Jim Parker
Member
The fact that someone has something NOW does not guarantee that he will still have it tomorrow.
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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Essential vs Nonessential
- Thread starter netchaplain
- Start date
Jim Parker
Member
Why proceed down a road to nowhere?
billybalke
Member
Would you care to discuss this on the one-on-one?
Gregg T
Member
Can you understand why this statement contradicts itself in two ways?
Gregg T
Member
No, but thanks.
billybalke
Member
Yes it is "down a road to nowhere" for "nowhere" does the scripture say "the moment one believes". They see the "road to nowhere" gets them "nowhere". Jesus said "search the scriptures", Jn.5:39. The Bereans were "more noble" because they "searched the scriptures", Acts 17:11. False doctrines thrive when men add to the scripture that which it does not read.
You can't deny what you wrote and this was the second time I had asked you that question and both times you gave me similar answers. Just because you didn't say the exact same words you asked this time, the meaning is clearly the same.
Why do people insist on only wording that they want to read, before they'll believe something??
When Jesus said "whoever believes HAS eternal life", it is simply OBVIOUS that they have it the moment they believe.
Unless there is specific Scripture that tells us that eternal life is given at some other time after the moment one believes, there is no reason to make such an assumption.
That's why I've been asking the question. It puts the issue of eternal security is CLEAR FOCUS.
The verse has been shared. John 5:24 says "whoever believes HAS eternal life". Why would that NOT include the moment one believes?
Can it be shown that one can possess eternal life yet not yet be saved?? That would be your only defense.
What seem clear is that you're simply not looking. It's right in front of your eyes.
The one believing has eternal life. Jn 6:47
Now, again, unless there are any verses that indicate that salvation/eternal life comes at some specific point after the moment of faith in Christ, you've got no point. Or defense.
I cannot guide how others take what I write. But I've been very clear about what I believe. Anyone who think they can "get away" with living for themselves will be in for a major shock. God doesn't let anyone get away with anything.
The Bible calls it discipline. I call it divine discipline, because it is God who administers it. And Heb 12:11 says it isn't pleasant, but painful.
For some reason, those who think salvation can be lost don't consider the warnings to disobedient or unfaithful believers as discipline.
They just continue to view eternal security as a "pass" to do whatever the old sin nature wants to do. Which isn't true.
What's true is that a believer can act like an unbeliever. Because we still have the sin nature within us. But be forewarned; there will be discipline for the unruly. So, no one gets a "pass", or "gets away" with anything.
gr8grace3 said: ↑
John 6:47 (NASB95) 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
John 3:36 (NASB95)
36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
2 Cor 6:2~New International Version
In fact, Paul taught that eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23. And in Rom 11:29 he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable.
And Jesus said those He gives eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH in Jn 10:28.
So, how in the world could eternal life be removed, given these clear verses? Impossible.
John 6:47 (NASB95) 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
John 3:36 (NASB95)
36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
2 Cor 6:2~New International Version
Then what text informs us that eternal life can be taken away? There are none.
In fact, Paul taught that eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23. And in Rom 11:29 he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable.
And Jesus said those He gives eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH in Jn 10:28.
So, how in the world could eternal life be removed, given these clear verses? Impossible.
Stating your opinion and tagging it with a reference doesn't change what the scripture actually says.
This is especially true when your reference to a passage only includes a part of what Jesus said about the subject.
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:26-28
The first condition we see to being considered as one of His sheep is believe.
- Condition # 1 - Believe
Those who do not believe are not His sheep.
Those who believe for a while, then do not believe, are those who do not believe.
Believe = Sheep
Do not believe = are not His sheep
Believe means commit, trust obey.
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 3:36 NASB
Those who believe on the Lord, and confess Him as Lord, but don't obey Him as Lord, are not His sheep.
- But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?
46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6:46-49
Our Master is the one we obey:
16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16
- Condition #2 - Hear His voice
My sheep hear My voice.
Jesus said His sheep are those who hear His voice.
Hear means to learn by hearing, understand, to give attention to a teacher or teaching to comprehend; Hearken
Hearken in Hebrew thought means to listen with the intent of obeying.
- But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; Leviticus 26:14 KJV
- But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, Leviticus 26:14 NKJV
We find this to be a essential condition for eternal life, as this same John says:
- if we keep His commandments. Obey Him; Do what He says, Believe Him and hearken to what He says.
The essential and biblical definition of eternal life is to knowing Him.
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4
Which brings us to condition # 3
- Condition # 3 - Know Him - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life.
Relationship; Joined in covenant relationship;
In Hebrew thought this word is used of a union between a man and his wife.
Mary said it this way -
- Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?” Luke 1:34
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4
The condition or test of knowing Him is: if we obey Him
- Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
- He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar.
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
- in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God
- and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Key essential elements of eternal life: Knowing Him and Obeying Him.
- Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
Condition # 4 - Follow
Follow means to join as a disciple the one you are following.
Following is the evidence you believe.
This principle is made clear in John 6, where some disciples left from following Him because they didn't want do what He said, because the didn't understand what He said, and therefore no longer believed in Him
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:61-69
Key verse's:
- But there are some of you who do not believe.
- From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
- Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
- You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Following is the evidence of believing.
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life.
JLB
Please refer to the post number where you answered this question.
Are you teaching this forum that Christians have the option whether to forgive or harbor unforgiveness and whether to love or hate, and still inherit eternal life?
- Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:14-15
JLB
I said this:
" Jesus very clearly taught eternal security in John 10:28 and no one has shown any other meaning of that verse.
The issue of eternal security is clear; those given eternal life shall never perish. Jn 10:28"
In fact, why hasn't my question about recipients of eternal life ever perishing been answered?
Jesus said: "I give them (that would be recipients) eternal life, and they (that would be recipients of eternal life) shall NEVER PERISH.
Why? Because that would be tantamount to admitting that they directly disagreed with Jesus' words in John 10:28.
But they still do disagree with Him. By believing that recipients of eterna life CAN perish. Even though He said "shall never perish".
So, there is no reason to believe that any recipient of eternal life CAN perish.
The words "can" and "shall never" are opposites. I will continue to believe what Jesus taught. That recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
"Never" means never. It never means "can".
" Jesus very clearly taught eternal security in John 10:28 and no one has shown any other meaning of that verse.
The issue of eternal security is clear; those given eternal life shall never perish. Jn 10:28"
Where have you proven otherwise?
In fact, why hasn't my question about recipients of eternal life ever perishing been answered?
Jesus said: "I give them (that would be recipients) eternal life, and they (that would be recipients of eternal life) shall NEVER PERISH.
But no one is willing to answer my question about recipients of eternal life perishing.
Why? Because that would be tantamount to admitting that they directly disagreed with Jesus' words in John 10:28.
But they still do disagree with Him. By believing that recipients of eterna life CAN perish. Even though He said "shall never perish".
There is nothing in the rest of this long post that changes the exact words that Jesus said about recipients of eternal life; they SHALL NEVER PERISH.
So, there is no reason to believe that any recipient of eternal life CAN perish.
The words "can" and "shall never" are opposites. I will continue to believe what Jesus taught. That recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
"Never" means never. It never means "can".
So I will ask again, two questions.
1. What does that discipline look like?
2. When is it applied?
billybalke
Member
I do have a point if one says one has eternal life "the moment one believes" and they cannot find such in the scripture. Perhaps you can find it. No one else has. Until one produces such a scripture or concedes there is none, my point is substantiated.
New American Standard Bible
who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
728 arrhabṓn – properly, an installment; a deposit ("down-payment") which guarantees the balance (the full purchase-price).
Do you consider yourself one of His sheep right NOW?
This is what He says about His sheep.
New American Standard Bible
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
So please enlighten us.
Eph 1:13 Also says the moment we believe we are saved.
New American Standard Bible
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,