Erroneous additons to the Word of God !

[Mysteryman]

Hi

Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God !

Bless

Then how do you worm your way around:

• Jhn 8:51 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Hi S.

Cute play on words there (worm - slither around) ! LOL :rolling

So I suppose that you bring this verse to the conversation implying that you will not die ? If you claim that this verse means that you shall not die, then you have accepted hook, line, and sinker the lie that when you die , "ye shall not surely die" !

I am sure you have read the context ? They wanted to stone him because they thought he was lying, and especially after Jesus called them a liar - verse 55. And the fact that he put them on the spot by claiming that before Abraham was, "I am".

The death Jesus was speaking of, was the second death. Jesus wouldn't lie ! The Word has already been established, that we are appointed once to die ! < Hebrews 9:27 . And in the book of Ecc. it states in chapter 3:1 - 8 that there is a time for everything, even a "A time to be born and a time to die" < verse 2

Jesus knew what he was talking about. But the interesting things is, do those who read or hear understand ?

 

[Mysteryman]

Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God !

That's the extent of your response to defend your position???

"The greatest lie". Give me a break...

Hi f.

Acts 17:11 - "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so"

 

[Sinthesis]

Then how do you worm your way around:

• Jhn 8:51 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Hi S.

Cute play on words there (worm - slither around) ! LOL :rolling

So I suppose that you bring this verse to the conversation implying that you will not die ? If you claim that this verse means that you shall not die, then you have accepted hook, line, and sinker the lie that when you die , "ye shall not surely die" !

I am sure you have read the context ? They wanted to stone him because they thought he was lying, and especially after Jesus called them a liar - verse 55. And the fact that he put them on the spot by claiming that before Abraham was, "I am".

The death Jesus was speaking of, was the second death. Jesus wouldn't lie ! The Word has already been established, that we are appointed once to die ! < Hebrews 9:27 . And in the book of Ecc. it states in chapter 3:1 - 8 that there is a time for everything, even a "A time to be born and a time to die" < verse 2

Jesus knew what he was talking about. But the interesting things is, do those who read or hear understand ?

Very good! You've just acknowledged that there are two definitions of death.

Now, how do you reconcile the scriptural necessity of death in Hebrews 9:27 & Ecc 3:1-8 with:

• 1Th 4:17 - Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Mysteryman]

Question Sinthesis: "Now, how do you reconcile the scriptural necessity of death in Hebrews 9:27 & Ecc 3:1-8 with:


1Th 4:17 - Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. " "


Hi Sinthesis

Now this is a very good question, and again should be understood in light of its spiritual content.

The question at hand is "when you die" -- you don't really die, but go to a better place. In otherwords, "ye shall not surely die".

Those who are alive at the coming of our Lord most definately are not dead but alive. But this does not change the fact that some in Christ have died, correct ? And it does not change the fact, that the dead in Christ rise first at his coming, correct ?

Now, when Christ comes back to gather up the church, there will be some that will be alive. Being appointed to die once is still in effect. And there is a time to be born and a time to die. Now think on this for a moment. When Christ comes back those who are alive when he comes back, die. Now you might be thinking that what I just said contradicts I Thess. 4:17. But it doesn't, and here is why. The Word states that in Adam all die. And that in Christ all shall be made alive. Those who are alive at his coming , their bodies dies and falls back to dust. In order for a body to die, the body needs to loose soul life. The body returns to dust from which it was taken. And in this paticular situation the soul does not go to the grave, because the soul is caught up with those who were dead in Christ . And it tells us that we will meet the Lord together , at the same time , in the air , in the clouds.

The body loosing the soul, is death. The body no longer has breath life, so it dies. The Christian is raised (resurrected) soul and Spirit. Not body ! For we receive a new body fashioned liken unto his body.

Those who are alive at his coming are not raised from the dead. I want to be clear on this. They are raised from life, unto life everlasting. Even though their body dies. The key here is that the soul does not go to the grave. This is because we are alive at his coming. A key verse of understanding is I John 3:14 - "We know that we have passed from death unto life" < Which means that if you die, you wait for the order of your resurrection , which is the gathering up of the saints. Those alive pass from death unto life. Their body dies because it looses its soul, but the soul and the Christ in you go on unto eternal life with those who were dead and waiting for the gathering (which is the "hope" ) meet the Lord at the very same time, and we meet the Lord "together" .

Bless - MM

 

[francisdesales]

Acts 17:11 - "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so"

Then I suggest you become more noble and hop to it...

 

[Mysteryman]

Acts 17:11 - "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so"

Then I suggest you become more noble and hop to it...

Hi F.

Meaning ? ?

 

[francisdesales]

Acts 17:11 - "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so"

Then I suggest you become more noble and hop to it...

Hi F.

Meaning ? ?

The same meaning you posted Acts 17:11 for in the first place, MM.

 

[Mysteryman]

Acts 17:11 - "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so"

Then I suggest you become more noble and hop to it...

Hi F.

Meaning ? ?

The same meaning you posted Acts 17:11 for in the first place, MM.

Hi francis

Are you suggesting that we not follow by the example set forth in Acts 17:11 ? ? It was you that said that one of the greater lies , other than the greatest lie, that "ye shall not surely die", is this lie about sola sciptura, correct ?

 

[francisdesales]

Hi francis

Are you suggesting that we not follow by the example set forth in Acts 17:11 ? ? It was you that said that one of the greater lies , other than the greatest lie, that "ye shall not surely die", is this lie about sola sciptura, correct ?

The point of Acts 17 is not to revert to self-interpretation of Scriptures, but to be open to what it teaches, even implicitly, when taught by an apostle. There is precious little explicit citations about the Christ dying for the sake of man's sins in the Old Testament, the Bible available to the Bereans. This would be one of the LAST verses to use to back up sola scriptura. Scripture alone, using the OT, will not lead to the Proclamation that Jesus is Lord, without Christian interpretation, given by men.

Regards

 

[olympia]

Hi,

I have not read all the posts so this may have been covered, so if you will bear with me I would like to suggest in regards to Hebrews 9:27, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die..." that this verse is perhaps is talking about the cross when man died with Christ and was raised a new creature in Christ Jesus.

Romans 6:6, "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified (died) with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed..."

I think that the flesh is the body of sin!

Romans 7:18, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing..."

This is spiritually speaking of course, but nevertheless we are to reckon that we died with Christ as though it really happened. Christ gave faith substance, Hebrews 11:1and we are to believe in those things that be not as though they are.

Romans 6:5, "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death (at the cross), we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection (with a new body).

Only the flesh physically dies when man falls asleep, because flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God.

I Cor 15:35, "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die."

So as I understand it, the flesh died on the cross and the soul sleeps until the judgment, except for those who are alive at his coming and their fleshly bodies will be changed in the moment in the twinkling of an eye.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi francis

Are you suggesting that we not follow by the example set forth in Acts 17:11 ? ? It was you that said that one of the greater lies , other than the greatest lie, that "ye shall not surely die", is this lie about sola sciptura, correct ?

The point of Acts 17 is not to revert to self-interpretation of Scriptures, but to be open to what it teaches, even implicitly, when taught by an apostle. There is precious little explicit citations about the Christ dying for the sake of man's sins in the Old Testament, the Bible available to the Bereans. This would be one of the LAST verses to use to back up sola scriptura. Scripture alone, using the OT, will not lead to the Proclamation that Jesus is Lord, without Christian interpretation, given by men.

Regards

Hi fancis

You are side stepping the question here. This might be your opinion based upon what you may believe. However, how can this be a greater lie than the lie that when you die, "ye shall not surely die" ?

We know from scripture that God sends the church apostles, prophets, evangilists, Pastors and teachers. This never was in question. Nor do I know anyone that would deny this.

So I ask again, how can scripture alone be the greatest lie ever told ?

 

[Sinthesis]

Question Sinthesis: "Now, how do you reconcile the scriptural necessity of death in Hebrews 9:27 & Ecc 3:1-8 with:


1Th 4:17 - Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. " "


Hi Sinthesis

Now this is a very good question, and again should be understood in light of its spiritual content.

The question at hand is "when you die" -- you don't really die, but go to a better place. In otherwords, "ye shall not surely die".

Yet actually it is not. Search the scriptures as francisdesales suggested.

• Gen 3:4 - And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
  Gen 3:5 - For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The serpent never said 'when you die you don't really die, but go to a better place'.

Rather, 'You shall not surely die, but your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil'.

Your entire 'greatest lie ever told' argument is a strawman built from your own poor interpretation of scripture.

 

[Mysteryman]

Question Sinthesis: "Now, how do you reconcile the scriptural necessity of death in Hebrews 9:27 & Ecc 3:1-8 with:


1Th 4:17 - Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. " "


Hi Sinthesis

Now this is a very good question, and again should be understood in light of its spiritual content.

The question at hand is "when you die" -- you don't really die, but go to a better place. In otherwords, "ye shall not surely die".

Yet actually it is not. Search the scriptures as francisdesales suggested.

• Gen 3:4 - And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
  Gen 3:5 - For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The serpent never said 'when you die you don't really die, but go to a better place'.

Rather, 'You shall not surely die, but your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil'.

Your entire 'greatest lie ever told' argument is a strawman built from your own poor interpretation of scripture.

Hi there

Indeed the serpent did deceive the woman when he said - "ye shall not surely die". This same lie permeates in the church today. Saying that when you die you are raised up into heaven to be with the Lord. Meaning that the resurrection has passed already. Paul dealt with this in the first century church , as he explained this unto Timothy - II Timothy 2:18 -"the resurrection is passed already" - - "they overthrow the faith of some"

Today's lies always have a new twist, but it is the same old lie.

 

[francisdesales]

Hi fancis

You are side stepping the question here. This might be your opinion based upon what you may believe. However, how can this be a greater lie than the lie that when you die, "ye shall not surely die" ?

No it can't because you said "the soul lives on" is the greatest lie". Now we have a "greater than the greatest lie???"

Perhaps you haven't thought this out very well before making this claim?

We know from scripture that God sends the church apostles, prophets, evangilists, Pastors and teachers. This never was in question. Nor do I know anyone that would deny this.

So I ask again, how can scripture alone be the greatest lie ever told ?

Why do you think God continues to send apostles, prophets and evangelists IF sola scriptura was true? All we need to do is read and heed the Bible and ignore these other people.

The Bible never claims sola scriptura, so it is a self-defeating doctrine of men, anyways. A big fat lie.

Regards

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi fancis

You are side stepping the question here. This might be your opinion based upon what you may believe. However, how can this be a greater lie than the lie that when you die, "ye shall not surely die" ?

No it can't because you said "the soul lives on" is the greatest lie". Now we have a "greater than the greatest lie???"

Perhaps you haven't thought this out very well before making this claim?

We know from scripture that God sends the church apostles, prophets, evangilists, Pastors and teachers. This never was in question. Nor do I know anyone that would deny this.

So I ask again, how can scripture alone be the greatest lie ever told ?

Why do you think God continues to send apostles, prophets and evangelists IF sola scriptura was true? All we need to do is read and heed the Bible and ignore these other people.

The Bible never claims sola scriptura, so it is a self-defeating doctrine of men, anyways. A big fat lie.

Regards

Hi Francis

I wish you would make more sense with your comments. I do enjoy a logical discussion. However, your comments do not make any sense whatsoever !

Apostles and Prophets, etc, are going to use scripture and adhere to scripture and point towards scripture. If they do not, then they are not of the one true God, plain and simple !

You now are turning the truth into a lie. Which is a far cry from tying to point out what is the greatest lie that has ever been told from scripture !!

I used scripture to show you the greatest lie ever told to mankind. I also have claimed it to be the greatest lie ever told , as this same lie is still prevelant within christianity today.

So now you tell me that scripture alone is a lie, and that the greatest lie is not a lie at all by your claim that when you die, you just go on to a better place to be with the Lord.

 

[glorydaz]

Whoes Spirit is the spirit of man ?

The spirit of man is not ours, but God's . Genesis 6:3 - "My spirit (small "s") shall not always strive with man"

Ecc. 12:7 - "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was : and the spirit (small "s") shall return unto God who gave it "

Bless - MM

No, man has a spirit, and God has a Spirit.

God's Spirit....

3And Jehovah saith, `My Spirit doth not strive in man -- to the age; in their erring they [are] flesh:' and his days have been an hundred and twenty years.

Man's spirit....and the dust is man's body.

7And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.

 

[glorydaz]

No, you have not been listening to me ! I do not see our redemption as happening when our body is resurrected ! Christians do not need these bodies !

You claim that your soul has been redeemed, which is correct. But your claiming that your soul will not die because it has been redeemed. < Which is a lie = untruth !

Now you are claiming that your body awaits redemption. This is true, if you are "not" a Christian !

Non christians are going to be raised from corruption unto incorruption.

Christians are going to be raised from mortal , unto immortality. The Spirit of Christ in us does not die, it sleeps. Spirit can not die ! But soul and body can die ! This is why the spirit of man goes back to God , who gave it ! It is not "your" spirit ! It is a spirit that God gave you. It belongs to God, not you ! That is because it is not you ! It is only a tool.

I have been listening to you....that's why I'm trying to set you straight.
You see through a glass darkly.

Christians do, indeed, need bodies....they will be spiritual glorified bodies, because flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom. We achieve life everlasting...immortality...when we are born again of the Spirit. If we don't achieve it in this life, we never will.

You're trying to split the baby and say this verse is speaking of non-Christians as corruptible to incorruptible and Christians as changing from mortal to immortal. That's not true. Corruptible is mortal and incorruptible is immortal. You're confused.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I'll put this as nicely as I can. You're trying to understand spiritual things with your human understanding. Your confusion is changing the Word of God to fit some strange idea you've concocted on your own.

 

[Andrew]

Hi fancis

You are side stepping the question here. This might be your opinion based upon what you may believe. However, how can this be a greater lie than the lie that when you die, "ye shall not surely die" ?

No it can't because you said "the soul lives on" is the greatest lie". Now we have a "greater than the greatest lie???"

Perhaps you haven't thought this out very well before making this claim?

We know from scripture that God sends the church apostles, prophets, evangilists, Pastors and teachers. This never was in question. Nor do I know anyone that would deny this.

So I ask again, how can scripture alone be the greatest lie ever told ?

Why do you think God continues to send apostles, prophets and evangelists IF sola scriptura was true? All we need to do is read and heed the Bible and ignore these other people.

The Bible never claims sola scriptura, so it is a self-defeating doctrine of men, anyways. A big fat lie.

Regards

Hi Francis

I wish you would make more sense with your comments. I do enjoy a logical discussion. However, your comments do not make any sense whatsoever !

Apostles and Prophets, etc, are going to use scripture and adhere to scripture and point towards scripture. If they do not, then they are not of the one true God, plain and simple !

You now are turning the truth into a lie. Which is a far cry from tying to point out what is the greatest lie that has ever been told from scripture !!

I used scripture to show you the greatest lie ever told to mankind. I also have claimed it to be the greatest lie ever told , as this same lie is still prevelant within christianity today.

So now you tell me that scripture alone is a lie, and that the greatest lie is not a lie at all by your claim that when you die, you just go on to a better place to be with the Lord.

I think it's pretty obvious that if you are not confused MM, then you are here to create confusion. If you are of the latter disposition, then Jesus Christ is Lord and you cannot prevail.
Your questions and argument are flawed due to a mystery that has yet to be completely understood; the answer to which will throw you for a loop. The only thing Christians need to know is that Jesus conquered the grave and holds the keys to Death and Hades. In this their resurrection is assured in their faith, through the power of the Holy Spirit in them.
I think you need to learn what this means in order to understand;
Rev. 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the DEAD who die in the Lord from now on."

 

[francisdesales]

Hi Francis

I wish you would make more sense with your comments. I do enjoy a logical discussion. However, your comments do not make any sense whatsoever !

What part of my response didn't you get??? Let's look more closely.

Why do you think God continues to send apostles, prophets and evangelists IF sola scriptura was true? All we need to do is read and heed the Bible and ignore these other people.

Pretty self explanatory, right? Do you know what sola scriptura means? If true, we don't need apostles, prophets and evangelists to teach us how to read the Scriptures correctly. Since God gives us these people to help us come to know God, sola scriptura makes no sense.


The Bible never claims sola scriptura, so it is a self-defeating doctrine of men, anyways

That appears to be in English, so it's self explanatory. Sola Scriptura claims that everything we believe as a Christian must be explicitly found in the Scriptures - the problem with that is the doctrine of men is nowhere found in the Scriptures, quite the opposite, it is denied...

Apostles and Prophets, etc, are going to use scripture and adhere to scripture and point towards scripture. If they do not, then they are not of the one true God, plain and simple !

Do you know what sola scriptura means??? Maybe not. Perhaps you should define it.

You now are turning the truth into a lie. Which is a far cry from tying to point out what is the greatest lie that has ever been told from scripture !!

Circular arguments will get you nowhere. And I thought you liked "logical arguments"...

I used scripture to show you the greatest lie ever told to mankind.

You cite Scriptures incorrectly, which is the main problem with sola scriptura. Any person with a Bible can cut and paste and ignore what they choose. Furthermore, you ignore sections of Scriptures cited previously. Thus, your argument falls apart when scrutinized by someone not taken in by your misrepresentations.

I also have claimed it to be the greatest lie ever told , as this same lie is still prevelant within christianity today.

Make up your mind, what's the greatest lie ever told???

So now you tell me that scripture alone is a lie, and that the greatest lie is not a lie at all by your claim that when you die, you just go on to a better place to be with the Lord.

When I die, I will go to a better place. If it is immediately, or after 1000 years of sleep, doesn't really matter, in the big picture, since IF, IF my soul dies, I wouldn't know the time passage, so it would be like waking up from an overnight sleep. Big woop, quite frankly.

The "greatest lie" is the "greatest overstatement", in reality.

 

[Mysteryman]

Whoes Spirit is the spirit of man ?

The spirit of man is not ours, but God's . Genesis 6:3 - "My spirit (small "s") shall not always strive with man"

Ecc. 12:7 - "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was : and the spirit (small "s") shall return unto God who gave it "

Bless - MM

No, man has a spirit, and God has a Spirit.

God's Spirit....

3And Jehovah saith, `My Spirit doth not strive in man -- to the age; in their erring they [are] flesh:' and his days have been an hundred and twenty years.

Man's spirit....and the dust is man's body.
[quote="Ecclesiastes 12:7 (Young's Literal Translation)":24dmfvta] 7And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.

[/quote:24dmfvta]


Hi glorydaz

What you are doing, is side stepping the actual issue we have been discussing !

You make the spirit of man and the soul the same in one. But this is not a true rendering of the scriptures !

The spirit of man is just that - the spirit of man

The soul is just that - your soul

When you die , the spirit of man goes back to God, who gave it.

When you die, your soul dies and goes to the grave with your body - Psalm 49:15 - "But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave"

Also, I am still waiting for you to explain how from the scriptures, that paradise is the sheol, and that this is where your soul goes and that this is where the Lord and the soul reside in sheol, and that sheol is paradise.