Essential vs Nonessential

[chessman]

those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

Is it good to have believed in Jesus Christ as your Savior?

 

[JLB]

Please explain how John 5:24 and John 10:28 do NOT teach eternal security. From THOSE verses, not all the pet ones you've been abusing.

5:24 teaches WHEN one becomes a recipient (HAS) eternal life. 10:28 teaches that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

If my "opinion" is wrong, then it should be easy to show what they are in fact teaching.

Please proceed.

When you refer to a passage of scripture, and it's context, I will discuss what the actual scripture says, not your opinion.


26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:26-28


The first condition we see to being considered as one of His sheep is believe.

• Condition # 1 - Believe

Those who do not believe are not His sheep.

Those who believe for a while, then do not believe, are those who do not believe.
Believe = Sheep
Do not believe = are not His sheep
Believe means commit, trust obey.

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 3:36 NASB
Those who believe on the Lord, and confess Him as Lord, but don't obey Him as Lord, are not His sheep.

• But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6:46-49

Our Master is the one we obey:

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

• Condition #2 - Hear His voice

My sheep hear My voice.

Jesus said His sheep are those who hear His voice.

Hear means to learn by hearing, understand, to give attention to a teacher or teaching to comprehend; Hearken

Hearken in Hebrew thought means to listen with the intent of obeying.

• But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; Leviticus 26:14 KJV
• But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, Leviticus 26:14 NKJV

We find this to be a essential condition for eternal life, as this same John says:

• if we keep His commandments. Obey Him; Do what He says, Believe Him and hearken to what He says.

The essential and biblical definition of eternal life is to knowing Him.

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

Which brings us to condition # 3

• Condition # 3 - Know Him - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life.

Relationship; Joined in covenant relationship;

In Hebrew thought this word is used of a union between a man and his wife.

Mary said it this way -

• Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?” Luke 1:34

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

The condition or test of knowing Him is: if we obey Him

• Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
• He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

• in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God
• and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Key essential elements of eternal life: Knowing Him and Obeying Him.

• Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

Condition # 4 - Follow

Follow means to join as a disciple the one you are following.

Following is the evidence you believe.


This principle is made clear in John 6, where some disciples left from following Him because they didn't want do what He said, because the didn't understand what He said, and therefore no longer believed in Him


61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:61-69


Key verse's:

• But there are some of you who do not believe.
• From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
  
• Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
  
• You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Following is the evidence of believing.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I believe loving your neighbor is a commandment from the Lord, not an option.

In other words we are required to do it whether we want to or not.

That is why it's called a commandment.

Each of us will give an account on the Day of Judgement.

Of course we will.

Are you willing to admit to the entire forum that you've kept EVERY COMMANDMENT perfectly from your birth?

If not, why not? The reason is because of choice. You chose NOT TO is why you haven't. The same for all of us.

And option means a choice. If there are no options, then there is not choice. Simple as that.

So your entire argument is faulty.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

• He will judge each of us according to our deeds.
• He will render to each of us according to our deeds.

Have you fulfilled these verses perfectly from birth?

If not, how are you going to get into heaven?

 

[FreeGrace]

You can call me all the names you like but it won't change what the scriptures say.

You haven't been around here very long so you probably haven't heard my testimony.

I know exactly what kind of a person I was, when I was saved, born again, Baptized in water and baptized in the Holy Spirit.

It wasn't until I stopped listening to people who are pushing the same things you are promoting and began to to study what Jesus and His Apostles said that I began to change and renew my mind with the truth, and got free from my flesh having it's way in my life to practicing righteousness that comes from the power of His Life within me, not from self.

How can you make this claim when Jesus was extremely clear about eternal security in John 5:24 and John 10:28.

No one has explained that He was teaching something other than eternal security in those 2 verses.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"John 5:24? Jesus was clear about when one HAS eternal life: "whoever believes HAS eternal life"."

Why ignore the John 5:29?

Seriously? The problem is when one ignores 5:24, which teaches us WHEN one becomes a recipient of eternal life. Then couple that with John 10:28 where Jesus was just as clear again; recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost teach directly AGAINST what Jesus said and taught. They beieve that recipients of eternal life CAN perish. Directly in opposition to the Savior they claim to believe in.

This is hypocrisy. Of the worst kind.

 

[JLB]

Is it good to have believed in Jesus Christ as your Savior?

It's is good to obey Jesus, which is what the biblical words believe means.

Commit, trust and obey.

Those who do not obey Jesus will be condemned.

• He who obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:36 NASB

• Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. 1 John 2:3-6

• 19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

The wrath of God is for the disobedient, do not be a partaker of God's wrath with them.

• the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:3-7



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I will say this, which cannot be refuted:
1. Jesus taught in John 5:24 that WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life. That is WHEN they become recipients of eternal life.
2. Jesus taught in John 10:28 that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

These 2 verses PROVE eternal security. So there is NOTHING that anyone can show from Scripture that teaches that one can lose salvation. That isn't even possible. The Bible is NOT contradictory."

No scripture here!

Unbelievable!! But you've just demonstrated that you do not read my posts. So why bother responding to them with such ignorance??

I specifically cited 2 verses and gave a summary statement about each one.

But since that seems to be considered "no scripture" I guess I'll just have to conclude that you've written those 2 verses out of your Bible.

Which makes a LOT OF SENSE, given your views on losing salvation. There is NO WAY one can accept those 2 specific verses and accept the false doctrine of loss of salvation.

 

[JLB]

I asked this:
"John 5:24? Jesus was clear about when one HAS eternal life: "whoever believes HAS eternal life"."

Seriously? The problem is when one ignores 5:24, which teaches us WHEN one becomes a recipient of eternal life. Then couple that with John 10:28 where Jesus was just as clear again; recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost teach directly AGAINST what Jesus said and taught. They beieve that recipients of eternal life CAN perish. Directly in opposition to the Savior they claim to believe in.

This is hypocrisy. Of the worst kind.

Call me all the names you like, it won't change what the scriptures say.

When you refer to a passage of scripture, and it's context, I will discuss what the actual scripture says, not your opinion.


26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:26-28


The first condition we see to being considered as one of His sheep is believe.

• Condition # 1 - Believe

Those who do not believe are not His sheep.

Those who believe for a while, then do not believe, are those who do not believe.
Believe = Sheep
Do not believe = are not His sheep
Believe means commit, trust obey.

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 3:36 NASB
Those who believe on the Lord, and confess Him as Lord, but don't obey Him as Lord, are not His sheep.

• But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6:46-49

Our Master is the one we obey:

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

• Condition #2 - Hear His voice

My sheep hear My voice.

Jesus said His sheep are those who hear His voice.

Hear means to learn by hearing, understand, to give attention to a teacher or teaching to comprehend; Hearken

Hearken in Hebrew thought means to listen with the intent of obeying.

• But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; Leviticus 26:14 KJV
• But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, Leviticus 26:14 NKJV

We find this to be a essential condition for eternal life, as this same John says:

• if we keep His commandments. Obey Him; Do what He says, Believe Him and hearken to what He says.

The essential and biblical definition of eternal life is to knowing Him.

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

Which brings us to condition # 3

• Condition # 3 - Know Him - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life.

Relationship; Joined in covenant relationship;

In Hebrew thought this word is used of a union between a man and his wife.

Mary said it this way -

• Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?” Luke 1:34

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

The condition or test of knowing Him is: if we obey Him

• Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
• He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

• in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God
• and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Key essential elements of eternal life: Knowing Him and Obeying Him.

• Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

Condition # 4 - Follow

Follow means to join as a disciple the one you are following.

Following is the evidence you believe.


This principle is made clear in John 6, where some disciples left from following Him because they didn't want do what He said, because the didn't understand what He said, and therefore no longer believed in Him


61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:61-69


Key verse's:

• But there are some of you who do not believe.
• From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
  
• Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
  
• You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Following is the evidence of believing.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

When you refer to a passage of scripture, and it's context, I will discuss what the actual scripture says, not your opinion.

Well, let's just see how true this claim is.

Discuss what Jesus was teaching in John 5:24 and John 10:28. And in your discussion, please include an explanation of what Jesus was teaching other than WHEN one becomes a recipient of eternal life and that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

I can't wait.

 

[FreeGrace]

Call me all the names you like, it won't change what the scriptures say.

When you refer to a passage of scripture, and it's context, I will discuss what the actual scripture says, not your opinion.

Then discuss WHEN one becomes a recipient of eternal life, per John 5:24, and the outcome of recipients of eternal life in Johbn 10:28.

I won't hold my breath while waiting.

 

[JLB]

1. Jesus taught in John 5:24 that WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life. That is WHEN they become recipients of eternal life.

Please quote the actual words of scripture, so we can discuss scripture and it's context.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

• he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life

Hear means hearken, listen with the intent of doing what is heard, and believe means trust, commit and obey.

Once you study this, you will see that John 5:24 says the same thing as John 5:28-29.


But since you only want to talk about a "part" of one sentence and not the whole context, I suppose you may never learn the truth.

The context:

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29

• The condition: those who have done good
• The result: to the resurrection of life

 

[JLB]

Well, let's just see how true this claim is.

Discuss what Jesus was teaching in John 5:24 and John 10:28. And in your discussion, please include an explanation of what Jesus was teaching other than WHEN one becomes a recipient of eternal life and that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

I can't wait.

Quote the actual scripture, and I will discuss what the scripture says.



JLB

 

[JLB]

To anyone who want's to discuss what Jesus said about the conditions for being His sheep and receiving eternal life.


26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:26-28


The first condition we see to being considered as one of His sheep is believe.

• Condition # 1 - Believe

Those who do not believe are not His sheep.

Those who believe for a while, then do not believe, are those who do not believe.
Believe = Sheep
Do not believe = are not His sheep
Believe means commit, trust obey.

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 3:36 NASB
Those who believe on the Lord, and confess Him as Lord, but don't obey Him as Lord, are not His sheep.

• But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6:46-49

Our Master is the one we obey:

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

• Condition #2 - Hear His voice

My sheep hear My voice.

Jesus said His sheep are those who hear His voice.

Hear means to learn by hearing, understand, to give attention to a teacher or teaching to comprehend; Hearken

Hearken in Hebrew thought means to listen with the intent of obeying.

• But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; Leviticus 26:14 KJV
• But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, Leviticus 26:14 NKJV

We find this to be a essential condition for eternal life, as this same John says:

• if we keep His commandments. Obey Him; Do what He says, Believe Him and hearken to what He says.

The essential and biblical definition of eternal life is to knowing Him.

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

Which brings us to condition # 3

• Condition # 3 - Know Him - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life.

Relationship; Joined in covenant relationship;

In Hebrew thought this word is used of a union between a man and his wife.

Mary said it this way -

• Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?” Luke 1:34

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

The condition or test of knowing Him is: if we obey Him

• Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
• He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

• in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God
• and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Key essential elements of eternal life: Knowing Him and Obeying Him.

• Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

Condition # 4 - Follow

Follow means to join as a disciple the one you are following.

Following is the evidence you believe.


This principle is made clear in John 6, where some disciples left from following Him because they didn't want do what He said, because the didn't understand what He said, and therefore no longer believed in Him


61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:61-69


Key verse's:

• But there are some of you who do not believe.
• From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
  
• Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
  
• You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Following is the evidence of believing.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life.



JLB

 

[chessman]

I asked you

Is it good to have believed in Jesus Christ as your Savior?

You didn't answer my question.

Here's the Scripture and my question relative to your understanding of it, once again.

John 5:29 and they [all those in the graves, v28] will come out—those who have done good things to a resurrection of life, but those who have practiced evil things to a resurrection of judgment.​

Is it good to have believed (obeyed) in Jesus Christ as your Savior?
[This is a simple, reasonable, yes/no question relative to your theological position.]

It's is good to obey Jesus, which is what the biblical words believe means.

Yes, I am aware that it is good to have obeyed Jesus.

In any debate if you refuse to or can not answer a reasonable question(s), it weakens your position.

 

[WIP]

The best answer comes from Heb 12:11. It won't be pleasant but painful. I know that's not satisfying to some, because everyone undergoes suffering of some sort in life. And Job suffered greatly which wasn't discipline. But the Bible is clear about the fact of God's discipline toward disobedient children.

Paul did list what looks like a progression to me in 1 Cor 11:30; weakness, sickness and physical death.


When God decides. The Bible doesn't speak of any kind of timeline.

Just a note: it is not anyone's prerogative to determine whether anyone else is being disciplined.

In this life, how does God's discipline differ from the trials, tribulations, suffering, etc. that one must endure for the sake of Christ? It does seem that those who are the most expressive Christians will suffer the most. Satan as well as the rest of humanity raises the ante when one begins to share the gospel. Consider Paul's life and what he endured. How is that any better than discipline from God?

Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I. Are they ministers of Christ?—I speak as a fool—I am more: in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often. From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness— besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches. 2 Corinthians 11:22-28 NKJV

 

[billybalke]

Why ignore John 5:24? Jesus was clear about when one HAS eternal life: "whoever believes HAS eternal life".

Why should anyone disregard this clear verse.

My point that you've not addressed is where does the Bible tell us that eternal life is given any particular time AFTER initially believing?

Without such a verse, we HAVE TO look to john 5:24 as to WHEN one becomes a recipient of eternal life: WHEN they believe.

Not 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year, 1 decade after they believe. WHEN they believe.

The reason I ask for a one-on-one is because I do not have time to sit at the computer at long lengths. At 86 I am still active and usually I do not read(as many do not) l o n g posts. On the regular thread numerous posts cover up the last post one has made. On the one on one we can state our position, be absent from the screen for as long as one wishes and return as time allows without interruption of intervening posts of others. In addition any who are interested can read all we both write.

Now, for Jn.5:24. I am not ignoring it. My point is (and none have addressed it) that your side of the aisle has added a word to the verse which no version does. THE WORD "MOMENT" is NOT there, you have added it. The discussion should be at what point in one's BELIEF is one saved. This also includes the question as to whether one can lose the promise of eternal life in this life or not.

My challenge is to you or any on your side of the aisle, it makes no difference.
God bless

 

[FreeGrace]

Please quote the actual words of scripture, so we can discuss scripture and it's context.

Go ahead.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

• he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life

Hear means hearken, listen with the intent of doing what is heard, and believe means trust, commit and obey.

OK.

Now, what does "has" mean? And, according to Jesus, when does one HAVE eternal life?

Once you study this, you will see that John 5:24 says the same thing as John 5:28-29.

Well, there you go.

Now, please answer my 2 simple questions from John 5:24.
1. What does "has" mean?
2. When does one HAVE eternal life?

[QUTOE]But since you only want to talk about a "part" of one sentence and not the whole context, I suppose you may never learn the truth.[/QUOTE]
It seems my questions won't be answered any time soon. So bringing up this non-issue is how the questions will be ignored.

But I think most of us know why my questions will not be answered.

They will expose the false doctrine of conditional security.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Well, let's just see how true this claim is.

Discuss what Jesus was teaching in John 5:24 and John 10:28. And in your discussion, please include an explanation of what Jesus was teaching other than WHEN one becomes a recipient of eternal life and that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

I can't wait."

Quote the actual scripture, and I will discuss what the scripture says.

Yep, just another stall tactic.

But, go ahead and explain all that Jesus was teaching in John 5:24 and John 10:28.

Even though I suspect you've removed them from your Bible, I'm sure they can be found on a number of websites.

 

[FreeGrace]

To anyone who want's to discuss what Jesus said about the conditions for being His sheep and receiving eternal life.

That hasn't been the discussion on this thread, for those who have been following (paying attention).

The issue is the outcome for recipients of eternal life from John 10:28; not how to receive eternal life.

That's the sole issue you've been dodging all this time.

 

[FreeGrace]

In this life, how does God's discipline differ from the trials, tribulations, suffering, etc. that one must endure for the sake of Christ? It does seem that those who are the most expressive Christians will suffer the most. Satan as well as the rest of humanity raises the ante when one begins to share the gospel. Consider Paul's life and what he endured. How is that any better than discipline from God?

Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I. Are they ministers of Christ?—I speak as a fool—I am more: in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often. From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness— besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches. 2 Corinthians 11:22-28 NKJV

With all respect, it seems to me from your questions that you've not actually accepted the principle that God does discipline His children.

My last post regarding this issue explained from Scripture what can be known about the reality of God's discipline.

We cannot know when God is disciplining believers. Or how. Because the Bible doesn't give us that information.

I have explained that there is suffering for discipline and suffering for blessing. That's all I can do.

Do you believe that God disciplines His disobedient children, or just casts them into hell?