Ephesians 2:10

[Butch5]

What Jesus said applies to everyone.

Why one would call Jesus "Lord" yet disobey Him at the same time?

The Lk 6:26 verse parallels Mt 7 where Jesus said "Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven."


So only those who obey/doeth the will of the Father can call Jesus Lord and enter the kingdom of heaven.


In Lk 6, from v20 Jesus is speaking to His disciples. His discples believed but ther belief had no works. So Jesus said to them "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" This chapter ends with Jesus telling them " Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like; He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great."

I agree!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You'll understand it better if you think in terms of the qualities of the Spirit instead of works as some understand that.

Works are works, see Mt 25:34-46.

Verse 46 " And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

From the context, what was it that separated "these" from the "righteous"? works

I'd have to look again, but I'm not sure that's how you've been asking the question. Haven't you been saying that the works themselves do the saving? That is what the 'faith, apart from works' argument resists. Salvation is by faith, apart from the merit of works. The works being the evidence of a genuine salvation, not the actual agent of salvation. Faith is the agent of salvation, not works. Nobody can do anything to merit salvation. Only forgiveness of sin, and being made righteous that way, can save a person. You're kidding yourself if you think you can be good enough to be declared righteous through the merit of your own work.

The essential question I ask is: can one be a Christian and NOT do those gooe works God preordained the Christian should walk in?

The answer is 'no'. From Eph 1:4,5 God foreknew Christians would be 'in Christ', be 'holy and without blame', and be called 'sons'. From Eph 2:10 God foreknew the work the Christian would do. If one could be a Christian without doing those foreknown works, then why couldn't one be a Christian without being in Christ, not be holy and without blame and not be a son? Doing those foreknown works are essential to being a Christ as the rest of what God foreknew about the Christian.



Faith is a work. Below, you yourself made reference to "work of faith". So faith is a work that comes BEFORE salvation but this thread is dealing with the works one does who is ALREADY in a saved position.

But I showed you where Paul said that only faith can justify. Faith that can be seen in it's love for others. That is the only thing that counts toward being made righteous--faith in Christ's blood. A faith that is signified by it's love for others. IOW, faith that changes a person into a new creation. But that hardly means the work of faith is what actually saves a person. Faith does that all by itself 'apart from works', as Paul says.

Nowhere ever did Paul say "faith only" justifies. In Martin Luther's translation, Luther had to add the word only to the context to get the context to reflect his personal ideas.

Yes.

Assuming good work is how one justifies themselves, how is it that you can have good works to be justified through in the moment you believe and trust in Christ's blood to forgive sins? Which brings me back to my question to you. How long are we allowed before we have to have some good works after we believe? Six minutes? Six days? Six years? That's why i say you'll understand this better if you think in terms of the fruit of the Spirit--the qualities of the Spirit--as the 'works' that signify the presence of the faith that justifies a person apart from works. Legalistic lists of works, and timetables to perform them in will only cloud your understanding of what it means to be transformed into a new creation by faith in Christ apart from the performance of work.

No, I am not saying good works justify. Christians are those who are ALREADY justified, and they are to do good works God preordained them to do, Eph 2:10. The question is; can one remain a Christian, remain justified yet not do those good works God preordained the Christian to do? No.

It's not possible to made a new creation by your faith and trust in the blood of Christ and not have the impulse of the Spirit at work in you producing the fruit of the Spirit. Fruit that then produces righteous deeds (kindness produces kind deeds, patience produces works of patience, peace produces a peaceable and self-controlled person...).

The Christian does the good works of Eph 2:10, not the Holy Spirit. The Christian is to produce fruit and those branches that do not produce are cut off and cast into the fire.

Then all of us 'faith, apart from works' people don't need to be here then I guess. This is all just a big misunderstanding. Because no 'faith, apart from works' believer will tell you that the grace of God is a license to trample the very grace of God that saved us. But that hardly means works are what justifies/ saves a person, which is what those who oppose the 'faith, apart from works' argument say.

Again, this thread is about works one does who has ALREADY been justfied. The good works of Eph 2:10 are to be done by those ALREADY justified. So again the question is; can one REMAIN justified and not do those good works God has preordained him to do?


I asked earlier: If faith only justifies, then you are saying a Christian can have faith only less those good works of Eph 2:10 and still be justified.

You above plainly answered "yes".

But God preordained, foreknew that those who are ALREADY jusified are to walk in good works. By answering 'yes' you are saying what God has preordained/foreknew can be undone, changed or thwarted, that one can be a justified Christian yet not do those preordained works God created the Christian to walk in.

I asked: Can one remain a Christian, remain justifed and NOT do those "before ordained" works of Eph 2:10?

To which you replied:
He was not born again to begin with, or abandoned the faith if he ends up not living in obedience to the requirements of God. It's really that simple.

Yet above you answered "yes" to this question. Now you say if those already justified do not do those works then they were not really born again to begin with or abandoned the faith if he ends up NOT LIVING IN OBEDIENCE TO THE REQUIREMENTS OF GOD.

So those already justified must do obedient works to remain justifed?

So I'll ask again: If the Christian does not do those works God has preordained he walk in per Eph 2:10 will the Christian will remain justified?

For fear of entertaining the legalism of the argument I say, 'yes', but don't confuse that with the works themselves doing the actual saving. 'Faith, apart from works' does NOT mean the grace of God is a license to sin. What it means is a person is justified on the basis of their faith in the forgiveness of God, not on the basis of the righteous things they do. For that is utterly impossible. Only Jesus could live a life that could justify. But many have defended that view point in this and other threads.

I asked "So a Christian's faith MUST include those good works of Eph 2:10 for if not, he has "abandoned his faith" as you said yourself. So you are saying for a Christian to remain a Christian, to remain justified he must have a faith + works and not a faith without works (faith only)?

Above you answer YES! So you admit the Christian cannot remain justified without doing those works of Eph 2:10. So you have made salvation (remaining justified) conditional upon doing the good works of Eph 2:10.

Now that you understand the Christian must do works to remain justifed, I now need to get you to understand one has to do obedient works to become justified.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Well First, how does one become a New Creation ?

By being water baptized, afterwards he rises out of the waters of baptism to walk in newness of life, Rom 6:4.

2 Cor 5:17 "Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

One must be IN CHRIST to be a new creature and it takes water baptism to put one in Christ, Gal 3:27 and then one can walk in newness of life.

The verse says "IF ANY MAN". So any one that chooses to obey by being water baptized can be a new creature in Christ. Being a new creature in Christ is therefore not only for a lucky few God supposedly unconditionally chose before the world began.

But this thread is about those who are ALREADY in Christ, ALREADY a new creature. Can one remain in Christ, remain a new creature if he does not do those preordained works of Eph 2:10? No he cannot.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You become a new creation by being born again.

You become born again by believing the Gospel message [word], which is the incorruptible seed.

having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:23

The word of salvation!

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:8-10


Born again of incorruptible seed!

JLB

You say "You become a new creation by being born again."


2 Cor 5:17 "Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature:"

Therefore one must be in Christ to be a new creature.

Gal 3:27 water baptism is the way one gets in Christ, so water baptism is how one is born again to become a new creation in Christ, meaning the "water" of Jn 3:5 is a reference to baptism.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

But in Romans 7 doesn't Paul talk about the sin in him?

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. [c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Hi,

Paul begins Rom 8 with "[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus..."

Paul is contrasting how it is NOW for him as a Christian to how it was back then as a Jew.

Note in Rom 6:11,12 "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."

A Christian is one who is dead to sin but alive unto God. Paul as a Christian could not have sin living in him, else he is breaking his own commands to "not let sin reign in your mortal body" and being "dead indeed unto sin".

 

[JLB]

You say "You become a new creation by being born again."


2 Cor 5:17 "Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature:"

Therefore one must be in Christ to be a new creature.

Gal 3:27 water baptism is the way one gets in Christ, so water baptism is how one is born again to become a new creation in Christ, meaning the "water" of Jn 3:5 is a reference to baptism.

The bible says you are born again of incorruptible seed which is the word of God.

having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

You are assuming, because you see the word water in John 3:5 that Jesus is referring to baptism.

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he can't enter into the kingdom of God!

The phrase born of water does not refer to Baptism, it refers to natural child birth.

Look at the next verse -

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Born of water is an expression that refers to natural child birth, when a woman has a child her water breaks when she goes into labor.

John uses this same reference in his first letter to reference the Virgin birth of Christ.

6 This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and the blood. 7 It is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 1 John 5:6-7

This is a reference to the Virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

He came by water, is a reference to He came into this world by water and blood.

Mary's water and her hymen broke when she gave birth to Jesus.

Jesus was fully man, yet born of a virgin.

Legally sin had to "leave" the world by man. The Spirit testified to both the water and the blood at His birth!

Came by water is a reference to natural child birth, for flesh gives birth to flesh!

JLB

 

[JLB]

You've left something out of the context.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.(Mat 15:24 KJV)

Jesus was talking to a Jew. A Jew who believed that his birth as a son of Abraham entitled him to the promises of Abraham. The Jews were the kingdom of God. Jesus is telling him that that birth that he had in the flesh as a son of Abraham doesn't cut it. He needs a new birth, he needs to be born from above, born of water and Spirit. Being born again consists of two elements water and Spirit.

You must first be a human being, born of water to qualify to be born again.

Now you are eligible to be born again. You have to first be born in order to be born again!

For flesh gives birth to flesh and the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Jesus goes on to say - If I told you earthly things and you don't believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

earthly things = flesh - Born of water - For flesh gives birth to flesh

heavenly things = spirit - Born of the Spirit. - Spirit gives birth to spirit.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

The water is John's baptism unto repentance. A symbolic passing through death of the old life makes way for the baptism of the Spirit.

 

[JLB]

The water is John's baptism unto repentance. A symbolic passing through death of the old life makes way for the baptism of the Spirit.

Demons who believe can not be born again.

You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! James 2:19

Cloned human beings can not be born again.

Test tube babies can not be born again.

Nephilum can not be born again.

Android beings can not be born again.


Being born again, is be born of The Spirit.


However, to be born again you must first be born!


having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

You must respond to the Gospel message by confessing Jesus Christ as Lord.


Just because you hear the message and don't believe, does not mean you are saved.

If you hear and don't believe and go and get dunked in water, the water does no good.

First you must be born again, to be eligible to be baptized.

3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:3-6


JLB

 

[Butch5]

You must first be a human being, born of water to qualify to be born again.

Now you are eligible to be born again. You have to first be born in order to be born again!

For flesh gives birth to flesh and the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Jesus goes on to say - If I told you earthly things and you don't believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

earthly things = flesh - Born of water - For flesh gives birth to flesh

heavenly things = spirit - Born of the Spirit. - Spirit gives birth to spirit.


JLB

It makes no sense to tell someone they have to be bron in order to enter the kingdom. Everyone that tries to enter the kingdom has been born. Telling someone they must be born again is an indication of their belief that their first birth gave them access to the kingdom. Gentiles would not think that being physically born gave them entrance into the kingdom, the Jews, however, would.

Additionally, as I point out, being born again consists of two elements, water and Spirit.

Additionally, look up the phrase "born again," You'll find that the phrase is only spoken to Jews. Paul nowhere uses the phrase "born again" in writing to the Gentiles. If you look in the OT you'll find that God said, "Israel is my son." Thus Jesus, statement to Nicodemus, a Jew, "you must be born again." Context is everything.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The bible says you are born again of incorruptible seed which is the word of God.

having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

You are assuming, because you see the word water in John 3:5 that Jesus is referring to baptism.

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he can't enter into the kingdom of God!

The phrase born of water does not refer to Baptism, it refers to natural child birth.

Look at the next verse -

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Born of water is an expression that refers to natural child birth, when a woman has a child her water breaks when she goes into labor.

John uses this same reference in his first letter to reference the Virgin birth of Christ.

6 This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and the blood. 7 It is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 1 John 5:6-7

This is a reference to the Virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

He came by water, is a reference to He came into this world by water and blood.

Mary's water and her hymen broke when she gave birth to Jesus.

Jesus was fully man, yet born of a virgin.

Legally sin had to "leave" the world by man. The Spirit testified to both the water and the blood at His birth!

Came by water is a reference to natural child birth, for flesh gives birth to flesh!

JLB

When comparing Jn 3:5 with other born again verses, it becomes clear that water refers to water baptism:

Jn 3:5------Spirit+++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
Tts 3:5----Holy Spirit++++++++washing of reg.>>>>saved
Eph 5:26---The Word++++++++washing of water>>>cleansed
1 Cor12:13--SPirit++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>in the body


Where's the natural birth in Tts 3:5; Eph 5:26; 1 Cor 12:13?

Nicodemus asked "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? "

By this question, Nicodemus understood Jesus was NOT speaking of the natural birth when Jesus said "except a man be born again", v3. Nicodmus just did not understand what kind of birth Jesus was speaking about.

Why would Jesus tell a full grown man standing in front of Him "Except ye be physically born you cannot see the kingdom of heaven"? It makes it appear that Jesus did not understand Nicodemus had already been physically born. The new birth was something Nicodemus had not yet experinced, he already experienced the natural birth, so the new birth has nothing to do with the corrupt natural birth..."Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." So the new birth has nothing to do with the corruptible seed of the natural birth.


The issue I have in this thread is this: can one who is ALREADY born again remain
saved yet not do those 'before ordained' works of Eph 2:10?

 

[JLB]

It makes no sense to tell someone they have to be bron in order to enter the kingdom. Everyone that tries to enter the kingdom has been born. Telling someone they must be born again is an indication of their belief that their first birth gave them access to the kingdom. Gentiles would not think that being physically born gave them entrance into the kingdom, the Jews, however, would.

Additionally, as I point out, being born again consists of two elements, water and Spirit.

Additionally, look up the phrase "born again," You'll find that the phrase is only spoken to Jews. Paul nowhere uses the phrase "born again" in writing to the Gentiles. If you look in the OT you'll find that God said, "Israel is my son." Thus Jesus, statement to Nicodemus, a Jew, "you must be born again." Context is everything.

I didn't say you need to tell anyone to be born of water. Jesus is answering Nicodemus question and illustrating to him about spiritual birth, using natural birth as a metaphor to help him understand. That is why Jesus said, "if I tell you of earthly things", referring to natural birth.

Jesus told Nicodemus about spiritual birth because his mindset was, if he was a child of Abraham through natural child birth then he had salvation.

You don't tell anyone to be born of water, you tell them the Gospel!

If they believe, The Spirit will give birth to their spirit. Now they are ready to be baptized in water!

Context is everything.

I am glad you think so.

In the following verses of Jesus' explanation to Nicodemus the context is birth not baptism. John 3:3-8

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

We have six verses here in Jesus' explanation to Nicodemus.

We have the word born mentioned in every verse!

Nicodemus asked a question about birth and Jesus answered the question using the word "born" in every verse of His explanation.

The context is birth not baptism!

Natural birth and Spiritual birth!


Look at what is being said in verse 5 and 6

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Verse 6 is an explanation of the two elements being spoke of by Jesus in verse 5.

Water and Spirit.

Verse 5 speaks of water, verse 6 explains that born of water refers to born of flesh.

JLB

 

[Butch5]

JLB---I didn't say you need to tell anyone to be born of water. Jesus is answering Nicodemus question and illustrating to him about spiritual birth, using natural birth as a metaphor to help him understand. That is why Jesus said, "if I tell you of earthly things", referring to natural birth.

Jesus told Nicodemus about spiritual birth because his mindset was, if he was a child of Abraham through natural child birth then he had salvation.

You don't tell anyone to be born of water, you tell them the Gospel!

If they believe, The Spirit will give birth to their spirit. Now they are ready to be baptized in water!

Are you suggesting that Nicodemus didn't believe in physical birth?

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?(Joh 3:12 KJV)

The earthly things were not natural birth.

Jesus said to Nicodemus, unless man is born of water and the Spirit he cannot see the kingdom of God. Again, why would Jesus tell Nicodemus he must be physically born? If water is natural birth as you say, then Jesus is telling Nicodemus he must be physically born. He was already Physically born when he came to Jesus, what need is there to tell him. As I said before, that's like me saying one must be born in order to drive.

I am glad you think so.

In the following verses of Jesus' explanation to Nicodemus the context is birth not baptism. John 3:3-8

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

We have six verses here in Jesus' explanation to Nicodemus.

We have the word born mentioned in every verse!

Nicodemus asked a question about birth and Jesus answered the question using the word "born" in every verse of His explanation.

The context is birth not baptism!

Natural birth and Spiritual birth!


Look at what is being said in verse 5 and 6

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Verse 6 is an explanation of the two elements being spoke of by Jesus in verse 5.

Water and Spirit.

Verse 5 speaks of water, verse 6 explains that born of water refers to born of flesh.

JLB

Yes, the context is birth, specifically Jesus telling Nicodemus how to be born from above and in that He says one must be born of water and the Spirit. As I said, it makes no sense to tell someone they need to be physically born in order to enter the kingdom. Additionally, the two nouns, water and Spirit are connected to a single verb, born. Therefore whatever born means it requires water and the Spirit.

We also need to look at the fact that the word "born" is in the subjunctive mood which indicates posibility but not certainty. Basically Jesus is saying, If a man may be born of water and the Spirit. This leaves the possibility that man may not be born of water, thus showing that it cannot possibly be referring to natural birth because everyone has experienced natural birth.

If they believe, The Spirit will give birth to their spirit. Now they are ready to be baptized in water!

Not according to Paul

 

[savedbygrace57]

bass

Fine, so can one be a "New Creation"

Sure if God Creates them that way !

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus said to Nicodemus, unless man is born of water and the Spirit he cannot see the kingdom of God. Again, why would Jesus tell Nicodemus he must be physically born? If water is natural birth as you say, then Jesus is telling Nicodemus he must be physically born. He was already Physically born when he came to Jesus, what need is there to tell him. As I said before, that's like me saying one must be born in order to drive.

By 'water' Jesus is referring to being part of a natural kingdom of God through the law of Moses, birthed and baptized at the Red Sea (1 Cor. 10:1). Law alone gives birth to a fleshly kingdom of God, but the Spirit gives birth to a spiritual nation and kingdom of God.

Only those born of water and the Spirit can see the kingdom. You can't see the kingdom by only being born of law, though it is through the Spirit that we uphold the law (Romans 3:31). Specifically the law 'love your neighbor as yourself"--Rom. 13:9-10.

"The only thing that counts is faith..."

"...expressing itself through love" (Galatians 5:6 NIV1984)

The only thing that counts towards justification is faith (all by itself, apart from works). But the faith that justifies must also be seen in the natural upholding of the law of Moses ('love your neighbor as yourself') for it to be the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works. Those who have faith in Christ (the spiritual birth) and whose faith upholds the law of Moses 'love your neighbor as yourself' (repentance unto Moses--the natural birth), they are the ones who will see the kingdom.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The good works follow up being Created ! Eph 2:10

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The good works are not performed by anyone who is not first born again, and it is the born again man that performs the good works, nothing to do with the man born of or after the flesh !

 

[Butch5]

By 'water' Jesus is referring to being part of a natural kingdom of God through the law of Moses, birthed and baptized at the Red Sea (1 Cor. 10:1). Law alone gives birth to a fleshly kingdom of God, but the Spirit gives birth to a spiritual nation and kingdom of God.

Only those born of water and the Spirit can see the kingdom. You can't see the kingdom by only being born of law, though it is through the Spirit that we uphold the law (Romans 3:31). Specifically the law 'love your neighbor as yourself"--Rom. 13:9-10.

"The only thing that counts is faith..."

"...expressing itself through love" (Galatians 5:6 NIV1984)

The only thing that counts towards justification is faith (all by itself, apart from works). But the faith that justifies must also be seen in the natural upholding of the law of Moses ('love your neighbor as yourself') for it to be the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works. Those who have faith in Christ (the spiritual birth) and whose faith upholds the law of Moses 'love your neighbor as yourself' (repentance unto Moses--the natural birth), they are the ones who will see the kingdom.

Faith apart from wokrs doesn't justify. If water meant being a part of the natural kingdom then only the Jews could have been saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Faith apart from wokrs doesn't justify. If water meant being a part of the natural kingdom then only the Jews could have been saved.

You didn't read my post thoughtfully enough. This is not a Jew/ Gentile thing (but it has most significance to a Jew).

Anyone could join themselves to the nation of Israel. And they did that by submitting to the law of Moses. The same law was to be for both Jew and Gentile alike (Numbers 15). Both Jew and Gentile joined themselves to the nation and people and kingdom of God through repentance and obedience to the law. Jesus said that (repentance unto the law) is not enough. You must be born 'again'. The washing of repentance is not enough (signified by washing with water). You must also be washed by the Spirit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Faith apart from wokrs doesn't justify.

Abraham was justified (legally declared righteous) by his faith 'apart from works' (Romans 4:6). This is what Paul teaches in Romans.

James teaches us how Abraham was justified (shown to be legally righteous) by what he did.


Faith does indeed justify (make one righteous before God) all by itself, apart from righteous works. Righteous works are NOT the basis for being declared righteous. Faith in Christ the promised Son is. Righteous work being the evidence of the presence of the faith that justifies apart from works.

"The only thing that counts is faith..."

"...expressing itself in love." Galatians 5:6b)


Like the Galatians, some in the church have to be reminded to continue in the Spirit that they started out in (assuming they really did start out in the Spirit--faith in Christ's blood to forgive).

2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? (Galatians 3:2-4)


(And if you think the washing of water for purification,that is forgiveness, of sin is not a work of the law read Numbers 19.)

See the point? Are you saved because you believed the gospel, or because of the completion of righteous duties and behaviors? Many start out right--believing the simple message of right standing with God through Christ's blood--only to cave into the doing of righteous things as the basis for salvation.

 

[JLB]

By 'water' Jesus is referring to being part of a natural kingdom of God through the law of Moses, birthed and baptized at the Red Sea (1 Cor. 10:1). Law alone gives birth to a fleshly kingdom of God, but the Spirit gives birth to a spiritual nation and kingdom of God.

Only those born of water and the Spirit can see the kingdom. You can't see the kingdom by only being born of law, though it is through the Spirit that we uphold the law (Romans 3:31). Specifically the law 'love your neighbor as yourself"--Rom. 13:9-10.

"The only thing that counts is faith..."

"...expressing itself through love" (Galatians 5:6 NIV1984)

The only thing that counts towards justification is faith (all by itself, apart from works). But the faith that justifies must also be seen in the natural upholding of the law of Moses ('love your neighbor as yourself') for it to be the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works. Those who have faith in Christ (the spiritual birth) and whose faith upholds the law of Moses 'love your neighbor as yourself' (repentance unto Moses--the natural birth), they are the ones who will see the kingdom.

By 'water' Jesus is referring to being part of a natural kingdom of God through the law of Moses,

By this analogy a person would have to be both part of the "natural" kingdom of God, which you say is the law of Moses and the spiritual kingdom of God.

Yea, that's it, it finally makes sense.

First I need to adhere to Moses law, then I can be part of the spiritual nation and spiritual kingdom.

Shucks Jethro that sure does clear it up!

Thanks, JLB