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Ephesians 2:10

B:

Yes, and look at all the church tradition that your are quoting from.

In John 3 the Lord Jesus speaks of the new birth as the movement of the Spirit which cannot be seen. It's not as if a so called priest by a gesture with water can somehow command it to happen.

You've got the words of Jesus, Paul, Peter, and the "first" 300 years of church history telling you that water baptism is part of being born again. Actaully, it can be shown that this was the churches belief up until after the Reformation. Teh amount of evidence is overwhelming.
 
You've got the words of Jesus, Paul, Peter, and the "first" 300 years of church history telling you that water baptism is part of being born again. Actaully, it can be shown that this was the churches belief up until after the Reformation. Teh amount of evidence is overwhelming.

B:

Utterly wrong. "[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3.8.

Where is a so called priest here commanding regeneration by a gesture?

Regeneration is a work dependent of the secret and silent work of the Holy Spirit.

Paul in Ephesians 5 speaks of the power of the Word of God: this is the washing of water by the Word.
[/FONT][/FONT]
 
If works are a mandate of faith, then one cannot have a true, saving biblical faith without those works/mandates.
You'll understand it better if you think in terms of the qualities of the Spirit instead of works as some understand that.


You say faith pulls the good works. My question has been this; can a Christian's faith save him if his faith is not pulling those good works of Eph 2:10?
I'd have to look again, but I'm not sure that's how you've been asking the question. Haven't you been saying that the works themselves do the saving? That is what the 'faith, apart from works' argument resists. Salvation is by faith, apart from the merit of works. The works being the evidence of a genuine salvation, not the actual agent of salvation. Faith is the agent of salvation, not works. Nobody can do anything to merit salvation. Only forgiveness of sin, and being made righteous that way, can save a person. You're kidding yourself if you think you can be good enough to be declared righteous through the merit of your own work.


No, meaning it takes faith + those good works = salvation.





No verse say 'faith only' justifies. Faith and faith only are two completely different things.
But I showed you where Paul said that only faith can justify. Faith that can be seen in it's love for others. That is the only thing that counts toward being made righteous--faith in Christ's blood. A faith that is signified by it's love for others. IOW, faith that changes a person into a new creation. But that hardly means the work of faith is what actually saves a person. Faith does that all by itself 'apart from works', as Paul says.


If faith only justifies, then you are saying a Christian can have faith only less those good works of Eph 2:10 and still be justified.
Yes.

Assuming good work is how one justifies themselves, how is it that you can have good works to be justified through in the moment you believe and trust in Christ's blood to forgive sins? Which brings me back to my question to you. How long are we allowed before we have to have some good works after we believe? Six minutes? Six days? Six years? That's why i say you'll understand this better if you think in terms of the fruit of the Spirit--the qualities of the Spirit--as the 'works' that signify the presence of the faith that justifies a person apart from works. Legalistic lists of works, and timetables to perform them in will only cloud your understanding of what it means to be transformed into a new creation by faith in Christ apart from the performance of work.


Yet it is not possible for one to even be a Christian without doing those good works.
It's not possible to made a new creation by your faith and trust in the blood of Christ and not have the impulse of the Spirit at work in you producing the fruit of the Spirit. Fruit that then produces righteous deeds (kindness produces kind deeds, patience produces works of patience, peace produces a peaceable and self-controlled person...).


My point in this thread is not about how one initially becomes saved/justified. It is about those who are ALREADY in a saved position as Christians.
Then all of us 'faith, apart from works' people don't need to be here then I guess. This is all just a big misunderstanding. Because no 'faith, apart from works' believer will tell you that the grace of God is a license to trample the very grace of God that saved us. But that hardly means works are what justifies/ saves a person, which is what those who oppose the 'faith, apart from works' argument say.


Can one remain a Christian, remain justifed and NOT do those "before ordained" works of Eph 2:10? No, he cannot. Mt 25 and Jn 15 bear this out also.
He was not born again to begin with, or abandoned the faith if he ends up not living in obedience to the requirements of God. It's really that simple.


Above you posted "The person who purposely does not obey God after hearing, even receiving the gospel to some extent, is the one who has abandoned his faith..."

So a Christian's faith MUST include those good works of Eph 2:10 for if not, he has "abandoned his faith" as you said yourself. So you are saying for a Christian to remain a Christian, to remain justified he must have a faith + works and not a faith without works (faith only).
For fear of entertaining the legalism of the argument I say, 'yes', but don't confuse that with the works themselves doing the actual saving. 'Faith, apart from works' does NOT mean the grace of God is a license to sin. What it means is a person is justified on the basis of their faith in the forgiveness of God, not on the basis of the righteous things they do. For that is utterly impossible. Only Jesus could live a life that could justify. But many have defended that view point in this and other threads.
 
B:

Utterly wrong. "[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3.8.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Where is a so called priest here commanding regeneration by a gesture?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Regeneration is a work dependent of the secret and silent work of the Holy Spirit.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Paul in Ephesians 5 speaks of the power of the Word of God: this is the washing of water by the Word.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

Hi farouk,

Where does any of this address Jesus' words, born of water?

How is it you state what Epehsians 5 means? No exegesis? I mean if that's the case then we can just say any passage means whatever we want it to mean.
 
Hi farouk,

Where does any of this address Jesus' words, born of water?

How is it you state what Epehsians 5 means? No exegesis? I mean if that's the case then we can just say any passage means whatever we want it to mean.

B:

With respect, for John 3, it is you that are divorcing the context of symbolic cleansing from the secret operation of the Spirit as wind, in regeneration, not me.

It is you that is linking Ephesians 5 with a supposed idea of baptismal regeneration where none exists. As you know, the context of Ephesians 5 is the cleansing of the body of Christ, as a bride prepared for her husband.

I think we have established that we do not agree. And it's also inaccurate of you to imply that you are standing on the text of Scripture alone, when it is you that is reading church tradition and ritualism into these passages, not the born again Christians posting on this site.
 
B:

With respect, for John 3, it is you that are divorcing the context of symbolic cleansing from the secret operation of the Spirit as wind, in regeneration, not me.

It is you that is linking Ephesians 5 with a supposed idea of baptismal regeneration where none exists. As you know, the context of Ephesians 5 is the cleansing of the body of Christ, as a bride prepared for her husband.

I think we have established that we do not agree. And it's also inaccurate of you to imply that you are standing on the text of Scripture alone, when it is you that is reading church tradition and ritualism into these passages, not the born again Christians posting on this site.

I'm not divorcing the Scripture from the context. I've shown just the opposite. Paul talks about cleasing the church, things are washed with water just as Paul said.

I asked you to address Jesus' statement about born of water, you've not. Maybe it's not me who's divorcing the Scripture from the context since Jesus clearly said a man must be born of water.

I also didn't say I was standing only on Scripture, especially since I quoted 300 years of church history.
 
Well, we have you opinion and that of Jesus and the aposltes. Jesus said, unless a man is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Paul speaking of Christian said, God saved us through the bath of regeneration and the arenewing of the Holy Spirit.

This was also the understanding of those who were taught by the apostles.

Ignatius was a disciple of the apostle John

Ignatius appeals to Rom. 6:5"Wherefore also, ye appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order that, by believing in His death, ye may by baptism be made partakers of His resurrection." (Ignatius, Epistle to the Trallians, II)

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Barnabas 70-130
Further, what says He? “And there was a river flowing on the right, and from it arose beautiful trees; and whosoever shall eat of them shall live for ever.” (Ezek. 47:12) This meaneth, that we indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement, but come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear [of God] and trust in Jesus in our spirit. “And whosoever shall eat of these shall live for ever,”


The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2

Hermas 150
Accordingly, those also who fell asleep received the seal of the Son of God. For,” he continued, “before a man bears the name of the Son of God he is dead; but when he receives the seal he lays aside his deadness, and obtains life.
The seal, then, is the water: they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1


The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Irenaeus 180
Disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John.

In refuting the Gnostics,

And when we come to refute them, we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Irenaeus 180
“And dipped himself,” says [the Scripture], “seven times in Jordan.” (2 Ki. 5:14) It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [it served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: “Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (John 3:5)

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2

Clement of Alexandria 195
Then within the same period John prophesied till the baptism of salvation; and after the birth of Christ, Anna and Simeon.


The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3

Tertullian 195
Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life!

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3

Tertullian 195
But we, little fishes, after the example of our ΙΧΘΥΣ Jesus Christ,
are born in water,

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3

Tertullian 195
When, however, the prescript is laid down that “without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless one be born of water, he hath not life” (John 3:5, not fully given)), there arise immediately scrupulous, nay rather audacious, doubts on the part of some,

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 9

Origen 228
“by the laver of regeneration,” (Titus 3:5) through which they were born “as new-born babes,

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 6

Pamohilius 309
Of the divine descent of the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost which lighted on them who believed. In this we have also the instruction delivered by Peter, and * passages from the prophets on the subject, and * on the passion and resurrection and assumption of Christ, and the gift of the Holy Ghost; also * of the faith of those present, and their salvation by baptism; and, further,* of the unity of spirit pervading the believers and promoting the common good, and of the addition made to their number.


These writings span the time from the apostles with Ignatius to the Council of Nicaea. They are all pretty much in agreement that water baptism is necessary for salvation. However, is this what the Scriptures teach? Because it doesn't matter one bit if they all agree if the Scriptures do not teach this. So, we need to look and see if the Scriptures teach that water baptism is necessary. There are several to consider, Titus 3:5 says that God saved us through the "Bath" of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit.

Titus 3:4-5 ( KJV ) But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The Greek word translated "Washing" Is "Loutron" and means a bath. Paul is saying that God saved us through a bath. The only bath that I am aware of in Christianity is water baptism. Jesus said 'unless one is born of water and Spirit he cannot see the kingdom of heaven'. Here we have Paul basically saying the same thing with different words, He (God) saved us with the bath of regeneration (water baptism) and the renewing of hte Holy Spirit (Spiritual baptism). We also see that it was at Jesus' baptism that the Holy Spirit descended upon Him.

Paul also speaks of this in Romans 6,

Romans 6:3-5 ( KJV )
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

This passage is claimed by many to be speaking of Spiritual baptism, however, this simply is not possible. One reason is that the grammar does not allow such an interpretation. Paul says that this baptism makes us partakers of the resurrection, so we need to make sure we understand what it is. The Greek word that is translated "Likeness" in this passage is the Greek word, "Homoioma". It means a representation or an image.

G3667
μοίωμα
homoiōma
Thayer Definition:
1) that which has been made after the likeness of something1a) a figure, image, likeness, representation1b
) likeness, i.e. resemblance, such as amounts almost to equality or identity

A representation or image is something that can been with the eye. This baptism that Paul is speaking of is a visible baptism, it is am image or representation of something. It is a visible representation of Spiritual baptism as we saw with Jesus baptism. He received the Spirit upon coming out of the waters of baptism.

There is another reason this passage cannot be speaking of Spiritual baptism. Paul said that the baptism in Romans 6 is a representation or an image. A representation or image is not the original, for instance, when one goes to the store and buys a picture of the Mona Lisa, they are not buying the original, only a representation or image of the original. If this baptism in Romans 6 was a Spiritual baptism, what is it a representation of? The original is not a representation of a copy. If union with the Holy Spirit is essential for the Christian to have life it must be the original, not the copy. Therefore there is no way that this passage can be speaking of Spiritual baptism simply because Paul said it is the representation of the original

This fits nicely with what Peter said,

1 Peter 3:18-21 ( KJV )
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Peter equates Noah and the eight souls being saved in the Ark with baptism saving the Christian. He connects the baptism with water to show that it is water baptism, yet he says that it is not the water that actually saves. He says that it is the answer of a good conscience towards God. The Christian with a good conscience goes into the waters of baptism and in that God gives an answer. It is the answer that saves but it is going into the water is the question. This fits nicely with what Paul has stated, 'He (God) saved us through the bath of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit.

There is also, Ephesians 5

Ephesians 5:23-27 ( KJV )
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Paul says that Christ may sanctify and cleanse the Church with the "Washing of Water" by the word. Many think that "The word" in this passage is Christ, however, Paul did not use the word "Logos" he use the word "rhema" which means,

Thayer’s Greek Definitions
G4487
ῥῆμα rhēma Thayer Definition: 1) that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word 1a) any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning 1b) speech, discourse 1b1) what one has said 1c) a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one’s mind made in words) 1c1) an utterance 1c2) a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative 1c2a) concerning some occurrence 2) subject matter of speech, thing spoken of 2a) so far forth as it is a matter of narration 2b) so far as it is a matter of command 2c) a matter of dispute, case at law

Basically the word means an utterance, a spoken word, a command. What command was given in the Christian faith regarding washing or a bath? Mathew elaborates for us.

Matthew 28:19-20 ( KJV )
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Here is the "Washing of water with by the word". Also the Greek word translated by is the word "en" which is better translated "in" or "with". In this case with is the better translation.

I think it can be seen that there is much to what the Ante-Nicene Fathers has said about the importance of baptism. Their claims can be supported in Scripture.



Well, we have you opinion and that of Jesus and the aposltes. Jesus said, unless a man is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God.


John 3:5 has absolutely nothing to do with baptism!


5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Born of water is a reference to natural child birth.

Born of the Spirit is a reference to spiritual birth.

Born of water
= flesh gives birth to flesh.

Born of the Spirit = Spirit gives birth to spirit.


Baptism on the other hand is about death, not birth!

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Romans 6:3


JLB
 
Well First, how does one become a New Creation ?

You become a new creation by being born again.

You become born again by believing the Gospel message [word], which is the incorruptible seed.

having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:23

The word of salvation!

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:8-10


Born again of incorruptible seed!

JLB
 
People sometimes like to call themselves as born again yet live in sinful living considering all requirement to holiness as works and thinking they are saved by grace, but the bitter truth is they are falling short of grace and unworthy to walk with Christ.

(1John 3:6-9) Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
 
But in Romans 7 doesn't Paul talk about the sin in him?

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. [c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
 
But in Romans 7 doesn't Paul talk about the sin in him?

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. [c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Hi Grazer,

Some have suggested that Paul is describing himself before his conversion.
 
Well, we have you opinion and that of Jesus and the apostles. Jesus said, unless a man is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God.


John 3:5 has absolutely nothing to do with baptism!


5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Born of water is a reference to natural child birth.

Born of the Spirit is a reference to spiritual birth.

Born of water = flesh gives birth to flesh.

Born of the Spirit = Spirit gives birth to spirit.


Baptism on the other hand is about death, not birth!

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Romans 6:3


JLB


That doesn't make sense. Jesus is contrasting the fleshly birth with the new birth. The birth consists of two elements water and Spirit, He states that. water can't be the fleshly birth if it's part of the new birth.

Additionally, it makes no sense that Jesus would tell Nicodemus he must be born of water, menaing natural birth. What human being has every desired the kingdom of God that hasn't been born naturally? That's like me saying no one can drive a car unless he's been born? That's a no brainer.

Also, Jesus reference to Nicodemus about the flesh is a reference to his being Jewish. As a Jew Nicodemus understood he was entitiled to the promises made to Abraham, Jesus is telling him that his fleshly birth as a Jew will not get him the promises made to Abraham, but rather he needs to be born again, born from above.

What you've quoted also is contrary to the teaching of those taught by the apostles whose quotes I've given. Am I to suppose you know better more than them?
 
Hi Grazer,

Some have suggested that Paul is describing himself before his conversion.

But Paul is talking in the present tense i.e. at the time he wrote the letter, that was the situation.
 
That doesn't make sense. Jesus is contrasting the fleshly birth with the new birth. The birth consists of two elements water and Spirit, He states that. water can't be the fleshly birth if it's part of the new birth.

Additionally, it makes no sense that Jesus would tell Nicodemus he must be born of water, menaing natural birth. What human being has every desired the kingdom of God that hasn't been born naturally? That's like me saying no one can drive a car unless he's been born? That's a no brainer.

Also, Jesus reference to Nicodemus about the flesh is a reference to his being Jewish. As a Jew Nicodemus understood he was entitiled to the promises made to Abraham, Jesus is telling him that his fleshly birth as a Jew will not get him the promises made to Abraham, but rather he needs to be born again, born from above.

What you've quoted also is contrary to the teaching of those taught by the apostles whose quotes I've given. Am I to suppose you know better more than them?

Look at the context -

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

We have six verses here in Jesus' explanation to Nicodemus.

We have the word born mentioned in every verse!


I will ask you, in Jesus' explanation to Nicodemus, is the context of the discussion about "birth" or about "baptism".


a. Birth

b. Baptism

Please choose a or b.


JLB
 
But Paul is talking in the present tense i.e. at the time he
wrote the letter, that was the situation.

Yes, it's not necessariy my argument, I've not considered it enough. The thinking I've heard is that Paul is describing his experience under the Law. Again, it's not my argument, I was just suggesting it as a possibility.
 
Look at the context -

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

We have six verses here in Jesus' explanation to Nicodemus.

We have the word born mentioned in every verse!


I will ask you, in Jesus' explanation to Nicodemus, is the context of the discussion about "birth" or about "baptism".


a. Birth

b. Baptism

Please choose a or b.


JLB


You've left something out of the context.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Mat 15:24 KJV)

Jesus was talking to a Jew. A Jew who believed that his birth as a son of Abraham entitled him to the promises of Abraham. The Jews were the kingdom of God. Jesus is telling him that that birth that he had in the flesh as a son of Abraham doesn't cut it. He needs a new birth, he needs to be born from above, born of water and Spirit. Being born again consists of two elements water and Spirit.


 
This presumed conundrum will fall apart if anyone ever decides to define what those "before ordained" works of Eph 2:10 actually are.:D

Works that would lead the Christian to living a holy life. In Rev 2:26 Jesus said the ones that overcome are the ones that keepeth His works. Jesus' works include doing unto others as you would have them do unto you, love thy neighbor as thyself, to love Christ and keep His commandments, etc. It was also include good works found in Mt 25.
 
He said, why do you call me Lord and not do the things I say. I think Jesus is just giving examples, however, if He is speaking of people directly, He's addressing people who are already calling Him lord. He's seen by their actions that they are not acting like they accept that He really is their Lord. I don't think He's implying that on must first do deeds before they can approach Him.

What Jesus said applies to everyone.

Why one would call Jesus "Lord" yet disobey Him at the same time?

The Lk 6:26 verse parallels Mt 7 where Jesus said "Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven."


So only those who obey/doeth the will of the Father can call Jesus Lord and enter the kingdom of heaven.


In Lk 6, from v20 Jesus is speaking to His disciples. His discples believed but ther belief had no works. So Jesus said to them "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" This chapter ends with Jesus telling them " Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like; He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great."
 
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Good word!


Baptism is about death, not regeneration or cleansing.


Ephesians 5:26

that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,

This is a reference to the old testament laver. The laver was lined with brass mirrors and filled with water. The priest would look into the laver and see his reflection, where he needed cleansing, and wash with the water in the laver before attending to the duties of the tabernacle.

This was a type for us to learn from today.


Tts 3:5 and Eph 5:26 are references to being born again per Jn 3:5. Since the bible is its own best commentary:

Jn 3:5------Spirit+++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
Tts 3:5----Holy Spirit++++++++washing of reg.>>>>saved
Eph 5:26---The Word++++++++washing of water>>>cleansed
1 Cor12:13--SPirit++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>in the body


I threw in the Corinthians being born again, 1 Cor 12:13. Since there is just one way to be saved/be born again, ALL these verses MUST express the same idea. So water///washing of regeneration///washing of water///baptized all clearly refer to water baptism.

So one must be water baptized BEFORE salvation. After being water baptized and becoming a Christain, he must do those good works of Eph 2:10.

So it is impossible for anyone to ever make it to heaven without doing any works...going to heaven is conditional upon works, no way around it.
 
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