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Erroneous additons to the Word of God !

logical bob said:
Isaiah 26:19?

Hi Bob

I appreciate your input. But Isaiah 26:19 is a reflection of the Prophet Elisha. It is what we would call an extention. Meaning, that Elisha's dead body , his bones to be exact, still had the Spirit of God upon them. And a dead person was thrown upon this dead body (bones) and he became alive again.

This "extention" within Isaiah is dealing with the dead bodies of believers = Christians, who have Christ in them.

At the point of this record in Matthew chapter 27, there were no Christians. The Word tells us, that the dead in Christ shall rise first, and those who are alive at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ to gather up the Church, will meet him in the air/clouds. The Word tells us, that we were dead in our sins, yet we have been quicken by the Spirit of God that is within us - Romans 4:17 and especially I Peter 3:18 - "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit" < This is a reflection of the Prophet Elisha and his dead body / bones and the Spirit of God still remained with his dead bones.

There are no references that will substanciate Matt. 27:52 & 53 within the OT propphets.

Take care

IN Christ - MM
 
The text at Matthew 27:52, 53 concerning “the memorial tombs [that] were opened†as the result of an earthquake occurring at the time of Jesus’ death has caused considerable discussion, some holding that a resurrection occurred. However, a comparison with the texts concerning the resurrection makes clear that these verses do not describe a resurrection but merely a throwing of bodies out of their tombs, similar to incidents that have taken place in more recent times, as in Ecuador in 1949 and again in Bogotá, Colombia, in 1962, when 200 corpses in the cemetery were thrown out of their tombs by a violent earth tremor.—El Tiempo, Bogotá, Colombia, July 31, 1962.

Epiphanius and other early Church Fathers taught that the holy ones literally came to life and went with the resurrected Jesus to heaven. Augustine, Theophylactus, and Zigabenus believed that these dead ones received a temporary resurrection but later returned to their tombs. The latter opinion, however, “did not gain wide recognition,†comments scholar Erich Fascher. When rendering Matthew 27:52, 53, many modern Bible translations give the impression that a resurrection took place. Some Bibles, such as the New World Translation, points to the effects of an earthquake. Why ?

First, whoever “the holy ones†were, Matthew did not say they were raised up. He said their bodies, or corpses, were. Second, he did not say these bodies came to life. He said they were raised up, and the Greek verb e·gei´ro, meaning to “raise up,†does not always refer to a resurrection. It can, among other things, also mean to “lift out†from a pit or to “get up†from the ground. (Matthew 12:11; 17:7; Luke 1:69)

The upheaval at Jesus’ death opened tombs, tossing lifeless bodies into the open. Such occurrences during earthquakes were reported in the second century C.E. by Greek writer Aelius Aristides and more recently, in 1962, in Colombia.

This view of the event harmonizes with Bible teachings. In 1 Corinthians chapter 15, the apostle Paul gives convincing proof of the resurrection, but he completely ignores Matthew 27:52, 53. So do all other Bible writers. (Acts 2:32, 34)

The corpses raised up at Jesus’ death could not have come to life in the way Epiphanius thought, for on the third day thereafter, Jesus became “the firstborn from the dead.†(Colossians 1:18) Anointed Christians, also called “holy ones,†were promised a share in the first resurrection during Christ’s presence, not in the first century.(1 Corinthians 15:23)

Most Bible commentators have difficulty explaining verse 53, although several of them suggest that verse 52 describes the opening of tombs by the earthquake and the exposing of newly buried corpses. For example, German scholar Theobald Daechsel gives the following translation: “And tombs opened up, and many corpses of saints laying at rest were lifted up.â€

Who were those that “entered into the holy city†a considerable time later, namely after Jesus had been resurrected ? As seen above, the exposed bodies remained lifeless, so Matthew must refer to persons who visited the tombs and brought news of the event into Jerusalem. Thus, an accurate Bible translation is essential to gaining a deep and proper understanding of God's word.
 
logical bob said:
Isaiah 26:19?

Isaiah 26:19 said:
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Yep, or this one...
Ezekiel 37:13 said:
And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

To show forth this...
1 Corinthians 15:55 said:
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
And this....
Colossians 2:15 said:
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
 
The Word of God should always fit together like a hand fits a glove.

Trying to "make" something fit is not suppose to be the way in which one looks at scripture.

The Word can always be verified by a previous act or comment by the Prophets. Jesus Christ lived those prophesies, and they continued on into the church epistles and later epistles.

Something to think about.

IN Christ - MM
 
Mysteryman said:
logical bob said:
Isaiah 26:19?

Hi Bob

I appreciate your input. But Isaiah 26:19 is a reflection of the Prophet Elisha. It is what we would call an extention. Meaning, that Elisha's dead body , his bones to be exact, still had the Spirit of God upon them. And a dead person was thrown upon this dead body (bones) and he became alive again.

This "extention" within Isaiah is dealing with the dead bodies of believers = Christians, who have Christ in them.

Actually, many people do see this portion of scripture applying to Matt. 27.
It's seen as a messianic prophecy, and it's one of the few passages in the OT referring to the resurrection.
 
Mysteryman said:
The Word of God should always fit together like a hand fits a glove.

Trying to "make" something fit is not suppose to be the way in which one looks at scripture.

The Word can always be verified by a previous act or comment by the Prophets. Jesus Christ lived those prophesies, and they continued on into the church epistles and later epistles.

Something to think about.

IN Christ - MM

Another thing to remember is that portions of scripture often have more than one meaning.
Sometimes we get so busy looking at one and forget there are others.
 
nadab said:
The text at Matthew 27:52, 53 concerning “the memorial tombs [that] were opened†as the result of an earthquake occurring at the time of Jesus’ death has caused considerable discussion, some holding that a resurrection occurred. However, a comparison with the texts concerning the resurrection makes clear that these verses do not describe a resurrection but merely a throwing of bodies out of their tombs, similar to incidents that have taken place in more recent times, as in Ecuador in 1949 and again in Bogotá, Colombia, in 1962, when 200 corpses in the cemetery were thrown out of their tombs by a violent earth tremor.—El Tiempo, Bogotá, Colombia, July 31, 1962.

Epiphanius and other early Church Fathers taught that the holy ones literally came to life and went with the resurrected Jesus to heaven. Augustine, Theophylactus, and Zigabenus believed that these dead ones received a temporary resurrection but later returned to their tombs. The latter opinion, however, “did not gain wide recognition,†comments scholar Erich Fascher. When rendering Matthew 27:52, 53, many modern Bible translations give the impression that a resurrection took place. Some Bibles, such as the New World Translation, points to the effects of an earthquake. Why ?

First, whoever “the holy ones†were, Matthew did not say they were raised up. He said their bodies, or corpses, were. Second, he did not say these bodies came to life. He said they were raised up, and the Greek verb e·gei´ro, meaning to “raise up,†does not always refer to a resurrection. It can, among other things, also mean to “lift out†from a pit or to “get up†from the ground. (Matthew 12:11; 17:7; Luke 1:69)

The upheaval at Jesus’ death opened tombs, tossing lifeless bodies into the open. Such occurrences during earthquakes were reported in the second century C.E. by Greek writer Aelius Aristides and more recently, in 1962, in Colombia.

This view of the event harmonizes with Bible teachings. In 1 Corinthians chapter 15, the apostle Paul gives convincing proof of the resurrection, but he completely ignores Matthew 27:52, 53. So do all other Bible writers. (Acts 2:32, 34)

The corpses raised up at Jesus’ death could not have come to life in the way Epiphanius thought, for on the third day thereafter, Jesus became “the firstborn from the dead.†(Colossians 1:18) Anointed Christians, also called “holy ones,†were promised a share in the first resurrection during Christ’s presence, not in the first century.(1 Corinthians 15:23)

Most Bible commentators have difficulty explaining verse 53, although several of them suggest that verse 52 describes the opening of tombs by the earthquake and the exposing of newly buried corpses. For example, German scholar Theobald Daechsel gives the following translation: “And tombs opened up, and many corpses of saints laying at rest were lifted up.â€

Who were those that “entered into the holy city†a considerable time later, namely after Jesus had been resurrected ? As seen above, the exposed bodies remained lifeless, so Matthew must refer to persons who visited the tombs and brought news of the event into Jerusalem. Thus, an accurate Bible translation is essential to gaining a deep and proper understanding of God's word.


Matt. 27:51-53 said:
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Notice the graves were opened when the earth quaked. Many bodies of the saints which slept "arose". They came out of the graves after His resurrection and "went" into the holy city and "appeared unto" many. This does not say they were cast from their graves. The point is...the open graves...declaring death no longer has a hold on the believer. This was done specifically as a sign of the work done on the cross.
 
Mysteryman said:
I'm glad you asked.

The scriptures are true. Our translations are not true -- to their word. Too many people assume something because they can read it on paper made with ink. Is this what God asks of us

What God asks us is to understand that all scripture written by His prophets is inspired by Him. We can trust God’s word because He gives us many tools by which to examine what is written to see its validity. Some scriptures are reiterated over again in both the OT and the NT. Some scriptures can be verified because non Christians historians have verified what Christian followers of Christ’s’ time have stated. Some scriptures can be verified because many of the authors of the bible confirm what the other has said. Some scriptures can be verified because linguist have uncovered the original Greek and Hebrew meanings of the text and the context of history from which the text was written. All scriptures can be verified by the Holy Spirit.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right.

So do you believe that God is slow when He stated that all scriptures are inspired by Him. Did he make a mistake and mean to say all “oral traditions.†Surely, God knew that the scriptures He spoke of were written in ink on the very paper you seem to question. Surely He would have made a way to insure that infallible man would not get away with trying to sneak in scriptures without it being noticed by someone. I know of one such scripture…but just because it is in the KJV does not mean other scholars agree and in fact, the only place where you can find this addition is in the KJV because other scholars will not add it in. So, you see, it is not really that simple to add to the scripts without scholars making some note of the change.

Mysteryman said:
Does not the Word tell us that those with the Spirit of truth will teach you all truth. Which means two things. You or anyone who has the Spirit of truth does not need a teacher - I John 2:27.

1. The scriptures do not tell us that those with the Spirit of truth will teach us. It is the Spirit himself that teaches us.
John 16: 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.

2. 1 John 2 does not say we don’t need a teacher. It says we don’t need anyone to teach us what is true. In other words, we don’t need people to tell us if someone is lying to us.

1 John 2
20 But you are not like that, for the Holy One has given you his Spirit, and all of you know the truth. 21 So I am writing to you not because you don’t know the truth but because you know the difference between truth and lies. 22 And who is a liar? Anyone who says that Jesus is not the Christ. Anyone who denies the Father and the Son is an antichrist. 23 Anyone who denies the Son doesn’t have the Father, either. But anyone who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24 So you must remain faithful to what you have been taught from the beginning. If you do, you will remain in fellowship with the Son and with the Father. 25 And in this fellowship we enjoy the eternal life he promised us.
26 I am writing these things to warn you about those who want to lead you astray. 27 But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.

Mysteryman said:
When I bring something for people to think about. I either hear, that they are walking with the Holy Spirit, or that God will not allow anything of error into our bibles. But this kind of thinking is not true. I am not against anyone who walks with the Holy Spirit. But just someone saying that they walk with the Holy Spirit does not make it true.

Who can know a man’s heart except God? I’m sure you believe the Holy Spirit is in you too. I can only judge you by your fruit and I don’t know you well enough to make that determination. But only God knows your intentions.

Mysteryman said:
God's Word tells us that he "establishes" his Word. That means that there needs to be more than one reference to any given event or comment made within the Word of God.

Please do share with us the verse that states God “establishes His Word†and how that translates to the need for more than one reference given to any give statement in the scriptures. I can name a few scriptures that are only stated once….that’s an awful lot of scriptures to throw out because it has not been referenced before.

Mysteryman said:
I have no problem with Elisha and the dead body coming back to life. I have no problem with Lazarus being raised from the dead. However, I have a big problem with this record in Matt. 27:52 & 53 for many reasons. One would be its placement. It is placed "at the death" of our Lord. Not at this resurrection. Plus, there is never any reference to all these dead bodies being raised from the dead after Jesus Christ resurrection from the dead. Peter and the other apostles were in hiding and they ran to the cave/grave of our Lord, after they were told by a woman, that Jesus sent unto them. Would it not stand to reason, that during the 40 days after our Lord's resurrection, that something would be mentioned of those being raised from the dead ? Yet, there is no mention of this anywhere.

What about the others that Christ raised from the dead while He was alive. What about Tabitha, whom the apostles raised from the dead after Christ’s death. We don’t hear about them again either, so should these events be discounted. It also seems you have a problem with the placement of Mat 27…but who are we to question God. Do you think Christ was sleep the way we will sleep when we die? His physical body was dead but we do have evidence that Christ was busy during the three days before His resurrection.

1 Peter 3
18 Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.
19 So he went and preached to the spirits in prison—20 those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood. 21 And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
22 Now Christ has gone to heaven. He is seated in the place of honor next to God, and all the angels and authorities and powers accept his authority.

1 Peter 4
6 That is why the Good News was preached to those who are now dead—so although they were destined to die like all people, they now live forever with God in the Spirit.

Ephesians 4
9 Notice that it says “he ascended.†This clearly means that Christ also descended to our lowly world. 10 And the same one who descended is the one who ascended higher than all the heavens, so that he might fill the entire universe with himself.

When Christ died he was busy in hell unless you know of someone else who preached the gospel to those who died during Noah’s time. This gospel was also preached to those who were dead…perhaps not from Noah’s time. What better time than any for some of these people who were godly and accepted Christ’s message to leave their graves and appear to people in Jerusalem. So in essence you have Christ preaching the gospel while in hell and some people, after hearing this message, left their graves to appear to people who would have known them to be dead. This passage would not have been as effective in another part of the telling of the events of Christ from death to resurrection.


Mysteryman said:
With the prophet Elisha, God doubled the Spirit of God upon him. Even when he was dead, and only his bones remained, the Spirit of God was upon the bones of Elisha. Others were raised from the dead and there is always a purpose given.

By the time Elisha was dead scriptures had already established that he was blessed. A reading of the verse states that the dead man came to life when buried with Elisha and says nothing more. It is stated as fact and serves no purpose is so far as it is trying to relay a specific message to the reader. As far as I can tell this is the only mention of this event…yet you seem to believe this happened even though it was not verified twice in scripture? (again according to what I could uncover…perhaps you can tell me where it was spoken of again.)

Mysteryman said:
God never wants us to believe anything by blind faith.

A verse here would be nice.

Mysteryman said:
Even Jesus said that the sign of his resurrection would be as the prophet Jonah. Even here Jesus said that there would be a sign, and that sign was Jonah. This is not blind faith !

Christ did not say the “sign of His resurrection†would be as the prophet Jonah. The religious teachers at that time asked for Christ to show a sign to prove His authority, to which He stated that the only sign He would give them is sign of the prophet Jonah.

Matt 12
38 One day some teachers of religious law and Pharisees came to Jesus and said, “Teacher, we want you to show us a miraculous sign to prove your authority.â€
39 But Jesus replied, “Only an evil, adulterous generation would demand a miraculous sign; but the only sign I will give them is the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish for three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.
41 “The people of Nineveh will stand up against this generation on judgment day and condemn it, for they repented of their sins at the preaching of Jonah. Now someone greater than Jonah is here—but you refuse to repent.

Blessings,
Dee
 
Mysteryman said:
My question was, "where are the witnesses " ? When these graves opened up, where were the witnesses ? The answer is -> There were none ! No witness, then it is not true !
How do you know there were no witnesses?

Mysteryman said:
Where does it say in the OT Prophets, that after his resurrection that the graves would open right after his resurrection ?
It doesn't and it is irrelevant.

Mysteryman said:
And here is another question(s)

Not only who were the witnesses, but "what" was the witness to represent ?

Another question: Why many who were dead, and not all ?

Another question: God is no respector of persons, right ? Why these paticular ones who were dead, why are they now alive from the dead ?
Unanswerable and irrelevant.
 
D4Christ said:
When Christ died he was busy in hell unless you know of someone else who preached the gospel to those who died during Noah’s time. This gospel was also preached to those who were dead…perhaps not from Noah’s time. What better time than any for some of these people who were godly and accepted Christ’s message to leave their graves and appear to people in Jerusalem. So in essence you have Christ preaching the gospel while in hell and some people, after hearing this message, left their graves to appear to people who would have known them to be dead. This passage would not have been as effective in another part of the telling of the events of Christ from death to resurrection.

You're correct. I believe one of the reasons for the open graves and some of the saints being raised from the dead was to show us that there were people saved by faith before the cross. They'd had to wait but looked forward to that day.

And hell is correctly translated hades, KJ uses hell for sheol, hades, etc. Hades was the place of the dead prior to Christ's resurrection. It was the waiting place of the dead...those OT saints who had to wait until the cross before they could see the Lord. Abraham was there waiting...David was there waiting...the graves were opened as a symbol of death being defeated at the cross.

KJ reads "hell", but it's hades in the Greek and Sheol in Hebrew. Abraham's bosom or Paradise is the part of hades/sheol where the righteous wait.
Luke 16:22-24 said:
`And it came to pass, that the poor man died, and that he was carried away by the messengers to the bosom of Abraham -- and the rich man also died, and was buried; and in the hades having lifted up his eyes, being in torments, he doth see Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom, and having cried, he said, Father Abraham, deal kindly with me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and may cool my tongue, because I am distressed in this flame.
The turning of God's anger is fulfilled at the cross when Jesus became a propitiation and reconciled mankind to God. The veil is rent, the graves are opened, and Jesus brought the OT saints..all in Paradise to heaven. Paul visited Paradise, so we know it was taken from the lower parts of the earth to the third heaven where they wait for their glorified bodies...as do we.

Job 14:13 said:
O that in Sheol Thou wouldst conceal me, Hide me till the turning of Thine anger, Set for me a limit, and remember me.

His soul was not left to hades....it's all throughout the scripture. King David spoke of that day.
Acts 2:30-32 said:
a prophet, therefore, being, and knowing that with an oath God did swear to him, out of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, to raise up the Christ, to sit upon his throne, having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. `This Jesus did God raise up, of which we are all witnesses;
 
Question from D4Christ: "Please do share with us the verse that states God “establishes His Word†and how that translates to the need for more than one reference given to any give statement in the scriptures. I can name a few scriptures that are only stated once….that’s an awful lot of scriptures to throw out because it has not been referenced before."

Hi

There does not need to be two references in the Word pertaining to any given statement. But there does need to be two different references pertaining to two events ! The Prophets in the OT prophesied about an event that took place then and in the future.

God always "establishes" His Word. The word "establish" means twice, "to make firm".

Genesis 41:32 - "And for that the dream was "doubled" unto Pharaoh "twice" ; it is because the thing is "established" by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass"

Throughout all of scripture, God establishes His Word.

1. The Law of Moses/God 2. The Law of Liberty
1. First Adam 2. Last Adam (also called the second Adam)
1. Born 2. Born again
1. Israel (Jacob - Nation 2. The Israel from above
1. Jerusalem here in bondage 2. The Jerusalem above is free and the mother of us all (yet barren)
1. First resurrection 2. Second resurrection
1. First death 2. Second death
1.Melchizedek (High Priest of God) 2. Christ (High Priest for ever more , after the order of Melchizedek)

Shall I go on ?

And the list is very long I might add !

If this "event" took place in Matthew 27:52 & 53 there "must" be a second reference to it ! !

And quess what ? There is none !

The only record that comes close is Ezekiel 37:12 & 13 & 14 < But, this is not talking about Matt. 27:52 & 53 ! Ezekiel 37: 12 - 14 is a prophecy talking about the then, and the future. The future which is now, is the Israel of God which is "spiritual", walking by the Spirit of God ! The Israel of this earth deals with the flesh - I Corinth. 10:18. And the Israel of God is Spiritual - Galatians 6:16 (but read context which includes chapter 5)

And in dealing with Matthew 27:52 & 53 you can not close your eyes to the red flags that are there. Placement is vital to understanding. The placement of these two verses are totally out of proper context. Which shows that whoever put them in our bibles, was not sure where to place them. If they were of the One true God, they would have never been place "at" his death ! They would have been placed at his resurrection. Verse 53 says that "after" his resurrection they came out of the graves and went into the holy city. < Now, which of you know where the holy city is located ? Or maybe I should ask, which holy city ? So now you will have to guess as to which city it is talking about, right ? Another red flag ! Now, if it is talking about Jerusalem. There now needs to be further references pertaining to Jerusalem and this event happening there. Also notice verse 53 of Matt. 27 where it states that those who came out of the graves "went into" the holy city. Which would mean that they did not come out of the graves from within Jerusalem, but from somewhwere else, and then went into Jerusalem. So now, we have another red flag. From where , which town or place did these graves open up ? Guess what , you don't have a clue, do you ? So why not stop guessing , and open your eyes to the fact that these two verses were added by men/man ! ?

Love IN Christ - MM
 
glorydaz said:
nadab said:
The text at Matthew 27:52, 53 concerning “the memorial tombs [that] were opened†as the result of an earthquake occurring at the time of Jesus’ death has caused considerable discussion, some holding that a resurrection occurred. However, a comparison with the texts concerning the resurrection makes clear that these verses do not describe a resurrection but merely a throwing of bodies out of their tombs, similar to incidents that have taken place in more recent times, as in Ecuador in 1949 and again in Bogotá, Colombia, in 1962, when 200 corpses in the cemetery were thrown out of their tombs by a violent earth tremor.—El Tiempo, Bogotá, Colombia, July 31, 1962.

Epiphanius and other early Church Fathers taught that the holy ones literally came to life and went with the resurrected Jesus to heaven. Augustine, Theophylactus, and Zigabenus believed that these dead ones received a temporary resurrection but later returned to their tombs. The latter opinion, however, “did not gain wide recognition,†comments scholar Erich Fascher. When rendering Matthew 27:52, 53, many modern Bible translations give the impression that a resurrection took place. Some Bibles, such as the New World Translation, points to the effects of an earthquake. Why ?

First, whoever “the holy ones†were, Matthew did not say they were raised up. He said their bodies, or corpses, were. Second, he did not say these bodies came to life. He said they were raised up, and the Greek verb e·gei´ro, meaning to “raise up,†does not always refer to a resurrection. It can, among other things, also mean to “lift out†from a pit or to “get up†from the ground. (Matthew 12:11; 17:7; Luke 1:69)

The upheaval at Jesus’ death opened tombs, tossing lifeless bodies into the open. Such occurrences during earthquakes were reported in the second century C.E. by Greek writer Aelius Aristides and more recently, in 1962, in Colombia.

This view of the event harmonizes with Bible teachings. In 1 Corinthians chapter 15, the apostle Paul gives convincing proof of the resurrection, but he completely ignores Matthew 27:52, 53. So do all other Bible writers. (Acts 2:32, 34)

The corpses raised up at Jesus’ death could not have come to life in the way Epiphanius thought, for on the third day thereafter, Jesus became “the firstborn from the dead.†(Colossians 1:18) Anointed Christians, also called “holy ones,†were promised a share in the first resurrection during Christ’s presence, not in the first century.(1 Corinthians 15:23)

Most Bible commentators have difficulty explaining verse 53, although several of them suggest that verse 52 describes the opening of tombs by the earthquake and the exposing of newly buried corpses. For example, German scholar Theobald Daechsel gives the following translation: “And tombs opened up, and many corpses of saints laying at rest were lifted up.â€

Who were those that “entered into the holy city†a considerable time later, namely after Jesus had been resurrected ? As seen above, the exposed bodies remained lifeless, so Matthew must refer to persons who visited the tombs and brought news of the event into Jerusalem. Thus, an accurate Bible translation is essential to gaining a deep and proper understanding of God's word.


Matt. 27:51-53 said:
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Notice the graves were opened when the earth quaked. Many bodies of the saints which slept "arose". They came out of the graves after His resurrection and "went" into the holy city and "appeared unto" many. This does not say they were cast from their graves. The point is...the open graves...declaring death no longer has a hold on the believer. This was done specifically as a sign of the work done on the cross.

The resurrection of the "holy ones" did not occur at the same time as Jesus resurrection, for these were not to be raised to life until Jesus invisible "presence", far distant into the future. The apostle Paul wrote that "Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death]....For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence."(1Cor 15:20, 22, 23, "presence", Greek pa·rou·si´as, rendered correctly by the King James Bible at Phil. 2:12 and 1 Cor 10:10, but not at 1 Cor 15:23; see the online interlinear Scripture4all )
 
Quote D4Christ: "What about the others that Christ raised from the dead while He was alive. What about Tabitha, whom the apostles raised from the dead after Christ’s death. We don’t hear about them again either, so should these events be discounted. It also seems you have a problem with the placement of Mat 27…but who are we to question God. Do you think Christ was sleep the way we will sleep when we die? His physical body was dead but we do have evidence that Christ was busy during the three days before His resurrection."

Hi

What eveidence ? Are you going to claim another man made added scripture is you evidence ?

By all means, show us this eveidence .

Love IN Christ - MM
 
nadab said:
The resurrection of the "holy ones" did not occur at the same time as Jesus resurrection, for these were not to be raised to life until Jesus invisible "presence", far distant into the future. The apostle Paul wrote that "Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death]....For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence."(1Cor 15:20, 22, 23, "presence", Greek pa·rou·si´as, rendered correctly by the King James Bible at Phil. 2:12 and 1 Cor 10:10, but not at 1 Cor 15:23; see the online interlinear Scripture4all )

The graves were opened at Christ's death, the bodies were raised at His resurrection. Raised as Tabitha and Lazarus were...I don't believe they were "resurrected" with glorified bodies.
John 11:43 said:
And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
Acts 9:40 said:
But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

Christ defeated death and satan at the cross. The opening of the graves and the raising of dead bodies were symbols of what had actually taken place...with the saints in Sheol waiting to be taken to heaven at Christ's resurrection. They were a picture of what was happening with the OT saints as well as what will happen in the future general resurrection. The graves will be opened and we will be resurrected.
Colossians 2:14-16 said:
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
1 Corinthians 15:21 said:
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
 
Mysteryman said:
Quote D4Christ: "What about the others that Christ raised from the dead while He was alive. What about Tabitha, whom the apostles raised from the dead after Christ’s death. We don’t hear about them again either, so should these events be discounted. It also seems you have a problem with the placement of Mat 27…but who are we to question God. Do you think Christ was sleep the way we will sleep when we die? His physical body was dead but we do have evidence that Christ was busy during the three days before His resurrection."

Hi

What eveidence ? Are you going to claim another man made added scripture is you evidence ?

By all means, show us this eveidence .

Love IN Christ - MM

There is no man made added scripture....your say so does not constitute "evidence".

The Bible is the Word of God and you're spreading false accusations against it. :shame
 
Mysteryman said:
Question from D4Christ: "Please do share with us the verse that states God “establishes His Word†and how that translates to the need for more than one reference given to any give statement in the scriptures. I can name a few scriptures that are only stated once….that’s an awful lot of scriptures to throw out because it has not been referenced before."

Hi

There does not need to be two references in the Word pertaining to any given statement. But there does need to be two different references pertaining to two events ! The Prophets in the OT prophesied about an event that took place then and in the future.

Now you’ve lost me…there needs to be two references for every two events? Or did you mean to say two references for each event mentioned. Either way, this seems to be a game of semantics. Nevertheless, you still have not proven that God states anywhere in scripture that an event has to be mentioned twice for it to be relevant. All you did was show an instance in which Joseph tells Pharaoh that his two similar dreams meant that the dream was valid. This does not make your case for all of scripture.

Gen 41:32
32 As for having two similar dreams, it means that these events have been decreed by God, and he will soon make them happen.

Mysteryman said:
God always "establishes" His Word. The word "establish" means twice, "to make firm".

Your fond of saying this…but are you suggesting that we should not believe pen and ink passed down for millennia and trust what you state. Where does it say this in scripture expressly? In order for this to be true, every statement, event, vision, or dream would have to be referenced twice in scripture. Now you and I both know that while the bible repeats many of its events, there are some very important things only spoken of once. Your theory sounds nice…most do. But unless you have a relevant scripture, it is out of order to make push your theory as something necessary for a passage to be true, even if it can be proven to be true in many instances.

Btw….can you show me where the word “establish†means twice. I could not find it on dictionary.com or Strong’s.

Mysteryman said:
Throughout all of scripture, God establishes His Word.

1. The Law of Moses/God 2. The Law of Liberty
1. First Adam 2. Last Adam (also called the second Adam)
1. Born 2. Born again
1. Israel (Jacob - Nation 2. The Israel from above
1. Jerusalem here in bondage 2. The Jerusalem above is free and the mother of us all (yet barren)
1. First resurrection 2. Second resurrection
1. First death 2. Second death
1.Melchizedek (High Priest of God) 2. Christ (High Priest for ever more , after the order of Melchizedek)

Shall I go on ?

No. But what you could do is make a list of events that have one mention in the bible and then list the reasons why we should suspect that they are wrong. Perhaps you could start with the vision John had of New Jerusalem in Revelation. Tell us why we won’t see the pearly gates or streets made out of gold….I could be wrong but I can’t recall where this description is told anywhere else. Should we not look forward to it then??

Mysteryman said:
And in dealing with Matthew 27:52 & 53 you can not close your eyes to the red flags that are there. Placement is vital to understanding. The placement of these two verses are totally out of proper context. Which shows that whoever put them in our bibles, was not sure where to place them. If they were of the One true God, they would have never been place "at" his death ! They would have been placed at his resurrection.

And you can’t close your eyes to the proof I supplied with scriptures…confirmed more than once. Christ did descend to the lower parts of the earth at His death did He not? According to your own theory, you must believe this because it is “established†more than once. And at the sound of His voice we know that people did come back to life when Christ was performing miracles, did they not? So why is it strange to you that some who heard him preach, while He was among them in the grave, got up and returned to life at the sound of his voice? Why would they delay getting up after hearing Him speak, since all other scriptures that describe similar events clearly show that those who got up from the dead did so while Christ was speaking and still among them? Why would they rise up after He returned to the Father, instead of while in His presence…just like other scriptures establish?

Mysteryman said:
Verse 53 says that "after" his resurrection they came out of the graves and went into the holy city. < Now, which of you know where the holy city is located ? Or maybe I should ask, which holy city ? So now you will have to guess as to which city it is talking about, right ? Another red flag ! Now, if it is talking about Jerusalem. There now needs to be further references pertaining to Jerusalem and this event happening there.

By your own theory, “holy city†does not have to be clarified in this verse since scriptures from the OT verify in multiple passages that the holy city is Jerusalem. Thus, “holy city†has already been established and confirmed per your own requirements.

Mysteryman said:
Also notice verse 53 of Matt. 27 where it states that those who came out of the graves "went into" the holy city. Which would mean that they did not come out of the graves from within Jerusalem, but from somewhwere else, and then went into Jerusalem. So now, we have another red flag. From where , which town or place did these graves open up ? Guess what , you don't have a clue, do you ? So why not stop guessing , and open your eyes to the fact that these two verses were added by men/man ! ?

There are many scriptures…too many to count where we are never given all the details. Seems like per your reasoning, most scriptures are unreliable and need to be thrown out. Why you would want to do that is indeed a mystery.

Blessings,
Dee
 
Mysteryman said:
Quote D4Christ: "What about the others that Christ raised from the dead while He was alive. What about Tabitha, whom the apostles raised from the dead after Christ’s death. We don’t hear about them again either, so should these events be discounted. It also seems you have a problem with the placement of Mat 27…but who are we to question God. Do you think Christ was sleep the way we will sleep when we die? His physical body was dead but we do have evidence that Christ was busy during the three days before His resurrection."

Hi

What eveidence ? Are you going to claim another man made added scripture is you evidence ?

By all means, show us this eveidence .

Love IN Christ - MM

I'm too busy to repeat it again. But if you take another look at my previous posts, you will see that I provided you with scriptures....3 to be exact...that Christ descended to the lower parts, hell or whatever you want to call it, while He was dead. Per your own writings if a scripture can be "established" twice in scriptures then its valid. So, I can only assume you believe these verses since they fit well within your own criteria. Unless you wish to change your mind..... :shrug
 
glorydaz said:
Mysteryman said:
Quote D4Christ: "What about the others that Christ raised from the dead while He was alive. What about Tabitha, whom the apostles raised from the dead after Christ’s death. We don’t hear about them again either, so should these events be discounted. It also seems you have a problem with the placement of Mat 27…but who are we to question God. Do you think Christ was sleep the way we will sleep when we die? His physical body was dead but we do have evidence that Christ was busy during the three days before His resurrection."

Hi

What eveidence ? Are you going to claim another man made added scripture is you evidence ?

By all means, show us this eveidence .

Love IN Christ - MM

The Bible is the Word of God and you're spreading false accusations against it. :shame


Hi

Not only are there whole verses added or taken away, but word changes as well. Now you will not dispute those words that are taken away, because you can not argue that which you can not see on paper. But you will argue that man can not add to the scriptures . One would have to be very naive in believing such a thing, since God did not preserve His Word on paper written with ink.

He did preserve about 90 % , but not 100 %

Maybe I should have titled this thread erroneous word changes as well.

Look up and read Matthew 1:16 , and in the verse it says "husband" of Mary.

Now, if you want accuracy with what you read, and you want to be sure what you read is accurate and correct. And that no man can touch in any way the bible you hold so dear. Just try and come up with 42 generations from Abraham unto Christ ? If you do not cheat in any way, and clearly count righteously, you will only come up with 41 generations and not 42 , if you leave this word rendered as "husband" in this verse.

Now, either the word "husband" is not correct, or where it says there are 42 generations is not correct.

If you look up the greek word for "husband" here, it is the greek word "aner" , which more correctly should have been translated "man" of Mary, not husband of Mary. And, if you understand two things while doing this research, one being, that there must be 42 generations, and two, that a woman can be counted as a "generation". Knowing that a woman can not be counted as a geneology. But this record in Matthew chapter one is a "generations" and not a "geneology". And you tell me after this simple research, if you conclude that this word "aner" , which should be translated "man" meaning her father, instead of her husband, then and only then will you come up with 42 generations and not 41 ! !

When you are finished, and you are honest in your assessment of this chapter and generations, maybe, just maybe you will reconsider if whole chapter could or could not have been added.

I will await your response.

Love IN Christ - MM
 
My response is very simple. What you cannot understand, you dismiss as error.

What I've found in my 40 years of faithfully reading the Word of God is that what I don't understand one day is made clear down the road. What you think has no answer does, indeed, have one. You will choose to dismiss what other godly men have seen....don't say you won't because I've seen you do it already. I can see clearly something you throw away like last week's garbage. I have total faith in the Bible and none in man's "wisdom". Call me whatever you like, but I have seen the truth of the Word win out every time against those who seek to tear it apart. There is nothing new here...tearing down the Word of God and attempting to cause doubt amongst the believers is an old game. One I take very seriously.
 
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