I would liken that statement in a way to that in Revelation where he is told to eat the book, and when he did it was sweet as honey in his mouth, but in his belly it was bitter.

There is the old statement: Ignorance is bliss!


Also consider:

Romans 7:9-10
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Ignorance is bliss. This is what came to mind.
But is it true?
Ignorance can also cause a lot of pain.

Depends how you want to look at it.
What if you're coughing and are ignorant of what it could be. You let it go and end up in a bad health situation.
Same goes for everything else - it's better to know.

Just a thought...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Basicly what I said in a different way.

Your version had M16's, cluster bombs, and napalm in it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Came in too late and don't have much time.

Knowledge vs Wisdom

Does knowledge increase wisdom?
Or is wisdom a knowledge apart and distinct?

So we study. Does that give us wisdom?

The more I learn, the less I know...
UB40 and others, U2.

We're learning THINGS, about things, but can we learn wisdom?
Or does it come from life experience?

The only concession I'm willing to make is that it's good to HEAR about wisdom.
For instance, if you read Proverbs it makes you AWARE of certain ideas - then if you come across them you can see them because you had previously heard. Otherwise you might be IGNORANT of them, as stated by EZRider.
Other than that, I think it comes with life experience.

Did we determine what vanity means?
Maybe that everything is vain - has no real value.
Maybe putting something above God?
Which would go to the first commandment.
God has the most value - everything else is of less value.

Must go.

Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ignorance is bliss. This is what came to mind.
But is it true?
Ignorance can also cause a lot of pain.

Depends how you want to look at it.
What if you're coughing and are ignorant of what it could be. You let it go and end up in a bad health situation.
Same goes for everything else - it's better to know.

Just a thought...

I tell people this all the time: I know what life is really all about now, therefore, I hate it.
I liked it better in my younger days when I blindly followed after my desires and ambitions.

 

[GodsGrace]

I tell people this all the time: I know what life is really all about now, therefore, I hate it.
I liked it better in my younger days when I blindly followed after my desires and ambitions.

Watching some good friends shout:
Let Me Out.

But we're here. Better make the best of it.

Did following your desires make you happy?
Did those fireworks leave you with something?
I don't think so.

W

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Does knowledge increase wisdom?
Or is wisdom a knowledge apart and distinct?

There is knowledge that is not necessarily wise.
Ask Adam and Eve.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So we study. Does that give us wisdom?

Depends on what you study.
If you study the satanic Bible you will learn all about that stuff, but that knowledge will hardly make you wise if you follow it.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Romance is the icing on the cake in marriage, but in our western society we have made romance the meat and potatoes of marriage. We have it backwards. That's why our society is so unhappy and dissatisfied with marriage. Romance was never meant to be the foundation of marriage. It's what you get when you have a firm foundation of loyalty, selflessness. But we decide to be loyal and selfless if we get the romance.

God didn't make the romance for nothing.
It is a major part of life for so many people and to miss out on it for other priorities is missing out on a very special gift from God.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Your vanity is showing

Hey teach...

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Ignorance is bliss. This is what came to mind.
But is it true?
Ignorance can also cause a lot of pain.

Depends how you want to look at it.
What if you're coughing and are ignorant of what it could be. You let it go and end up in a bad health situation.
Same goes for everything else - it's better to know.

Just a thought...

1 Corinthians 3:19;
"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight".

Isaiah 47:10;
"You're wisdom and knowledge mislead you".

This is worldly wisdom and knowledge.

 

[Deborah13]

Patriarchal culture...the wives for there for reproduction and political connections.

If I remember correctly Solomon's trouble started with the desire for wealth and power, chariots and horses. That was the reason he married all those foreign women to begin with. Then he had to keep them happy, couldn't have them running home to family complaining, so he built them temples to foreign gods. He got sucked into that, too. God had told him, no chariots and horses.

It really is pretty much the same as what Jethro Bodine has been saying about wanting the admiration of others.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Vanity is the experience of every single human alive, saved and unsaved.

We all have to work just to turn it all over to someone else--if we even have anything to turn over when we die, we all toil and labor at mundane things that we have to toil and labor at, but which will fade away with this life, but have to be done nonetheless, irregardless of our spiritual condition. We all start the day and do the things we need to do abefore the sun sets, just to turn right around and do it all again the next day, as if what we did yesterday didn't count for anything.

Perhaps a good understanding of 'vanity' has to be understood first. Something that is vain is something that in the end has no lasting usefulness or value. Life if FULL of those kinds of things. We instantly think of 'pride' as being vain, and it certainly is, but it is only one thing that is vain, having no lasting value in this life.

I think this is pretty right on with the subject matter of this book. Later on Solomon says to enjoy our lot in life, because that's what God gave us. But right now and throughout the book it speaks about the meaninglessness of life, and everything in it.

From reading the discussion so far, I'm filled with the idea of a very humbling message. Everything you are, everything you do, and everything you want or achieve are in the end meaningless like chasing the wind. In the end I don't think Solomon was a failure in any attribute, he was much more likely a success in obtaining anything he saw fit to do, accomplish, or have.

The perspective that everything is useless except our faith in God, I think is true. But I never could accept that as the main message of this book. It didn't really fit in my understanding. But humbling sentiments that nothing is of value and all vain, is a real humbling thought. That might be a main point in this book. Be humble.

 

[GodsGrace]

I see Solomon saying these things.

1. Love God.
2. Love your neighbor.
3. Try to find a job you love to do so that it doesn't feel like you have to go to work everyday, it's enjoyment instead.
4. Enjoy life. Eat, drink, and be merry for you know not what tomorrow brings.
5. This is man's lot in life.


It all sounds good to me.

Could you please clarify -
1 to 3 are good. Lucky if you could have no. 3 though.
As for no. 4. What if tomorrow has come. Does this diminish my love for God? If I can't enjoy life, do I depend on God more or less?

Ecclesiastes seems to be saying that eating, drinking and making merry is vain and will NOT bring any enjoyment.
Isn't it saying that this type of life will lead to failure, or vanity, or emptiness. I think the writer is saying that, of course, we're to do these things, but we shouldn't count on them for our happiness. I think our relationship with God is maybe the only giver of enjoyment in this life. Enjoy, joy. Is there a difference between happiness and joy?
Happiness is fleeting - joy is deep and lasting.

Is this too negative?

W

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree with every point here, but what I've noticed is God pretty much has to do the humbling through various circumstances for his people to give up on the excesses that are so readily available to us in this society. I don't see Christians doing it out of choice, but rather out of necessity, spurred on by God's loving discipline in the form of all kinds of various sicknesses, relational troubles, and financial losses.

It does. But it's God's active intervention in the form of sufferings that makes us actually adapt his wisdom to our lives.

I'm just so tired of hearing that God disciplines us, that He humbles us through various circumstances, that His discipline comes in the form of all kinds of sicknesses, relational troubles, and financial losses. That His intervention in the form of sufferings makes us adapt His wisdom to our lives.

What do you mean? God CAUSES all these things to happen to us to teach us lessons and wisdom, OR could we use these sufferings, which must surely come from the evil one, to our benefit? As in Romans 8:28.

W

 

[ezrider]

Ecclesiastes 1:17-18
And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.


I have not given my heart to know the vexation and madness of war. I have not given my heart to know the grief that comes to a musician from the adoration of fans. But I have given my heart to know and seek the wisdom that comes from the Lord. In this pursuit, I have experienced the madness and I now understand the folly. I have come to my sorrow, yet in my sorrow I find my peace confirmed.

When I came to the Lord many years ago, I gave myself to studying the scripture. I read it from cover to cover, beginning to the end before I ever turned to listen to what anyone else had to say. After a bit, I was introduce to a show broadcast on TV called The Shepherds Chapel. I particularly liked it because it presented teaching the scripture book by book, line upon line. Through this man’s teaching I developed an appreciation for deeper studies of the scriptures, and using a Strong’s Concordance to gain a better understanding of the languages, looking for those hidden truths that we hope to find in the word of God. I was convinced at the time of the doctrine he taught such as the serpent seed and such.

But the quest for the knowledge that lay hidden within the translations lead to madness when the words no longer meant what I trusted them to say, and the faith in my own understanding was shattered. I stopped watching the Shepherds Chapel, as I could no longer believe in the doctrines that he taught, and he became a false teacher to me, but at the same time the Lord took from me the desire to intently study the scripture as I had been. Tried though I did, but it was as if the pages were blank to me. So I had to let it go. But the Lord was never far from my heart, and If I could not look for understanding in the Bible, I was going to search for it in my heart; And there did I find much wisdom and much understanding. It was by searching my heart did I comprehend mercy and grace. It was by searching my heart that I perceived faith apart from knowledge.

It was by searching my heart that I have concluded an inescapable truth: I am a false teacher. I am a false teacher as is any other member that is posting. In fact I have accepted that all men are in fact false teachers. Now before anybody takes offense at that statement and closes their ears form hearing anything further, I would hope for you to consider first the context of my statement.

When I say that I am a false teacher, or if I were to say that Chopper is a false teacher, I am not identifying him as teaching some doctrine in error or teaching it falsely. What I am doing is identifying that neither Chopper nor myself are the Holy Spirit. The Scripture says we have no need that any man should teach us, for there is one that teaches us, and that is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the only True Teacher, all other teachers are false by comparison.

Now because I have accepted that I am no teacher, and never can be, what do I do with the wisdom I have received. Do I doubt it? Do I hold it in? Or do I share that which rests upon my heart and cast it into the wind knowing it comes from a heart that is tainted? But if I should willingly pour out that which I have received, then should I not trust that the power of the Holy Spirit to teach lies with those who hear the word spoken, rather than those who attempt to speak it.

Now I am sure that many will mock this, some might condemn it, but a few might receive it. But such as it is when a seed is sown. To give your heart to know and understand wisdom means to accept the Word of God as it comes to me, as one who sins, as liar and a hypocrite. This is the beginning of wisdom. You might begin to understand the madness and folly of this quest, for it comes from a dark place in our heart, which is a desire to be like the Most High.

For thou has said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I shall be like the Most High. Who exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as god, sits in the Temple of God, showing himself to be god.

The Son does not exalt himself above the Father. Adam was created a Son of God, yet his temptation was to obtain knowledge to become like the Most High. Which happens to be madness and utter folly.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ecclesiastes 1:17-18
And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

I have not given my heart to know the vexation and madness of war. I have not given my heart to know the grief that comes to a musician from the adoration of fans. But I have given my heart to know and seek the wisdom that comes from the Lord. In this pursuit, I have experienced the madness and I now understand the folly. I have come to my sorrow, yet in my sorrow I find my peace confirmed.

When I came to the Lord many years ago, I gave myself to studying the scripture. I read it from cover to cover, beginning to the end before I ever turned to listen to what anyone else had to say. After a bit, I was introduce to a show broadcast on TV called The Shepherds Chapel. I particularly liked it because it presented teaching the scripture book by book, line upon line. Through this man’s teaching I developed an appreciation for deeper studies of the scriptures, and using a Strong’s Concordance to gain a better understanding of the languages, looking for those hidden truths that we hope to find in the word of God. I was convinced at the time of the doctrine he taught such as the serpent seed and such.

But the quest for the knowledge that lay hidden within the translations lead to madness when the words no longer meant what I trusted them to say, and the faith in my own understanding was shattered. I stopped watching the Shepherds Chapel, as I could no longer believe in the doctrines that he taught, and he became a false teacher to me, but at the same time the Lord took from me the desire to intently study the scripture as I had been. Tried though I did, but it was as if the pages were blank to me. So I had to let it go. But the Lord was never far from my heart, and If I could not look for understanding in the Bible, I was going to search for it in my heart; And there did I find much wisdom and much understanding. It was by searching my heart did I comprehend mercy and grace. It was by searching my heart that I perceived faith apart from knowledge.

It was by searching my heart that I have concluded an inescapable truth: I am a false teacher. I am a false teacher as is any other member that is posting. In fact I have accepted that all men are in fact false teachers. Now before anybody takes offense at that statement and closes their ears form hearing anything further, I would hope for you to consider first the context of my statement.

When I say that I am a false teacher, or if I were to say that Chopper is a false teacher, I am not identifying him as teaching some doctrine in error or teaching it falsely. What I am doing is identifying that neither Chopper nor myself are the Holy Spirit. The Scripture says we have no need that any man should teach us, for there is one that teaches us, and that is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the only True Teacher, all other teachers are false by comparison.

Now because I have accepted that I am no teacher, and never can be, what do I do with the wisdom I have received. Do I doubt it? Do I hold it in? Or do I share that which rests upon my heart and cast it into the wind knowing it comes from a heart that is tainted? But if I should willingly pour out that which I have received, then should I not trust that the power of the Holy Spirit to teach lies with those who hear the word spoken, rather than those who attempt to speak it.

Now I am sure that many will mock this, some might condemn it, but a few might receive it. But such as it is when a seed is sown. To give your heart to know and understand wisdom means to accept the Word of God as it comes to me, as one who sins, as liar and a hypocrite. This is the beginning of wisdom. You might begin to understand the madness and folly of this quest, for it comes from a dark place in our heart, which is a desire to be like the Most High.

For thou has said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I shall be like the Most High. Who exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as god, sits in the Temple of God, showing himself to be god.

The Son does not exalt himself above the Father. Adam was created a Son of God, yet his temptation was to obtain knowledge to become like the Most High. Which happens to be madness and utter folly.

I agree with you EZ.
Sometimes we put a high premium on knowledge. Jesus isn't a classroom, He was a person to be followed.
We are not here to worship the bible (as Catholics think we do) but to worship Jesus, our Savior. It's the person (God) we worship, not the book that is only useful to teach us ABOUT Him, but does not let us KNOW Him unless through some private revelation.

When a revelation is received from the Holy Spirit it should not, IMHO, even be shared with others - unless for the specific reason of edification, not for teaching. I read much on these threads that I do not agree with, but I just pass it by and consider it of no importance. Why? Because in the end, we will not be judged by our doctrine but by the light we have received. Some doctrine goes directly against what the bible and mainline denominations teach. For example, I hear many times that we are to believe in Jesus ONLY and we will be saved. But that's not what HE said. He said we are to DO. So this is dangerous doctrine to teach - We cannot expect to come to believe in Jesus and then do nothing for the rest of our lives.

But most ideas I hear sound like some type of private revelation that God gave to a specific individual for their own purpose and which will not apply to anyone else. And, in this circumstance, we should not teach others what God has only for us.

I very much like what you have said.

W