Then that would be his problem. Rev 20:10 is the Biblical view. All other views are unbiblical.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Let's consider all of God's Word. Not just snippets from it. btw, the story of Lazarus wasn't a parable, because Jesus named names. Parables don't do that. And He didn't say that the story was a parable. And He specifically mentioned Abraham, who spoke to the rich man. He was giving mankind a glimpse of life after death before His own death and resurrection. It is clear that the rich man was conscious and in torment.
Couple that story with Rev 20:10 and it is unambiguous that those in the Lake of Fire will be tormented forever and ever.
No question.
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poetofparables
Guest
How does the bible have a view? It only means what ever the interpreter reads into it.
TimothyW
Member
It is very clear, Who does it say is tormented? The devil, the ten headed beast, and the false prophet. Not EVERYONE, not all sinners. Jesus said that they will be destroyed. Do you not accept all of God's Word?
If you look at all of God's word, it is clear that throughout scripture the fate of those that reject God is said to be destruction, perishing, being no more, and so on.
No, I believe what is written in the Bible and I reject what is NOT written in the Bible. The other side has not proven their case that God will torture the lost forever in hell when they die.poetof parables said:
DO NOT ascribe false motives to me. If the Bible said that the lost will go to hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever, and if the Bible didn't say that the wicked will be destroyed, then I would agree with their unbiblical view. Understand?
Okay, this thread is taking another trip down the eternal conscious torment vs. annihilation path and like about the previous six threads on the same topic, it will probably go downhill into the abyss rather quickly and get a shiny lock applied with warning point for rude behavior as I have already recognized enough in this thread. I will repeat the question from the opening post and ask that we get back on topic.
The question is, "Why is eternal suffering necessary." The question is not about debating total annihilation and eternal conscious torment.
The question is, "Why is eternal suffering necessary." The question is not about debating total annihilation and eternal conscious torment.
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poetofparables
Guest
I hope you're wrong.
TimothyW
Member
I asked you to comment on John 3:16.
I commented on the verse you wanted me to comment on. The deal was then you would also respond to John 3:16. You didn't do it.
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poetofparables
Guest
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poetofparables
Guest
I agree with you Tim, and I agree with the opposite opinion.
TimothyW
Member
I want to have a decent discussion. I don't want to be rude to anyone or have anyone be rude to me. I asked from my first post in this thread that the other side would be respectful of opposing POVs.
If this thread is closed, it is because those who hold the view that the lost are tormented forever in hell cannot act decently to anyone who holds an opposing POV.
If this thread is closed, it is because those who hold the view that the lost are tormented forever in hell cannot act decently to anyone who holds an opposing POV.
tim-from-pa
Member
There are no other verses that say that man will be tormented forever in hell. Both Tim and I adequately covered those points.
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poetofparables
Guest
I think yes, back on topic.
tim-from-pa
Member
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poetofparables
Guest
Yes there are, there's both. Don't you get why you're all fighting about it. It's because the bible says both, vaguely and conspicuously.
Aren't the beast and the false prophet both human?
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
I like poetofparables response in post #98: "I would agree with you if the bible didnt say "tormented" forever. You have to remain alive to be tormented. What do you think?"
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41-46
The everlasting punishment is being cast into the everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.
The key phrase here is ... into the everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.
The scripture is specific in Revelation, in describing the fate of the Devil.
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10
They represents those who were cast into the lake of fire... the beast, the false prophet, the devil.
Jesus said to those whom He sentenced to be cast into the everlasting fire for everlasting punishment, was the same fire as the devil and his angels.
The devil is cast into the lake of fire, and will be tormented day and night forever, along with the beast and the false prophet.
The destroying process for these will last forever, as the punishment is everlasting, and the fire which brings about the eternal destruction is also everlasting.
'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
JLB
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poetofparables
Guest
Let me add this verse to the mix.
Mark 9:49New International Version (NIV)
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.
Can someone get that verse in context, because I'm having trouble at bible gateway while on my phone.
Mark 9:49New International Version (NIV)
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.
Can someone get that verse in context, because I'm having trouble at bible gateway while on my phone.
TimothyW
Member
According to Jesus Christ, as recorded in Matthew 7:13 and in Matthew 10:28 they will be destroyed.
According to John 3:16, they will perish. According to Jesus as recorded in Luke 13:3, unless a man repents, he will perish.
According to the Bible, as recorded in Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death.
Now. Why should I believe that the wages of sin is NOT death, but eternal conscious torment instead of death?
Why shouldn't I believe what Jesus says instead of what you say?
And I'm not even asking you to believe that the wicked will be destroyed as the Bible says.
I'm only asking that the ultimate destruction of the wicked be considered as biblical view alongside the traditional view that the wicked will not be destroyed in hell.
P.O.P. Does "salted with fire" mean "tormented alive forever in fire without end"? Isn't that reading A LOT into that verse?
chessman
Member
No. Three reasons why:
Rev 16:13 (LEB) And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet three unclean spirits like frogs. 14 For they are the spirits of demons performing signs that go out to the kings of the whole inhabited world, to gather them for the battle of the great day of God the All-Powerful.
1. John says his vision was that of three unclean spirits coming out of these demons' mouths. I take John at his word over/above what some people tell me.
2. Plus, since The Beast and The False Prophet are cast into the LoF and remain there forever prior to the Final Judgment, then they don't appear at the Great White throne Judgment. Yet Jesus says it is appointed for all humans to die then face judgment. (Either the GWTJ or Bema Seat Judgment). I take Jesus at His Word.
3. The LoF is prepared for The Devil and His _______? Answer = His angels (i.e. demons).
4. [There's other very good reasons that John's vision of The Beast and The False Prophet are NOT meant to be understood as humans as well, but 1), 2) and 3) should be sufficient for a reasoned conclusion. If the conclusion that they are meant to be understood as Demons is not reasonable, then why not?]
TimothyW
Member
John 3:16 is unbiblical?
Romans 6:23 is unbiblical?
2 Thessalonians 1:9 is unbiblical?
Are ALL of these verses from the Bible unBiblical? Luke 13:3, Matthew 10:28, Matthew 7:13, Psalm 37:10, Psalm 37:20, Ezekiel 18:4, Malachi chapter 4, The book of Jude, The letter to the Romans, the book of John, are ALL of these things unbiblical? I find that hard to believe.