Erroneous additons to the Word of God !

[Sinthesis]

good lord i have never seen a person complicate the bible like you. this coming from a person who used to believe that the bible was incomplete.

how did I come to believe that the bible is the way its meant to be. by prayer and the Lord showing me.

Do I know all there is to know about the bible, no.

I think that the Lord is most able to use men to write down what wants to stay and keep it the way he wants it to be.

let me guess you are a kjv only.

Hi Jason

I actually have a love - hate , relationship with my kjv. It is my translation of choice, yes.

Apparently not. If the good Lord wanted to preserve his written Word 100 % then no man would even dare touch it. It would have the same consequence of going into the holy of holies and not be a high priest of God. You would just die !

Men have for centuries put their dirty paws on the holy writ, and have altered it in many ways. Adding to it, taking away from it, and changing it whenever and whereever they can get away with it. This is the reason I started this thread. Many just overlook the erroneous changes without even giving it a second thought. ...
Isn't it about time we wake up ?

Now you display the mindset of a Muslim. You should be relieved the Lord is not compelled to follow your divine rules, lest He smite thee for willfully butchering scripture to satisfy your own ego. 2 ing

• Pro 18:2 - A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

 

[Mysteryman]

good lord i have never seen a person complicate the bible like you. this coming from a person who used to believe that the bible was incomplete.

how did I come to believe that the bible is the way its meant to be. by prayer and the Lord showing me.

Do I know all there is to know about the bible, no.

I think that the Lord is most able to use men to write down what wants to stay and keep it the way he wants it to be.

let me guess you are a kjv only.

Hi Jason

I actually have a love - hate , relationship with my kjv. It is my translation of choice, yes.

Apparently not. If the good Lord wanted to preserve his written Word 100 % then no man would even dare touch it. It would have the same consequence of going into the holy of holies and not be a high priest of God. You would just die !

Men have for centuries put their dirty paws on the holy writ, and have altered it in many ways. Adding to it, taking away from it, and changing it whenever and whereever they can get away with it. This is the reason I started this thread. Many just overlook the erroneous changes without even giving it a second thought. ...
Isn't it about time we wake up ?

Now you display the mindset of a Muslim. You should be relieved the Lord is not compelled to follow your divine rules, lest He smite thee for willfully butchering scripture to satisfy your own ego. 2 ing

• Pro 18:2 - A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

Since we are quoting scripture

Psalm 12:3 - "The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things"

Proverbs 12:15 - "The way of a fool is right in his own eyes : but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise"

 

[jasoncran]

if this type of discussion continues in that manner i will lock this. :mad

 

[glorydaz]

how did I come to believe that the bible is the way its meant to be. by prayer and the Lord showing me.

Do I know all there is to know about the bible, no.

I think that the Lord is most able to use men to write down what wants to stay and keep it the way he wants it to be.

Ah, it's refreshing to hear someone who believes God is able to keep His Word exactly how He wants it. Man thinks he is so smart, but God is so far above all of man's feeble efforts. The minute we allow the Bible to be torn to shreds, the enemy has his foot in the door. We have the Holy Spirit as a witness, and He makes it quite clear to the children of God that the Word of God is all truth and kept by His power. :amen

PS...If by reading the Word, we can't discern what is meant by the word "brother" and "brethern" then we must be leaning on our own understanding instead of the enlightment of the Spirit which makes it clear to even the simplest among us. In fact, we'd do better by asking a new believer instead of someone who has studied the word "brother" into the ground. :biglaugh

 

[Mysteryman]

how did I come to believe that the bible is the way its meant to be. by prayer and the Lord showing me.

Do I know all there is to know about the bible, no.

I think that the Lord is most able to use men to write down what wants to stay and keep it the way he wants it to be.

Ah, it's refreshing to hear someone who believes God is able to keep His Word exactly how He wants it. Man thinks he is so smart, but God is so far above all of man's feeble efforts. The minute we allow the Bible to be torn to shreds, the enemy has his foot in the door. We have the Holy Spirit as a witness, and He makes it quite clear to the children of God that the Word of God is all truth and kept by His power. :amen

PS...If by reading the Word, we can't discern what is meant by the word "brother" and "brethern" then we must be leaning on our own understanding instead of the enlightment of the Spirit which makes it clear to even the simplest among us. In fact, we'd do better by asking a new believer instead of someone who has studied the word "brother" into the ground. :biglaugh

I would rather see spiritual growth, instead of someone just agreeing with me. The Word tells us many things. One of them is for us to grow spiritually. Another is to be weary of false teachers. Another is to discern. The purpose of this thread is to discern. And thereby grow spiritually.

If one thinks and believes that the word --To Day --- means that very day, they have been deceived by the improper translation of the words -- in that day--- . The adversary will try by any means to deceive. And guess what ? It is working. Jesus could not have any literal brothers for many reasons. And there is no way that that very day was the day of paradise. It was the day they died. And even for Jesus , he was in the grave for three days and three nights. And the false belief that the soul does not die, which stems from the greatest lie ever told, that when you die, "ye shall not surely die".

Maybe later today I will deal with these two words , which are also erroneous additons to the Word of God -- > hell fire

Bless

 

[jasoncran]

so the lord didnt have a flesh at all then?

james wasnt the half brother of Jesus.

the problem with you picking parts of the bible like you do, one then can say this, what about the muslims, the koran has much to say on the patriachs and jesus are they wrong too.

God is able to know the future and surely can send men who are seeking him to be used in properly translating the bible.

 

[Mysteryman]

so the lord didnt have a flesh at all then?

james wasnt the half brother of Jesus.

the problem with you picking parts of the bible like you do, one then can say this, what about the muslims, the koran has much to say on the patriachs and jesus are they wrong too.

God is able to know the future and surely can send men who are seeking him to be used in properly translating the bible.

Hi Jason

So are you claiming that there is a 100 % perfectly translated bible out there ? No flaws whatsoever ?

When I explain something about an erroneous addition. I always give a full explanation based upon the scriptures themselves. The Word of God establishes itself. A translation will not. That is because translations are not perfect. I am sure that many men worked hard on the translations. But I am also sure that the influence of their day played a major role as to why they didn't stick to just translating, instead of putting additions and word changes etc. etc. They might even have had the best of intentions. But still , that does not mean that they translated properly without their own influences added in.

And lets not forget, that the greek texts are nothing more than copies of copies of copies of copies , over many generations. And because of this, there have been influences throught the time of the making of these copies.

I believe that God did protect His Word, and that our translations are for the most part about between 80 and 90 % accurate. However, the newer translations are less than 80 % accurate. The NIV is a great example of this.

It does not take very many additions or mistakes within translating, that many people build doctorines based upon these changes and additions. These then become faulty beliefs all based upon lies, and untruths. Holy writ can be believed. But unholy writ only causes confusion. We need to seperate the wheat from the chaff here. The chaff is worthless, but many people believe that it is holy writ when it is not .

Bless

 

[jasoncran]

then all bibles are soo erroneous that they are lies!!!!!

a half truth is still a lie. think about what you said.

 

[Mysteryman]

then all bibles are soo erroneous that they are lies!!!!!

a half truth is still a lie. think about what you said.

Hi Jason

Which bible translation is 100 % accurate with no flaws whatsoever in it ?

 

[logical bob]

It seems to me that Mysteryman is correct in saying that we can't know for sure exactly what the biblical authors originally wrote. We get the New Testament from a number of manuscripts from the second and third centuries and later. The thing is, they aren't all identical and all of them are copies of copies of copies. So how do we know which, if any, preserve the original? Here's Wikipedia's list of textual variants in the New Testament.

If you look through the list you'll see that the vast majority of variantions aren't very significant and won't change the meaning of the text very much at all. But you'll also see that Mark 16:8-20 and John 7:53-8:11 are almost certainly additions and Luke 22:43-44 and Matthew 16:2-3 are in serious doubt. There is uncertainty about the wording of the Lord's Prayer in Luke. The Johannine Comma is another famous example, although most Bibles now leave it out.

I would point out to Mysteryman that it's not a question of translation. These variants are in the oldest Greek manuscripts we have. I'd also point out that Matthew 27:51-52, which started this thread, are unanimously included in every manuscript. We have no reason to think that's an addition.

But to say that God is able to keep his word as he wanted it doesn't change the inescapable fact that we have no way of knowing exactly what the New Testament texts looked like when they were first written.

 

[Mysteryman]

It seems to me that Mysteryman is correct in saying that we can't know for sure exactly what the biblical authors originally wrote. We get the New Testament from a number of manuscripts from the second and third centuries and later. The thing is, they aren't all identical and all of them are copies of copies of copies. So how do we know which, if any, preserve the original? Here's Wikipedia's list of textual variants in the New Testament.

If you look through the list you'll see that the vast majority of variantions aren't very significant and won't change the meaning of the text very much at all. But you'll also see that Mark 16:8-20 and John 7:53-8:11 are almost certainly additions and Luke 22:43-44 and Matthew 16:2-3 are in serious doubt. There is uncertainty about the wording of the Lord's Prayer in Luke. The Johannine Comma is another famous example, although most Bibles now leave it out.

I would point out to Mysteryman that it's not a question of translation. These variants are in the oldest Greek manuscripts we have. I'd also point out that Matthew 27:51-52, which started this thread, are unanimously included in every manuscript. We have no reason to think that's an addition.

But to say that God is able to keep his word as he wanted it doesn't change the inescapable fact that we have no way of knowing exactly what the New Testament texts looked like when they were first written.

Hi Bob

Actually Matt. 27:52 & 53 are additions. Verse 51 is holy writ.

Here is another good example though of making a suggestive thought that is not true. It does not matter if you go back as far as you can , and then claim that these two verses were still in the oldest editions of the texts. This would have no significance whatsoever. We just do not have any of the originals that could document one way or another.

So there has to be a better way in which one can find out if these two verses were additions or not. And there is a better way. However, it is spiritual. And I have dealt with this previously within this thread. God always establishes His Word twice ! Then you know it is true and of God.

The graves opening up and them going into the holy city as a witness never happened ! And there is no second account of this happening either ! So it stands alone. And no account can stand alone and be holy writ.

Bless

 

[glorydaz]

Ah, it's refreshing to hear someone who believes God is able to keep His Word exactly how He wants it. Man thinks he is so smart, but God is so far above all of man's feeble efforts. The minute we allow the Bible to be torn to shreds, the enemy has his foot in the door. We have the Holy Spirit as a witness, and He makes it quite clear to the children of God that the Word of God is all truth and kept by His power. :amen

PS...If by reading the Word, we can't discern what is meant by the word "brother" and "brethern" then we must be leaning on our own understanding instead of the enlightment of the Spirit which makes it clear to even the simplest among us. In fact, we'd do better by asking a new believer instead of someone who has studied the word "brother" into the ground. :biglaugh

I would rather see spiritual growth, instead of someone just agreeing with me. The Word tells us many things. One of them is for us to grow spiritually. Another is to be weary of false teachers. Another is to discern. The purpose of this thread is to discern. And thereby grow spiritually.

If one thinks and believes that the word --To Day --- means that very day, they have been deceived by the improper translation of the words -- in that day--- . The adversary will try by any means to deceive. And guess what ? It is working. Jesus could not have any literal brothers for many reasons. And there is no way that that very day was the day of paradise. It was the day they died. And even for Jesus , he was in the grave for three days and three nights. And the false belief that the soul does not die, which stems from the greatest lie ever told, that when you die, "ye shall not surely die".

Maybe later today I will deal with these two words , which are also erroneous additons to the Word of God -- > hell fire

Bless

I'm getting tired of hearing this false claim.

The Greek word is semeron...definition this day, today

The KJV Strong's Version - 11 Verses
Lu 2:11 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Lu 4:21 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Lu 5:26 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
And they were all amazed, and they glorified God, and were filled with fear, saying, We have seen strange things to day.

Lu 12:28 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you,O ye of little faith?

Lu 13:32 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, andI do cures to day and to morrow, and the third dayI shall be perfected.

Lu 13:33 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
NeverthelessI must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Lu 19:5 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to dayI must abide at thy house.

Lu 19:9 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

Lu 22:34 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

Lu 23:43 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
And Jesus said unto him, VerilyI say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Lu 24:21 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote glorydaz : "I'm getting tired of hearing this false claim.

The Greek word is semeron...definition this day, today"

Hi glorydaz :

Yes, the greek word is "semeron" and it does not "mean" this day ! It can be translated "this day" or "in that day".

The greek word "semeron"is used, and it does mean "this day". However, it is refering to "that day" when he comes into his kingdom !

A proper translation would read - "In that day" (when I come into my kingdom), thou shalt be with me in paradise. And it is not wrong to say "in this day" (when I come into my kingdom), thou shalt be with me in paradise.

The context of the conversation must be rendered ! Jesus when he went to the grave did not go into his kingdom. He went to the grave -- sheol / hades ! Paradise is future !

Doctorines of men have been made because of this misunderstanding !

The thief on the cross said , and I quote - "remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom" < By you eliminating the words of the thief, your rendering of this scripture becomes faulty.

 

[glorydaz]

Quote glorydaz : "No, I'm saying man has a body, soul, and spirit.
The body is just the tent in which the soul and spirit of man resides.
You think the soul of man is just the breath of life, but the breath is the spirit that combines with the body to make the soul. You insist man's soul, which is the "self" of man dies, and I claim it remains with the spirit and not the body at the death of the body."


Hi glorydaz

Would you do me a huge favor ? You say alot, but do not support your comments with scripture ! Don't you think it is about time you do so ?

You've apparently decided to ignore the scripture I have given throughout this thread, so just to make you happy, I'll give you some more. ;)

Here we see God formed man of the dust of the ground (body), breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (spirit), and man became a living soul.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here we see the breath (spirit) of man is a lamp of God.
This is the part of man that is the conscience, intuition, and provides contact with God.

The breath of man [is] a lamp of Jehovah, Searching all the inner parts of the heart.

Unlike what you claim...God created man with his own spirit.

The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Here we see man has a spirit, soul, and body.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Our body is our earthly house..we desire our heavenly body else we be found "naked". Not dead, but naked.

skenos..Definition
a tabernacle, a tent
metaph. of the human body, in which the soul dwells as in a tent, and which is taken down at death

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

After the fall, when sin entered the world, no good thing dwells in the flesh.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

We know the soul and spirit comprise the "heart" of man...read these verses.
That's why the soul and spirit go together and the body is merely what houses the soul and spirit of man.

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

Here we see the mind (soul) and spirit working together.

Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

This post is getting too long, but I have many other verses that show the soul and spirit are together...not the soul and body (tent).

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote glorydaz :"Here we see the breath (spirit) of man is a lamp of God.
This is the part of man that is the conscience, intuition, and provides contact with God."

Hi glorydaz

I do realize that the spirit of man and the soul work together. But they are not the same in one !

You are calling the breath life of man the spirit of man, and this is unbiblical !

They are two completely different entities !

The spirit of man is given to man and goes back to the giver = God, when one dies.

However the soul does not !!

Our souls are our hearts. But the spirit of man is not ! The spirit of man is a tool, from which comes singing and laughter, crying, speech , understanding, the ability for God , who is Spirit, to speak to our spirit, wisdom and knowledge and understanding, etc. We are to rule our spirit of man - Proverbs 16:32 - It is no different than ruling your car, and how fast you will go. Our hearts decide how to rule our spirit of man.

Psalm 143:3 - 12 < Read these verses -- Notice how the two are seperate entities, but work together ?

The soul, is breath life, and memory, and the soul is your heart.

Isaiah 26:9 - "With my soul have I desired thee in the night ; yea , with my spirit within me will I seek thee early : for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness"

 

[glorydaz]

Quote glorydaz : "I'm getting tired of hearing this false claim.

The Greek word is semeron...definition this day, today"

Hi glorydaz :

Yes, the greek word is "semeron" and it does not "mean" this day ! It can be translated "this day" or "in that day".

The greek word "semeron"is used, and it does mean "this day". However, it is refering to "that day" when he comes into his kingdom !

A proper translation would read - "In that day" (when I come into my kingdom), thou shalt be with me in paradise. And it is not wrong to say "in this day" (when I come into my kingdom), thou shalt be with me in paradise.

The context of the conversation must be rendered ! Jesus when he went to the grave did not go into his kingdom. He went to the grave -- sheol / hades ! Paradise is future !

Doctorines of men have been made because of this misunderstanding !

The thief on the cross said , and I quote - "remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom" < By you eliminating the words of the thief, your rendering of this scripture becomes faulty.

You base your understanding of the meaning of "today" on the understanding of the thief on the cross?

When he said, "remember me when you come into your kingdom", our Lord said, "Today you will be with me in Paradise. And what did we learn when Jesus was here? That the kingdom of God was "at hand". Jesus rose to the throne as King and Priest. The kingdom of God is within.

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

How can there be children of the kingdom if there is no kingdom?

He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

How can Jesus deliver up the kingdom if He has no kingdom to deliver?

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

How can John say he's "in the kingdom" if there is no kingdom?

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Could it be the thief didn't understand what he was asking, so Jesus assured him his entry into the kingdom would be "today"? Think about it.

Paradise is where all the saints wait until we're given our glorified body at Jesus' return.
I guess I'll believe Jesus on this one...not the "wisdom" of men. :amen

 

[glorydaz]

Quote glorydaz :"Here we see the breath (spirit) of man is a lamp of God.
This is the part of man that is the conscience, intuition, and provides contact with God."

Hi glorydaz

I do realize that the spirit of man and the soul work together. But they are not the same in one !

You are calling the breath life of man the spirit of man, and this is unbiblical !

They are two completely different entities !

The spirit of man is given to man and goes back to the giver = God, when one dies.

However the soul does not !!

Our souls are our hearts. But the spirit of man is not ! The spirit of man is a tool, from which comes singing and laughter, crying, speech , understanding, the ability for God , who is Spirit, to speak to our spirit, wisdom and knowledge and understanding, etc. We are to rule our spirit of man - Proverbs 16:32 - It is no different than ruling your car, and how fast you will go. Our hearts decide how to rule our spirit of man.

Psalm 143:3 - 12 < Read these verses -- Notice how the two are seperate entities, but work together ?

The soul, is breath life, and memory, and the soul is your heart.

Isaiah 26:9 - "With my soul have I desired thee in the night ; yea , with my spirit within me will I seek thee early : for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness"

Nope, and each verse you quoted shows clearly that the soul is the mind, will, emotions of man and the spirit is the conscience, intuition and how we commune with God. Of course the spirit goes back to God, and the soul is right there with it. Only the dust of the body goes to the grave. I never claimed the soul and spirit are one and the same. Didn't you read my post? With the soul we're to mirror God, with the Spirit we fellowship with God. Together they comprise the heart of man. The outer shell (body) must fall to the ground before the soul and spirit spring forth into newness of life. That is why we are called to renew our mind (soul), and our spirit is to be controlled by the Spirit of God.

The inward man is the spirit. When we are born again, God's Spirit dwells within our human spirit causing us to be born again. We become a "new creation".

The outward man is the soul. Just as we are dressed in clothes, so our inward man (spirit) wears an outward man (soul). The soul is the place that contains our intellect, emotions, and will.
We express to others what is in our spirit through the soul. While we may receive a word of knowledge in our spirit, to express it, the context must be transferred to our soul (mind) and then spoken through our body (mouth).

You are calling the breath life of man the spirit of man, and this is unbiblical !

No, it's not....All throughout the Word "breath" is spirit.

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Job 4:9 - By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.

Job 27:3 - All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Job 33:4 - The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

And He saith unto me: `Prophesy unto the Spirit, prophesy, son of man, and thou hast said unto the Spirit: Thus said the Lord Jehovah: From the four winds come in, O Spirit, and breathe on these slain, and they do live.'

But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

God breathed spirit into dust (body) and man became a living soul.
Breath is spirit.

 

[Mysteryman]

Question from glorydaz : "How can Jesus deliver up the kingdom if He has no kingdom to deliver? "

Hi glorydaz

I believe you just answered your own question right here with this question. Jesus has not as of yet, delivered up the Kingdom to his Father.

How can he enter into his kingdom if it is not delivered up yet ? > I Corinth. 15:24 thru verse 28

 

[Vic C.]

This thread is a runaway train. It will be locked down and maybe unlocked pending Staff discussion. Please don't hold your breath. :D

I will end this with this quote from Sinthesis.

Now you display the mindset of a Muslim. You should be relieved the Lord is not compelled to follow your divine rules, lest He smite thee for willfully butchering scripture to satisfy your own ego. 2 ing

• Pro 18:2 - A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.