Ephesians 2:10

[Jethro Bodine]

By this analogy a person would have to be both part of the "natural" kingdom of God, which you say is the law of Moses and the spiritual kingdom of God.

Yea, that's it, it finally makes sense.

First I need to adhere to Moses law, then I can be part of the spiritual nation and spiritual kingdom.

Shucks Jethro that sure does clear it up!

Thanks, JLB

I knew you were on the right track. And I can see how what you say could be misunderstood by 'works' gospel proponents.

The bottom line is, it isn't enough to try to come to God through repentance unto the law and 'birthed' into the kingdom and nation and people of God that way. You must be born 'again' by the Spirit through faith in Christ. That is the great stumbling block of the Jews, particularly devout, law abiding Jews.

The Jews took great confidence in their status as sons of Abraham as you pointed out, and their keeping of the law (particularly the law of circumcision). But Jesus said that is not what enables one to see the kingdom. You must be born again, from above, by the Spirit. Not just birthed into the kingdom birthed and baptized at the Red Sea into Moses and the law (later symbolized in John's baptism). But that is exactly what the Jews placed their confidence in.

 

[Butch5]

Abraham was justified (legally declared righteous) by his faith 'apart from works' (Romans 4:6). This is what Paul teaches in Romans.

James teaches us how Abraham was justified (shown to be legally righteous) by what he did.


Faith does indeed justify (make one righteous before God) all by itself, apart from righteous works. Righteous works are NOT the basis for being declared righteous. Faith in Christ the promised Son is. Righteous work being the evidence of the presence of the faith that justifies apart from works.

"The only thing that counts is faith..."

"...expressing itself in love." Galatians 5:6b)


Like the Galatians, some in the church have to be reminded to continue in the Spirit that they started out in (assuming they really did start out in the Spirit--faith in Christ's blood to forgive).

2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? (Galatians 3:2-4)


(And if you think the washing of water for purification,that is forgiveness, of sin is not a work of the law read Numbers 19.)

See the point? Are you saved because you believed the gospel, or because of the completion of righteous duties and behaviors? Many start out right--believing the simple message of right standing with God through Christ's blood--only to cave into the doing of righteous things as the basis for salvation.

I disagree. James says, I will show you my faith "out of my works". Faith comes out works. Abraham was not justified simply by believing some facts that God told him. He was justified by both believing and acting on those beliefs, that is the point that James is making.

Paul's statement in Romans 4 is a conclusion he's drawn based on his argument in chatper 3 that a man in not justified bythe works of the Mosaic Law. Paul is not saying that one is justified by believing only and not acting on it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I disagree. James says, I will show you my faith "out of my works". Faith comes out works.

How does that work? Abraham's faith didn't come out of his works. You're twisting James' sermon out of line with the example of Abraham he uses. Abraham had faith first. That is how God knew he really believed the promise he had made to him.

12 He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.†(Genesis 22:12 NASB)

See? Abraham's faith in God was known by what he did. In no way does the the account suggest Abraham's faith 'came out of' what he did.

Abraham was not justified simply by believing some facts that God told him.

Nobody is.

People are declared righteous for trusting in God's promise of a Son who will inherit the blessing on our behalf. And, like Abraham, we can tell who is trusting in that promise by what they do.

He was justified by both believing and acting on those beliefs, that is the point that James is making.

He was justified (MADE righteous) by believing God.

He was justified (SHOWN to be righteous) by what he did.

You HAVE to know there are two Biblical meanings of 'justify' to understand this. The context of Paul's and James' sermons indicate what meaning each is using. James is NOT saying Abraham was MADE righteous by what he did.

 

[JLB]

I knew you were on the right track. And I can see how what you say could be misunderstood by 'works' gospel proponents.

The bottom line is, it isn't enough to try to come to God through repentance unto the law and 'birthed' into the kingdom and nation and people of God that way. You must be born 'again' by the Spirit through faith in Christ. That is the great stumbling block of the Jews, particularly devout, law abiding Jews.

The Jews took great confidence in their status as sons of Abraham as you pointed out, and their keeping of the law (particularly the law of circumcision). But Jesus said that is not what enables one to see the kingdom. You must be born again, from above, by the Spirit. Not just birthed into the kingdom birthed and baptized at the Red Sea into Moses and the law (later symbolized in John's baptism). But that is exactly what the Jews placed their confidence in.

Brother,

If born of water means the Law, what you would have us to believe is:

In order to be "born again" we must first "baptized" in the law of Moses?

Or "keep" the law of Moses? That doesn't make any sense, at best!

To be born of water refers to natural child birth as Jesus stated.

JLB

 

[savedbygrace57]

butch

Faith apart from wokrs doesn't justify.

Neither do works apart from being born again, being a New Creation !

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Brother,

If born of water means the Law, what you would have us to believe is:

In order to be "born again" we must first "baptized" in the law of Moses?

Or "keep" the law of Moses? That doesn't make any sense, at best!

To be born of water refers to natural child birth as Jesus stated.

JLB

What you said needed explanation, which I should have done since I see you were patronizing me (I suspected that's what you were doing, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt).

Being born of water means baptism for repentance. That is what the Jews were doing at that time. Jesus said that (repentance unto the law of Moses) is not enough to see the kingdom. You must also be born of the Spirit.

Remember, John came to lead the way to Christ. Repentance in and of itself is not the way into the kingdom. It prepares the way into the kingdom.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What you said needed explanation, which I should have done since I see you were patronizing me (I suspected that's what you were doing, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt).

Being born of water means baptism for repentance. That is what the Jews were doing at that time. Jesus said that (repentance unto the law of Moses) is not enough to see the kingdom. You must also be born of the Spirit.

Remember, John came to lead the way to Christ. Repentance in and of itself is not the way into the kingdom. It prepares the way into the kingdom.

Edit:
This is probably a better way to explain it:

If a person turns to God in repentance in a public demonstration of water baptism (as was typically done through John's baptism), all you've done is birth a natural person into the kingdom of God. That person will not see the kingdom of God by virtue of repentance alone. But the person who puts their faith in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins is the one who is born 'again', spiritually. They are the ones who will see the kingdom, not those who are only born of repentance (born of 'water') into a natural kingdom of people. This is what the Jews whom John the baptist prepared for the coming of Christ needed to hear. John's baptism (repentance unto the law of Moses) is not enough to see the kingdom. You must be born 'again'.

 

[JLB]

John's baptism (repentance unto the law of Moses) is not enough to see the kingdom.

Repentance unto the Law of Moses?

Where in the world did you come up with that?

John's baptism was completely apart from the Law of Moses. It has nothing to do with the Law of Moses!

If baptism were a part of the Law of Moses, then it would have been in the Law!

The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. Luke 16:16

1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2 and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!" Matthew 3:1-2

From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Both John the Baptist and Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom!


John the Baptist did not baptize anyone into the Law of Moses!

Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!


Again, being born of water refers to natural child birth!


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Repentance unto the Law of Moses?

Where in the world did you come up with that?

"Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance." (Matthew 3: NIV1984)


For the Jew hearing John the Baptist make his proclamation of repentance, what's the measure of fruit they are to produce in preparation for the Day of Wrath?

John's baptism was completely apart from the Law of Moses. It has nothing to do with the Law of Moses!

"And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins." (Mark 1:4 NIV1984)

What defines sin for the people of Israel that they should have to repent of that sin and be forgiven?

If baptism were a part of the Law of Moses, then it would have been in the Law!

What makes you think the baptism itself is the repenting? Baptism is how they were told to repent of their sins and turn back to God. Getting baptized is not the repenting. Turning away from their sin (as known and defined by the only measure of sin they have-- the law of Moses) is the repenting.

And if you don't think purification from sin through the washing of water is not in the law you need to think again:

"...the water of cleansing; it is for purification from sin." (Numbers 19:9 NIV1984)

The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. Luke 16:16

1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2 and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!" Matthew 3:1-2

From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Both John the Baptist and Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom!


John the Baptist did not baptize anyone into the Law of Moses!

Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!

The forgiveness and cleansing of sin guilt through repentance of their violations of the law is what they were to do in anticipation of the coming kingdom. That effort of the flesh births natural, fleshly people of God, not spiritual people of God. Faith in Christ is what births spiritual people of God.

Again, being born of water refers to natural child birth!


JLB

I agree with those who say it's ridiculous for water to mean literal, physical, human birth. But water does refer to birth...the birthing of a natural, fleshly people through the fleshly effort of repentance. But Jesus says that birth does not enable one to see the kingdom. You must be born 'again', by the Spirit. Only those who turn to God in repentance and believe in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins can see the kingdom of God. Jewish repentance to the law of Moses is not enough. But repentance does accompany faith in Christ's blood. The faith being the basis for being declared righteous before God, not the fruit produced in accordance with repentance--no one can see the kingdom on the basis of that.


Water is a metaphor for repentance (a turning back to the commands of God)

Spirit is a metaphor for faith (in the blood of Christ to forgive sin).

"I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus." (Acts 10:21 NIV1984)

 

[JLB]

I agree with those who say it's ridiculous for water to mean literal, physical, human birth. But water does refer to birth...the birthing of a natural, fleshly people through the fleshly effort of repentance. But Jesus says that birth does not enable one to see the kingdom. You must be born 'again', by the Spirit. Only those who turn to God in repentance and believe in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins can see the kingdom of God. Jewish repentance to the law of Moses is not enough. But repentance does accompany faith in Christ's blood. The faith being the basis for being declared righteous before God, not the fruit produced in accordance with repentance--no one can see the kingdom on the basis of that.


Water is a metaphor for repentance (a turning back to the commands of God)

Spirit is a metaphor for faith (in the blood of Christ to forgive sin).

"I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus." (Acts 10:21 NIV1984)

Here is what you said before

By 'water' Jesus is referring to being part of a natural kingdom of God through the law of Moses, birthed and baptized at the Red Sea (1 Cor. 10:1). Law alone gives birth to a fleshly kingdom of God, but the Spirit gives birth to a spiritual nation and kingdom of God.

Again sir, John the baptist, WATER BAPTISM, was a baptism of repentance unto the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN!


Your statement below is wrong. It is false doctrine. Period!!!
By 'water' Jesus is referring to being part of a natural kingdom of God through the law of Moses,


JLB

 

[Butch5]

How does that work? Abraham's faith didn't come out of his works. You're twisting James' sermon out of line with the example of Abraham he uses. Abraham had faith first. That is how God knew he really believed the promise he had made to him.

Faith if it has no works is dead, can that faith save?

12 He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” (Genesis 22:12 NASB)

See? Abraham's faith in God was known by what he did. In no way does the the account suggest Abraham's faith 'came out of' what he did.

He believed God, and his works showed he believed what God had said and his actions along with his belief were faith

Nobody is.

People are declared righteous for trusting in God's promise of a Son who will inherit the blessing on our behalf. And, like Abraham, we can tell who is trusting in that promise by what they do.

What is the difference between someone who believes and isn't saved and one who believes and is saved?

He was justified (MADE righteous) by believing God.

He was justified (SHOWN to be righteous) by what he did.

That's not what James said. 'you see how faith worked with his works and by works faith was made complete.' A faith without works is incomplete, and cannot save.

You HAVE to know there are two Biblical meanings of 'justify' to understand this. The context of Paul's and James' sermons indicate what meaning each is using. James is NOT saying Abraham was MADE righteous by what he did.

No, that's only used to try and justify Luther's teaching on works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Faith if it has no works is dead, can that faith save?

On the Day of Wrath, 'no', because the faith that justifies apart from works is at work in us to fulfill the law 'love your neighbor as yourself'. If it never does that then that signifies a 'faith' that can not save. IOW, a 'faith' that is not really trusting in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin.

The mistake you make is thinking the work that comes from genuine justifying faith does the actual justifying. That's the equivalent of saying a person is made righteous by their works. That is the very definition of the 'works' gospel--that a person makes themselves righteous before God by doing righteous work. If that were true, Christ died for nothing. His blood is not needed to make a person righteous by removing their sin guilt. Works can do that. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The only way to be declared (made) righteous in God's sight is to have unrighteousness removed through the forgiveness of sin guilt by the blood of Christ. But there are many, many people who simply can not accept that. It's too unreasonable, or unfair, or illogical, or something. And so they persist in the belief that a person makes themselves righteous by doing good works, even rationalizing it by saying they are able to do that because of faith. Or insisting 'works' and 'faith' are the same thing.

He believed God, and his works showed he believed what God had said...

Yes! You're doing good.

...and his actions along with his belief were faith[/FONT]

Actions are not faith. Faith and behavior are two different things. Faith is believing in the blood of Christ. Your righteous behavior is how you act as a result of your faith in the blood of Christ.

What is the difference between someone who believes and isn't saved and one who believes and is saved?

What's the difference? Genuine faith--faith in the sufficiency of the blood to remove unrighteousness.

One really does trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins and is saved. The other believes God exists, and various facts about God and the gospel, thinking that is what it means to 'have faith' in God and be saved. Many, many people believe like that--like the demons believe, who know and believe God exists but who do not trust and believe in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness and cleansing of sin.

That's not what James said. 'you see how faith worked with his works and by works faith was made complete.' A faith without works is incomplete, and cannot save.

Faith in the blood of Christ to forgive sin that is not 'completed' with the corresponding action it compels a person to do is still faith in the blood of Christ to forgive. Just as joy is still joy, and knowledge is still knowledge, even if it is not yet made 'complete' by what makes those 'complete'.

No, that's only used to try and justify Luther's teaching on works.

You think so?

Tell me then, is the expert in the law quoted here trying to 'make' himself righteous by what he asked, or 'show' himself righteous by what he asked?

"29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”" (Luke NIV1984)

See? There really is two Biblical meanings for 'justify'. A simple look in the dictionary will confirm this. Just as the context of the verse above tells us what definition of 'justify' is being used (it's absurd to think he means to 'make' himself righteous), so the context of James' letter indicates which definition he means. And the context of Paul's letter shows what definition of 'justify' he is referring to.

Paul--a person is justified (made righteous) by what they believe.

James--a person is justified (shown to be righteous) by what they do.

 

[savedbygrace57]

There really is no sense in talking about good works and Salvation, and their role in it, unless you saying they are a effect of being a New Creation first. If we are saying good work are needed to become a New Creation, that is a Lie !

 

[awaken]

You listed a scripture "tag" and then quoted a verse not in the tag, then stated your opinion. I was hoping for better.


how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. Acts 10:38

Jesus said the works that I do you shall do also.


JLB

THat was going to be my question...what good works is he talking about? The works that Jesus did is the works that we are to be doing after salvation.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."


Can one be a Christian yet not walk in those good works which God before ordained Christians to walk in?

Can one go through their whole life with faith only and not ever do any works, yet still be saved?






(See also Mat 25:32-46)

No to both your questions. "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight. but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13