Eternal damnation

[LovethroughDove]

So if this parable is taken literally, it still doesn't show the fate of the wicked after the last judgment. The scene in the parable doesn't take place after the last judgment, since the brothers are still alive.

It is literal. Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

When the rich man wanted Lazarus to warn his brothers about this place, Abraham said it wouldn't even matter because they wouldn't believe him anyways. Why would it matter if they were just going to "die" and not exist? They probably thought that anyway?

 

[TimothyW]

It is literal. Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

When the rich man wanted Lazarus to warn his brothers about this place, Abraham said it wouldn't even matter because they wouldn't believe him anyways. Why would it matter if they were just going to "die" and not exist? They probably thought that anyway?

Matthew 25:46 says eternal punishment, not eternal torment. I agree with Jesus Christ that there is to be eternal punishment. And I agree with Jesus Christ that this punishment is destruction, as He said in Matthew 7:13, Matthew 10:28, and Luke 13:3.

You ask "why would it matter if they were just going to die?" Don't you believe that eternal life is MUCH better than death? Wouldn't you warn your son or daughter if they were "just going to die"? And Jesus in fact DID warn us of that. He said "fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell" and He said "the road is wide that leads to destruction". Why would He warn us of destruction if we weren't actually in danger of destruction? If nobody was actually going to be destroyed?

Are you just arguing with me because you don't want to give up your position? What about what the Bible says? What about what Jesus says?

 

[TimothyW]

I'm going to bed. Read the gospels and believe what they say.

 

[Kathi]

You are in denial Tim.

 

[poetofparables]

please know this is not aimed at anyone,
our souls are like grapes sweet and juicy full of flavor and good for kicken back and wine, Other souls are like thistles or poison ivy only good for minor irritation hahaha. I love your child-like wondering Poet, its good. But remember what Paul says about "hell"? It is being disconnected from YHWH, so literally not being a part of life but a part of death. Those who are dead now are already a part of death, We who LIVE shall never die, There is no life but Yeshua, but what does that mean? Poet Im starting to get you I think, there are all these people scripturing at you saying this or that but not answering your hearts questions when darnet just a little TRUTH FROM THE HEART ay? So whether or no you call you self "Christian" DOES NOT MATTER AT ALL IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM AND WONT GET YOU INTO HEAVEN. I can call my self a Hippopataflow matrafilisine but what does that mean??? in the same way Most people HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT MEANS O BE "Christian" IT MEANS.... THE SPIRIT OF YHWH DWELLS WITHIN YOU MAKEING YOU HOLY (set apart for YAH) TO DO HIS WORK AND HIS WILL WHICH IS LOVE. "SCRIPTUAL DOCTRINE" MEANS NOTHING. If you could SEE in TRUTH you would all know that there is NO NEED for anything BUT YHWH's Almighty LOVE!!!! not some book a roemin emperor made, kay? not saying Holy Scripture (set apart for God) isn't good and awesome and the BASIC INSTRUCTIONS BEFORE LEAVING EATH arnt good but what about actually BEING SOMETHING HOLY? If you where truly Sons and Daughters of YHWH then we would long to IMATATE him not SPEW nonsense we actually don't understand. IF YOU ACTUALLY UNDERSTOOD WHAT SCRIPTURE WAS SAYNIG YOU WOULD DO. Faith without action IS DEAD. if you have faith then go LOVE somebody somewhere. INFACT HERE IS A CHALLANGE TO ANYONE.

Go out right NOW (if day) and bring some nice worm sup to the next homless people you see, you don't need to peach the word because YHWH is already in action. THIS IS A SPIRITUAL ministry not a "HEY YOU FAGS! GOD HATES YOU AND YOUR GOING TO HELL" infact if you KNOW WHAT SCRIPURE SAYS even having those words in your heart or as a belief IS JUST WRONG AND IS CONDEMING JUDGEMNET! Repent for any and all judgments aganst your fellows for it is the sin WITHEN the man that your spirit dislikes. I have gone through scripture and scripture noticing the difference in parts of PAULS letters and THE WORD OF YHWH YESHUA and although I LOVE PAUL we must be aware of his own progestin in Christ and His own faults as He does in his letters, Where does Yeshua say "follow Pauls teachings and not mine?" Again I LOVE PAUL AND YESHUA BUT be aware about being to entangled with "new Law" when we have just been freed from the power Law gave Sin. so don't give sin its power by condemning anyone or even worring about who or why, if or ifnot, because MOSES ACCUSES YOU and YHWH judges you, so be at peace and do what is good, DECERN.

You really got something there, je'di.

 

[poetofparables]

That was neat.

lol, its just me.

 

[poetofparables]

You will know it when you reach there.

K.

 

[Eugene]

Where does Yeshua say "follow Pauls teachings and not mine?"

Paul’s words are the very teaching of Christ, and yes I do use scripture.

Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him (Ananias), Go thy way: for he (Paul) is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. We are not going to follow Christ in dying for the world, but we can follow Him as Paul did.

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Didn’t all the prophets have Jesus’ words for this present age? No!

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[TimothyW]

You are in denial Tim.

I'm sorry Kathi, but nobody has shown me any scripture to be in denial of!

If you know of any verse in the Bible where Jesus said that anyone will experience eternal conscious torment, show me where it is and I will accept it.
If you know of any verse in the Bible that says people will go to hell where they will experience eternal conscious torment, show me where it is and I will accept it.
I've shown you and your pal TOB where Jesus said that the lost would be destroyed, but you deny His words.

I've asked you guys to be nice when you disagree, but instead you falsely claim that I am in denial. Show me the verse! Don't make empty claims that I am in denial about verses that you refuse to show me, verses that do not exist. If ANY verse existed where Jesus said that there will be eternal conscious torment in hell you would have shown the verse already and I would look foolish. But you didn't, because you can't. There is no such verse. Don't you understand this?

 

[poetofparables]

I'm sorry Kathi, but nobody has shown me any scripture to be in denial of!

If you know of any verse in the Bible where Jesus said that anyone will experience eternal conscious torment, show me where it is and I will accept it.
If you know of any verse in the Bible that says people will go to hell where they will experience eternal conscious torment, show me where it is and I will accept it.
I've shown you and your pal TOB where Jesus said that the lost would be destroyed, but you deny His words.

I've asked you guys to be nice when you disagree, but instead you falsely claim that I am in denial. Show me the verse! Don't make empty claims that I am in denial about verses that you refuse to show me, verses that do not exist. If ANY verse existed where Jesus said that there will be eternal conscious torment in hell you would have shown the verse already and I would look foolish. But you didn't, because you can't. There is no such verse. Don't you understand this?

Read revelation chapter 14 and tell me what you think. (note verse 10 and 11)

 

[TimothyW]

Read revelation chapter 14 and tell me what you think. (note verse 10 and 11)

Okay, but then I have a request to also make of you. I will read your verse and tell you what I think and then you will read MY verse and tell me what you think.
Deal?

Here is Revelation 14:10-11
he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Here is what I think. This doesn't say that the torment lasts forever. This says that the smoke rises forever. This language comes straight out of Isaiah, (Isaiah 34:10) where the smoke of Edom rises forever. This is the smoke from Edom's destruction. So this verse not only doesn't show that there will be eternal conscious torment, it proves that the beast worshipers will be destroyed.

Now you have to comment on MY verse.
Read John 3:16 and tell me what it says about the fate of those who refuse to believe in the Son of God. They will _________.

 

[poetofparables]

Okay, but then I have a request to also make of you. I will read your verse and tell you what I think and then you will read MY verse and tell me what you think.
Deal?

Here is Revelation 14:10-11
he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Here is what I think. This doesn't say that the torment lasts forever. This says that the smoke rises forever. This language comes straight out of Isaiah, (Isaiah 34:10) where the smoke of Edom rises forever. This is the smoke from Edom's destruction. So this verse not only doesn't show that there will be eternal conscious torment, it proves that the beast worshipers will be destroyed.

Now you have to comment on MY verse.
Read John 3:16 and tell me what it says about the fate of those who refuse to believe in the Son of God. They will _________.

I like you're explanation of the smoke rising up forever and ever, as an everlasting destruction as John 3:16 says. But its easy to read into many verses like that when they are very vague.

 

[Willie T]

I like you're explanation of the smoke rising up forever and ever, as an everlasting destruction as John 3:16 says. But its easy to read into many verses like that when they are very vague.

You just summed up what most people do with Revelation.

 

[FreeGrace]

I still wonder about that. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. I don't know why people prefer to believe that the wages of sin is eternal torment.

Because the "death" here in Rom 3:23 refers to eternal death, which is eternal separation from God. Rom 3:23 is not about physical death. It does include physical death, but the point is eternal separation from God.

 

[FreeGrace]

Show the verse where Jesus says the wicked will go to hell where they will experience eternal conscious torment.

Do you not accept all of God's Word, or just what has been quoted from Jesus?

Rev 20:10 - And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. NASB

I find this verse to be unambiguous about how long one exists in a conscious state in the lake of fire. Or is "forever and ever" not that clear?

 

[poetofparables]

Do you not accept all of God's Word, or just what has been quoted from Jesus?

Rev 20:10 - And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. NASB

I find this verse to be unambiguous about how long one exists in a conscious state in the lake of fire. Or is "forever and ever" not that clear?

He doesnt want to see that view free, because the alternative is unthinkable to him.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Two points for those who would quote these types of verses:

1. The rich man and Lazarus was a parable. Jesus spoke in parables just so that not everyone would be saved -- at least not until their time. This was a way to filter out those with insight from those who did not. Even his disciples had difficulty understanding them, those whom he called. Yet.... in speaking them he did his duty telling the truth. To take a parable and establish an unbiblical doctrine is the very thing Jesus wanted them to do so that they'd stay blinded, i.e. his quote about not seeing or hearing.

2. People have trouble with the word "eternal". In the Greek it describes the action, not the continuous state of the so-called modified noun. For example, when people read "eternal fire", they think right away that the eternal is referring to the fire, and hence never goes out (so the reasoning goes that people must likewise never get burned up with it). What the word eternal is modifying is the action of the fire -- no coming back, no resurrection. Today, we would say "burned up forever".

I already used biblical language to describe the fate of a book I hated. Where did the book go? I said I burned it with eternal fire. The fire is not burning today, but rather it burned up the book forever. It now ceases to exist. It had eternal destruction and eternal damnation. No coming back.

And a point not relating directly to the bible: ECT is a pagan concept from Grecian and earlier societies just as heaven is (heaven is the abode of God, but it's coming to earth in the Kingdom). So I don't believe we go there when we die, either. Rather, we are resurrected to the Kingdom, here on earth-- the special called out ones called the church to rule and reign, or the rest of the people to be saved later. But heaven, hell, immortal souls and whatnot are the things made of pagan ideas and corruption of God's Word akin to scaring the kiddies with Krampus stories at Xmas time. No wonder atheists bash "Christianity". And the sad thing is, they are right in this case. No, there's no scary monsters under one's bed. But.... after given every chance, the Lord will destroy the truly wicked in a lake of fire and then renovate everything to be a new heaven and earth. That's the most righteous thing to do, i.e. to destroy all evil for the new heavens and earth.

TWO points to remember:

1. The sinner will permanently die, for the wages of sin is death.
2. The fire is how he's going to do it, and is not synonymous with the eternal state of death, rather the vehicle to bring one to that state, as opposed to torture, disease, devils pulling out one's fingernails or whatever Dante could imagine.

 

[poetofparables]

Two points for those who would quote these types of verses:

1. The rich man and Lazarus was a parable. Jesus spoke in parables just so that not everyone would be saved -- at least not until their time. This was a way to filter out those with insight from those who did not. Even his disciples had difficulty understanding them, those whom he called. Yet.... in speaking them he did his duty telling the truth. To take a parable and establish an unbiblical doctrine is the very thing Jesus wanted them to do so that they'd stay blinded, i.e. his quote about not seeing or hearing.

2. People have trouble with the word "eternal". In the Greek it describes the action, not the continuous state of the so-called modified noun. For example, when people read "eternal fire", they think right away that the eternal is referring to the fire, and hence never goes out (so the reasoning goes that people must likewise never get burned up with it). What the word eternal is modifying is the action of the fire -- no coming back, no resurrection. Today, we would say "burned up forever".

I already used biblical language to describe the fate of a book I hated. Where did the book go? I said I burned it with eternal fire. The fire is not burning today, but rather it burned up the book forever. It now ceases to exist. It had eternal destruction and eternal damnation. No coming back.

And a point not relating directly to the bible: ECT is a pagan concept from Grecian and earlier societies just as heaven is (heaven is the abode of God, but it's coming to earth in the Kingdom). So I don't believe we go there when we die, either. Rather, we are resurrected to the Kingdom, here on earth-- the special called out ones called the church to rule and reign, or the rest of the people to be saved later. But heaven, hell, immortal souls and whatnot are the things made of pagan ideas and corruption of God's Word akin to scaring the kiddies with Krampus stories at Xmas time. No wonder atheists bash "Christianity". And the sad thing is, they are right in this case. No, there's no scary monsters under one's bed. But.... after given every chance, the Lord will destroy the truly wicked in a lake of fire and then renovate everything to be a new heaven and earth. That's the most righteous thing to do, i.e. to destroy all evil for the new heavens and earth.

TWO points to remember:

1. The sinner will permanently die, for the wages of sin is death.
2. The fire is how he's going to do it, and is not synonymous with the eternal state of death, rather the vehicle to bring one to that state, as opposed to torture, disease, devils pulling out one's fingernails or whatever Dante could imagine.

I would agree with you if the bible didnt say "tormented" forever. You have to remain alive to be tormented. What do you think?

 

[tim-from-pa]

I would agree with you if the bible didnt say "tormented" forever. You have to remain alive to be tormented. What do you think?

Where in that parable is he tormented forever?

 

[poetofparables]

Where in that parable is he tormented forever?

I wasn't referring to that verse, but the others that talk about hell.