Eternal damnation

[chessman]

Rev 12:9 calls satan a "dragon".
...

I know. And guess what? Rev 16 says a frog comes out of his mouth.

Maybe you believe that demons are demon possessed? Sorry, just too funny not to note.

Maybe you believe John didn't really say that Satan had a frog come out of his mouth too! Just like the other two! Sorry, just to funny to not note just this one of the many conflicts in logic and Scripture in your post.

I've always thought that the 'dragon' was satan himself.

Great. Then have you ever thought about the fact that John says an unclean spirit came out Satan's mouth?

I've still not seen anything that convinces me that either beast is a demon themself.

You realize that John says the three frogs are the unclean spirits of demons (plural), right? If Satan's not a demon, then where's the other demons in John's vision? Obvoius answer is The Beast and The False Prophet.

 

[chessman]

I don't know, but if the bible did, you all wouldn't be arguing about everything so much.

If we stopped arguing, would you believe in the God of the Bible?

 

[childeye]

I'm beginning to get jealous. Poetofparables is the most talked to person in this forum.

 

[jonahmano]

Why is eternal suffering necessary.

It's necessary because you weren't created like a computer where God instructs few commands and you will dance to His tunes but rather you have your own choice of choosing heaven and hell.

 

[TimothyW]

Psa 37:10 -
Yet a little while and the wicked man will be no more; And you will look carefully for his place and he will not be there.

What does the verse say?

1. in a short while, the wicked man will be no more. Or literally, "shall not be". Does it say "shall be annihilated"? No.
2. the place of the wicked man will not be there.

I don't see anything here, or any of the other verses that speak of annihilation.

Again, Rev 19 and 20 are clear to me, and I don't recall that you've addressed the phrase "night and day forever and ever" as applied to the lake of fire, in which ALL humans who don't have eternal life will be thrown into.

Do you actually need it to say annihilated? I never said the wicked will be annihilated. What I have been saying is the wicked will be no more. And that is what it says. They will be no more because they will be destroyed. If Annihilated means something different than Destroyed, we can go with Destroyed, because that what the Bible says.
I addressed Rev 19:20 don't you remember? I agreed that it says that the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire. It doesn't say that they stay alive there. Don't you remember, (Edited, ToS 2.4, rude comment. Obadiah) Remember that I showed the passage from Numbers where the people were thrown alive into Sheol, and the passage says that they perished, even though they were thrown in alive? Do you simply ignore any fact that is inconvenient to you?

The verse that talks about "night and day forever and ever" (This is important so I want you to remember it, and not come back later with the same objection) is Revelation 20:10 and it is talking about the Devil, the Beast, and the False Prophet only. This does not say that all of the lost will be tormented in the lake of fire forever. Plus you are ignoring all of the passages of scripture that say that the lost will perish and be destroyed.

Why do you want to believe in eternal conscious torment when there is much better evidence that the wicked will be destroyed?

 

[JLB]

You realize that John says the three frogs are the unclean spirits of demons (plural), right? If Satan's not a demon, then where's the other demons in John's vision? Obvoius answer is The Beast and The False Prophet.

Satan's not a demon.


JLB

Apologetics and Theology Forum guidelines require: "Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding." Please post your scripture or other evidence for your refutation. Obadiah.

 

[poetofparables]

If we stopped arguing, would you believe in the God of the Bible?

Yes once I would of, but not anymore.

 

[poetofparables]

I'm beginning to get jealous. Poetofparables is the most talked to person in this forum.

Its because I am very resistant to the belief system, and many christians would find that a challenge for them to exercise their faith.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you actually need it to say annihilated?

I reject the idea that any person will be annihilated. I believe that all those from Rev 20:15 who will be thrown into the lake of fire will be "tormented night and day forever and ever" (Rev 20:10), just as the beast, false prophet, and satan (along with all his demons).

I never said the wicked will be annihilated. What I have been saying is the wicked will be no more. And that is what it says.

OK. So, what does "be no more" mean? Up to this point, it seems your posts were pushing annihilation.

They will be no more because they will be destroyed. If Annihilated means something different than Destroyed, we can go with Destroyed, because that what the Bible says.

OK. So, what does "destroyed" mean? Your view is still not clear.

Do you believe there will be "torment night and day forever and ever" for anyone?

I addressed Rev 19:20 don't you remember? I agreed that it says that the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire. It doesn't say that they stay alive there.

Basically it sure does. The phrase "tormented night and day forever and ever" means they will be in conscious torment for eternity. How can one suffer torment for eternity if they aren't there?

Don't you remember, (Edited, ToS 2.4, rude comment. Obadiah) Remember that I showed the passage from Numbers where the people were thrown alive into Sheol, and the passage says that they perished, even though they were thrown in alive? Do you simply ignore any fact that is inconvenient to you?

Let's stick with the context of Rev. Numbers isn't about the lake of fire. Not even close. Apples and oranges.

The verse that talks about "night and day forever and ever" (This is important so I want you to remember it, and not come back later with the same objection) is Revelation 20:10 and it is talking about the Devil, the Beast, and the False Prophet only.

To be clear, they are thrown into the LAKE OF FIRE. Please keep this in mind. Now, those who's names aren't in the book of life, per Rev 20 (SAME CHAPTER):15, where are they cast? LAKE OF FIRE.

Your challenge is to demonstrate FROM Revelation that the beast, false prophet and devil will exist forever, while everyone else who is thrown into the lake of fire won't exist forever. The verse from Numbers and Sheol are NOT relevant.

This does not say that all of the lost will be tormented in the lake of fire forever. Plus you are ignoring all of the passages of scripture that say that the lost will perish and be destroyed.

Context is king. We know from Rev 20:10 that those 3 will be "tormented night and day forever and ever", and we know from Rev 20:15 that those who don't have eternal life are thrown into the SAME place.

And you haven't demonstrated that John clarified that those won't be tormented night and day forever and ever.

Here is how context works. The writer makes a comment about something, such as those cast into the lake of fire will be tormented night and day forever and ever. THEN, the writer makes another comment about MORE people being cast into the SAME lake of fire. Unless he specified that those from the GWT judgment WON'T be tormented night and day forever and ever, there is NO REASON to ASSUME that they won't.

The obvious assumption is that they WILL be tormented night and day forever and ever.

Why do you want to believe in eternal conscious torment when there is much better evidence that the wicked will be destroyed?

See above.

There is NO evidence that there won't be eternal conscious torment. Rev 20 refutes that idea completely.

 

[FreeGrace]

Satan's not a demon.

If you differentiate demons from fallen angels, please explain from Scripture.

 

[TimothyW]

Why is eternal suffering necessary.

You can see from the responses in this thread that it is by no means certain that there even IS eternal suffering, much less that it is necessary.

May God bless you in your journey.

 

[poetofparables]

You can see from the responses in this thread that it is by no means certain that there even IS eternal suffering, much less that it is necessary.

May God bless you in your journey.

Theres alot of mixed opinions, even within similar conclusions.

 

[chessman]

Yes once I would of, but not anymore.

Bare with me here and follow again.

Then your logical basis for justfiying your claim that the Bible doesn't actually have a complete picture of Hell (loosely termed Eternal Damnation in your OP then clarified by your definition "eternal suffering") falls apart.

You made the claim that the Bible doesn't have a complete picture of Hell (i.e. Eternal Damnation). Which is actually a double claim, just like your OP is. It actually has a hidden, yet unjustified, claim being made within it.

That is, that YOU know what a complete picture of Hell is, such that you can compare your known/accurate complete picture of Eternal Damnation (i.e. Hell) to what the Bible says about it. i.e. YOU have the truth about Hell in order to know whether or not the Bible's version is false. (Which, by the way, you don't really have the truth/standard by which to compare it to the Bible.)

In order for you to be sure and accurately claim that the Bible does NOT, in fact, have a complete picture of Hell, it is absolutely/logically necessary for you to have a standard by which to measure the Bible's claim to. You don't have any, other than the Bible's version, of course. At least not one your gonna find members here to agree to.

When brother FreeGrace asked you; Then who does have a complete picture of Hell? your reply was that you didn't know. Fair enough. You could have simply retracted your claim then and corrected your logic.

But you didn't and went on to say that it (the truth about Hell) cannot be found in The Bible and you know this because we all here argue about what The Bible says about Hell (Eternal Damnation).

Then I called you out on that particular justifying reason for rejecting the Bible's version of Hell (or what God's Word says about it) as well by asking you the question; If we stopped arguing would you believe God? Since you now say no, then that's not really the reason you think God's Hell is unjustifed now is it?

You now admit that even if we didn't argue over it, that wouldn't really change your view on the completeness of God's version of Hell (Eternal Damnation) either, right?

My point in all this is that if you want to find out the truth about whether Eternal Damnation is justification, yes/no? (Your OP title/question) you must think logically about it and look at valid logical arguments. Oh, and it's necessary to first define what you mean by Eternal Damnation. And for that matter, justification.

If you define Eternal Damnation as Eternal Suffering (as your first reply seems to), then you are going to find some Christians that agree with that definition and some that do not. It's been in debate since the 2nd Century. But any progress toward justifying why "Eternal Damnation" is necessary/justified (in your mind) simply cannot be made without first defining what you mean by Eternal Damnation accurately and precisely. Or at least getting agreement between you and your debater(s) on a definition of Eternal Damnation. [which is why it's NOT off topic to be discussing and providing evidence for/against the definitions; Eternal Damnation = Eternal suffering versus Eternal Damnation = Eternal Destruction.]

I, for example, do not agree that Eternal Damnation has a Biblcally based defintion equivilent to eternal concious suffering. Some here do think God's Eternal Damnation is defined as. eternal suffering. I think (as do a few others here) it's Eternal Destruction, Eternal death, Eternal Perishing, etc. and or capital punishment after all non-saved people face their creator for judgment that's Biblical. And I can see good reasons/justifications for that definition. So to me, God's complete picture of Hell ends with a second death and Eternal Destruction (though it does include suffering along the way).

Might I offer a suggestion for your continuing OP thread's progress (or lack thereof); Pick your definition, that you can agree makes the most Biblical sense (or for that matter just what you see as the most justifiable), for Eternal Damnation (now that you've seen some of the arguments for/against Eternal Suffering) and then ask people that can agree with your definition; why is that type of Eternal Damnation necessary/justified?

If you pick Eternal suffering as your definition of Eternal Damnation, I'll just simply bow out (and maybe other like minded posters will as well) of this thread and you can get justifications/reasons for that view of Hell from people that agree with you and your definition.

If you pick Eternal Damnation = Eternal Destruction, then I can provide reasons why that's necessary.

Make sense?

 

[TimothyW]

I reject the idea that any person will be annihilated. I believe that all those from Rev 20:15 who will be thrown into the lake of fire will be "tormented night and day forever and ever" (Rev 20:10), just as the beast, false prophet, and satan (along with all his demons).


OK. So, what does "be no more" mean? Up to this point, it seems your posts were pushing annihilation.

"Be no more" means just that, the wicked will not continue to exist. They will be destroyed, just as the Bible says. I never said "Annihilated". What does "Annihilated" even mean? I thought that "annihilated" and "destroyed" meant the same thing. But the Bible does not say that all sinners will be annihilated, the Bible says that all sinners will be destroyed.

OK. So, what does "destroyed" mean? Your view is still not clear.

Look it up in a dictionary. Put an end to the existence of something.

Do you believe there will be "torment night and day forever and ever" for anyone?

According to Rev 20:10, that is the fate of the devil, the beast and the false prophet. I am willing to concede (if the Book of Revelation is not symbolic) that these three will be in torment night and day forever and ever. You haven't proven that anyone else will be tortured alive forever.

Basically it sure does. The phrase "tormented night and day forever and ever" means they will be in conscious torment for eternity. How can one suffer torment for eternity if they aren't there?

, The devil, the seven headed beast, and the false prophet. You haven't proven that anyone else will suffer for eternity, so this is not proof that they continue to exist forever.

Let's stick with the context of Rev. Numbers isn't about the lake of fire. Not even close. Apples and oranges.

Look at the point I was making. You said that the people remain alive forever in the lake of fire because the Bible says that they were sent ALIVE into the lake of fire. That does not follow. Korah was sent ALIVE into Sheol, yet he perished there. This is about language use, not Sheol versus a lake of fire. Someone can be sent alive into fire and still perish in that fire.

To be clear, they are thrown into the LAKE OF FIRE. Please keep this in mind. Now, those who's names aren't in the book of life, per Rev 20 (SAME CHAPTER):15, where are they cast? LAKE OF FIRE.

To be clear, they perish in the lake of fire. You have not proven that they remain alive forever in the lake of fire being tortured alive forever.

Your challenge is to demonstrate FROM Revelation that the beast, false prophet and devil will exist forever, while everyone else who is thrown into the lake of fire won't exist forever. The verse from Numbers and Sheol are NOT relevant.

I've shown you that the Bible says that the wicked will be no more. I've shown you that people can be sent alive into something and still perish there. I've shown you that the BOR only says that the Devil, the seven headed beast and the false prophet will be tormented day and night forever. I think that you should concede that the Bible does not say that anyone else will be tormented alive forever in the lake of fire.

Context is king. We know from Rev 20:10 that those 3 will be "tormented night and day forever and ever", and we know from Rev 20:15 that those who don't have eternal life are thrown into the SAME place.

You said yourself that they don't have eternal life. So they can't be alive forever in the lake of fire. The context doesn't support your point. Think of the genre. Think of what the seven headed beast and the false prophet represent. And remember that John himself tells us that the lake of fire is the second death. Death, not eternal life on fire.

And you haven't demonstrated that John clarified that those won't be tormented night and day forever and ever.

Those? You mean everyone else? John doesn't say that anyone other than the devil, the seven headed beast, and the false prophet will be.
You haven't demonstrated that anyone else survives being thrown into the lake of fire.

Here is how context works. The writer makes a comment about something, such as those cast into the lake of fire will be tormented night and day forever and ever. THEN, the writer makes another comment about MORE people being cast into the SAME lake of fire. Unless he specified that those from the GWT judgment WON'T be tormented night and day forever and ever, there is NO REASON to ASSUME that they won't.

The Book doesn't say that they will live forever in the lake of fire. The Bible says that the wicked will not live forever. The Bible says that the wicked will be no more, so there is EVERY REASON to believe that the wicked will be no more and that they will not live forever on fire.

The obvious assumption is that they WILL be tormented night and day forever and ever.

Perhaps you should stop making assumptions and stick to what the Bible actually says.

 

[poetofparables]

Bare with me here and follow again.

Then your logical basis for justfiying your claim that the Bible doesn't actually have a complete picture of Hell (loosely termed Eternal Damnation in your OP then clarified by your definition "eternal suffering") falls apart.

You made the claim that the Bible doesn't have a complete picture of Hell (i.e. Eternal Damnation). Which is actually a double claim, just like your OP is. It actually has a hidden, yet unjustified, claim being made within it.

That is, that YOU know what a complete picture of Hell is, such that you can compare your known/accurate complete picture of Eternal Damnation (i.e. Hell) to what the Bible says about it. i.e. YOU have the truth about Hell in order to know whether or not the Bible's version is false. (Which, by the way, you don't really have the truth/standard by which to compare it to the Bible.)

In order for you to be sure and accurately claim that the Bible does NOT, in fact, have a complete picture of Hell, it is absolutely/logically necessary for you to have a standard by which to measure the Bible's claim to. You don't have any, other than the Bible's version, of course. At least not one your gonna find members here to agree to.

When brother FreeGrace asked you; Then who does have a complete picture of Hell? your reply was that you didn't know. Fair enough. You could have simply retracted your claim then and corrected your logic.

But you didn't and went on to say that it (the truth about Hell) cannot be found in The Bible and you know this because we all here argue about what The Bible says about Hell (Eternal Damnation).

Then I called you out on that particular justifying reason for rejecting the Bible's version of Hell (or what God's Word says about it) as well by asking you the question; If we stopped arguing would you believe God? Since you now say no, then that's not really the reason you think God's Hell is unjustifed now is it?

You now admit that even if we didn't argue over it, that wouldn't really change your view on the completeness of God's version of Hell (Eternal Damnation) either, right?

My point in all this is that if you want to find out the truth about whether Eternal Damnation is justification, yes/no? (Your OP title/question) you must think logically about it and look at valid logical arguments. Oh, and it's necessary to first define what you mean by Eternal Damnation. And for that matter, justification.

If you define Eternal Damnation as Eternal Suffering (as your first reply seems to), then you are going to find some Christians that agree with that definition and some that do not. It's been in debate since the 2nd Century. But any progress toward justifying why "Eternal Damnation" is necessary/justified (in your mind) simply cannot be made without first defining what you mean by Eternal Damnation accurately and precisely. Or at least getting agreement between you and your debater(s) on a definition of Eternal Damnation. [which is why it's NOT off topic to be discussing and providing evidence for/against the definitions; Eternal Damnation = Eternal suffering versus Eternal Damnation = Eternal Destruction.]

I, for example, do not agree that Eternal Damnation has a Biblcally based defintion equivilent to eternal concious suffering. Some here do think God's Eternal Damnation is defined as. eternal suffering. I think (as do a few others here) it's Eternal Destruction, Eternal death, Eternal Perishing, etc. and or capital punishment after all non-saved people face their creator for judgment that Biblical. And I can see good reasons/justifications for that definition.

Might I offer a suggestion for your continuing OP thread's progress (or lack thereof); Pick your definition, that you can agree makes the most Biblical sense (or for that matter just what you see as the most justifiable), for Eternal Damnation (now that you've seen some of the arguments for/against Eternal Suffering) and then ask people that can agree with your definition; why is that type of Eternal Damnation necessary/justified?

If you pick Eternal suffering as your definition of Eternal Damnation, I'll just simply bow out (and maybe other like minded posters will as well) of this thread and you can get justifications/reasons for that view of Hell from people that agree with you and your definition.

If you pick Eternal Damnation = Eternal Destruction, then I can provide reasons why that's necessary.

Make sense?

Ok chessman, thanks as usual

I'll then define the parameters of my OP "its not true" I didnt ask the question because I believed it was true. I asked the question to christians who believed it was true. And the same applies to the rest of my posts regarding this subject.

 

[chessman]

I'll then define the parameters of my OP "its not true" I didnt ask the question because I believed it was true. I asked the question to christians who believed it was true. And the same applies to the rest of my posts regarding this subject.

What is it that you are claiming is not a true statement (in your opinion)?;

The Eternal destruction of all unbelievers is necessary.

Or

The Eternal suffering of all unbelievers is necessary.

 

[poetofparables]

What is it that you are claiming is not a true statement (in your opinion)?;

The Eternal destruction of all unbelievers is necessary.

Or

The Eternal suffering of all unbelievers is necessary.

Why eternal suffering is necessary, if you ascribe to that belief.

 

[poetofparables]

Note: As to the title of my thread.

dam·na·tion
(dăm-nā′shən)
n.
1. The act of damning or the condition of being damned.

2.
a. Condemnation to everlasting punishment; doom.

b. Everlasting punishment.

3. Failure or ruination incurred by adverse criticism.

 

[poetofparables]

Note: As to the title of my thread.

dam·na·tion
(dăm-nā′shən)
n.
1. The act of damning or the condition of being damned.

2.
a. Condemnation to everlasting punishment; doom.

b. Everlasting punishment.

3. Failure or ruination incurred by adverse criticism.

Hmm, now that I think of it, that doesn't really edify my OP all that much.

 

[JLB]

Satan's not a demon.


JLB

Apologetics and Theology Forum guidelines require: "Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding." Please post your scripture or other evidence for your refutation. Obadiah.

Satan is the Ruler of the fallen angels.

He is an angel.

So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 12:9


He sits as a ruler on his throne.

I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. Revelation 2:13



If you have a scripture that shows us that Satan or the false prophet are demons, please share it with us so we can discuss it.

If you don't have a scripture that says Satan, or the False Prophet are demons, then we must conclude that they are not and, that both humans and angels both, suffer the same fate of being tormented day and night forever and ever.

as Jesus said -

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

Both those whom Jesus cursed and the devil and his angels suffer the same fate of being cast into the everlasting fire.


The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10


The beast that is thrown into the lake of fire, is also known as the antichrist, or the lawless one in 2 Thessalonians 2.

He also is a man.


11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.
Revelation 13:11-17


...he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast... for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.


The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

The beast and false Prophet are men, and Satan is an angel.

None of which are demons.



JLB