Eternal damnation

[poetofparables]

I do not think it is fair to lay the blame for the confusion of men on the God of order.

Maybe you're right, maybe your all wrong.

 

[chessman]

I never said anything about perfection.

The Bible never said anything about Eternal Suffering of lost people being necessary either. Think about that fact, as compared to your reaction to her statement.

Why is eternal suffering necessary.

In fact, the Bible says one thing (and only one) was/is "necessary".

Luke 24:25 And he said to them, “O foolish and slow in heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary that the Christ suffer these things [death, not His eternal suffering] and enter into his glory?”​

 

[Eugene]

That is why in Revelation 2 & 3 the Spirit shows who has been wrong and the only people doing it completely right is the church of Philadelphia. 2 & 3 are warnings to the different believers.

I hope you can see those of Smyrna also that is the only other church besides Philadelphia mentioned in Rev Chaps 2 & 3 to have a crown promised. Philadelphia receives theirs by faithfully keeping the word of God, and Smyrna for being faithful unto death.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

 

[Chopper]

According to Jesus Christ, as recorded in Matthew 7:13 and in Matthew 10:28 they will be destroyed.
According to John 3:16, they will perish. According to Jesus as recorded in Luke 13:3, unless a man repents, he will perish.
According to the Bible, as recorded in Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death.

Now. Why should I believe that the wages of sin is NOT death, but eternal conscious torment instead of death?
Why shouldn't I believe what Jesus says instead of what you say?

And I'm not even asking you to believe that the wicked will be destroyed as the Bible says.
I'm only asking that the ultimate destruction of the wicked be considered as biblical view alongside the traditional view that the wicked will not be destroyed in hell.

P.O.P. Does "salted with fire" mean "tormented alive forever in fire without end"? Isn't that reading A LOT into that verse?

Tim, the answer to your question is the word death simply means a separation from this life as we know it and separation from God. This is what you said. "Now. Why should I believe that the wages of sin is NOT death, but eternal conscious torment instead of death?" The wages of sin is death, as I just explained. I believe you are taking that word "death" and extending it's meaning against the purpose of Scriptural meaning.

 

[poetofparables]

The Bible never said anything about Eternal Suffering of lost people being necessary either. Think about that fact, as compared to your reaction to her statement.



In fact, the Bible says one thing (and only one) was/is "necessary".

Luke 24:25 And he said to them, “O foolish and slow in heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary that the Christ suffer these things [death, not His eternal suffering] and enter into his glory?”​

So if it's not necessary, why does it exist. Because its not necessary? why do you mean chessman.

 

[chessman]

So if it's not necessary, why does it exist. Because its not necessary? why do you mean chessman.

Why is eternal suffering necessary.

Your OP question (as others have pointed out already) is a presumptive compound question. It assumes that eternal suffering of lost people exists, then asks the question why does it exist.

Your question is like asking the hidden compound question "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" The form of the question itself assumes one fact that's NOT been proven true. Thus, it's an illogical question and banned from all courts of Law and/or logical argumentations (or it should be).

 

[WIP]

You do the math. 2.4 billion christians 30 thousand truth claims, and one holy spirit.

If you don't mind, I'm going to respond to this by rewriting what you did a little more accurately.
You do the math. 2.4 billion imperfect christians, 30 thousand truth claims, and one absolutely perfect Holy Spirit.

 

[chessman]

... death simply means a separation from this life as we know it and separation from God. ...

Are you sure that's true and willing to consistently use this definition for "death"? That is, death, as used in the Bible, means a separation from God?

If so, what's up with Jesus not being separated from God now, if that's the wages He paid for us? I don't believe the Bible teaches that Jesus has paid the price of an eternal separation from God. And I doubt you do either.

Also, what's up with death ( equals separation from God) not existing any longer?

Revelation 21:4 (LEB)
And he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death will not exist any longer, and mourning or wailing or pain will not exist any longer. The former things have passed away.”​

To consistently use your definition:

And he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and (separation from God) will not exist any longer, [Which is what Tim^2 are saying happens to the lost after their resurrection and judgment.]

Even death (i.e. separation from God) has passed away.

 

[poetofparables]

Your OP question (as others have pointed out already) is a presumptive compound question. It assumes that eternal suffering of lost people exists, then asks the question why does it exist.

Your question is like asking the hidden compound question "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" The form of the question itself assumes one fact that's NOT been proven true. Thus, it's an illogical question and banned from all courts of Law and/or logical argumentations (or it should be).

Ok, I get it. Not proven true hey, what's not proven true, that the bible doesn't actually make the claim of a place or state of being, that will inflict torment on it's subjects or simply destroy them. You're the first to point out you're argument this way, and I'm wondering if it's just an attempt to dodge the issue.

 

[poetofparables]

If you don't mind, I'm going to respond to this by rewriting what you did a little more accurately.
You do the math. 2.4 billion imperfect christians, 30 thousand truth claims, and one absolutely perfect Holy Spirit.

Thats pretty cool, I can see how when you put in the imperfect it nullifies the statement. Thanks wip, you're a smart guy.

 

[JLB]

No. Three reasons why:

Rev 16:13 (LEB) And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet three unclean spirits like frogs. 14 For they are the spirits of demons performing signs that go out to the kings of the whole inhabited world, to gather them for the battle of the great day of God the All-Powerful.
​

1. John says his vision was that of three unclean spirits coming out of these demons' mouths. I take John at his word over/above what some people tell me.

2. Plus, since The Beast and The False Prophet are cast into the LoF and remain there forever prior to the Final Judgment, then they don't appear at the Great White throne Judgment. Yet Jesus says it is appointed for all humans to die then face judgment. (Either the GWTJ or Bema Seat Judgment). I take Jesus at His Word.

3. The LoF is prepared for The Devil and His _______? Answer = His angels (i.e. demons).

4. [There's other very good reasons that John's vision of The Beast and The False Prophet are NOT meant to be understood as humans as well, but 1), 2) and 3) should be sufficient for a reasoned conclusion. If the conclusion that they are meant to be understood as Demons is not reasonable, then why not?]

​

A prophet is a human being that "speaks forth" the words of God as the Lord moves upon him.

A prophet is absolutely a human being.


JLB

 

[WIP]

Thats pretty cool, I can see how when you put in the imperfect it nullifies the statement. Thanks wip, you're a smart guy.

Kind of explains why we need a savior from the condemnation we already deserve doesn't it? That's where the Christ, Jesus, steps in. Trusting in Him is a step of faith that goes beyond our understanding.

 

[JLB]

Tim, the answer to your question is the word death simply means a separation from this life as we know it and separation from God. This is what you said. "Now. Why should I believe that the wages of sin is NOT death, but eternal conscious torment instead of death?" The wages of sin is death, as I just explained. I believe you are taking that word "death" and extending it's meaning against the purpose of Scriptural meaning.

Amen Brother.

Just as the rich man and Lazarus who died, did not cease to exist.

Death does not be cease to exist.

Even the human body decays over time and returns to the dust from which it came, yet doesn't cease to exist.

Thank you for being a soldier for the truth.


JLB

 

[TimothyW]

Tim, the answer to your question is the word death simply means a separation from this life as we know it and separation from God. This is what you said. "Now. Why should I believe that the wages of sin is NOT death, but eternal conscious torment instead of death?" The wages of sin is death, as I just explained. I believe you are taking that word "death" and extending it's meaning against the purpose of Scriptural meaning.

I'm sorry Chopper. You know that I love you, but you and I also know that "thanatos" does not and has never meant "separation". The Greek word for "separate" is aphorizo. Thanatos means death.

 

[TimothyW]

Maybe you're right, maybe your all wrong.

Maybe so. What does the Bible say in John 3:16?

 

[poetofparables]

Kind of explains why we need a savior from the condemnation we already deserve doesn't it? That's where the Christ, Jesus, steps in. Trusting in Him is a step of faith that goes beyond our understanding.

Yeah but I acknowledged my mistake and now desire to correct myself without Jesus telling me to do it.

 

[poetofparables]

Maybe so. What does the Bible say in John 3:16?

Ok ok, you really got something you want to show me there. Brb

 

[TimothyW]

You do the math. 2.4 billion christians 30 thousand truth claims, and one holy spirit.

One Holy Spirit to guide us into truth.
One Deceiver to lead us astray.
Which one do you think more people follow?
What did Jesus say about the wide road and the narrow road? Which road do you think has more people on it?
Even if 2.4 Billion people are wrong, that does not mean that the God of order is to blame for it. That is simply illogical. If you do not balance your checkbook properly, do you also blame God for that?

 

[JLB]

Maybe so. What does the Bible say in John 3:16?

The second death is being cast into the lake of fire, not ceasing to exist.

This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."Revelation 21:8


have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

 

[TimothyW]

Ok ok, you really got something you want to show me there. Brb

John 3:16 says
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Who will not perish? Who will perish? Who will not have eternal life? Who will have eternal life? Does this say that ANYONE will have eternal life in hell being tormented alive forever?
Please answer each of these questions.