Eternal hell with new creation?

[T. E. Smith]

The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Mr. Smith, are you really looking for the truth here or are you just out to rattle peoples chains? Lets use some common sense here. First, as I've stated earlier, (Rm. 6:23) clearly states the the wages of sin is "death". This does not mean the first death that most of God's creation will experience before His return. This of course includes the lost and the saved. This is the consequence of sin. The second death, which only the wicked will experience is what is referred to in (Rm. 6:23). It is execution in Hell, and the length of suffering one experience is based on their sins. Does this sound like something a just, and loving God would do, in order that the sin problem does not take root again in His New Kingdom here on earth?

Now take (Rev. 14:11; 20:10) as you understand them, and what your understanding does is it puts the Bible in a state of internal conflict. Meaning texts on the same topic contradicting each other. Please understand the Bible which speaks for God does not contradict itself. This contradiction only occurs when individuals misunderstand what the Bible is saying.

To right the contradiction as you see it, is to understand that the term, "forever and ever"in the contexts of the two verses in Rev., means "until death." Understood as such, you see that your understand will harmonize with (Rm. 6:23) thus removing the internal conflict you understanding created.

Lets consider another verse that uses the word, "eternal", which is synonymous with the word "everlasting", (Jude 1:7) Jude states, that Sodom and Gomorrah "serve as an example", the punishment of "eternal fire".
Now, do you believe that these fires and their smoke are still ongoing today? I'm sure common sense tells you, no. Why, because fires can burn themselves out once they consume all that consumable and nothing is left to burn but ash. Such is the fires of Hell.

When one reasons as I have just shared, then the Bible remains in harmony in it's teaching and one knows that their understanding is truth.

The problem I see here is that you do quote scripture but your whole position actually rests on this statement you made,

“Does this sound like something a just, and loving God would do, in order that the sin problem does not take root again in His New Kingdom here on earth?”

That is not why the wicked are not admitted to Heaven but have to spend eternity where the Devil and his horde go. There are only two residences. God is not trying to solve the “sin problem” by this arrangement. And what is more, justice demands payment. Jesus paid the price for whosoever will, our choice. Whosoever will not pays the price themselves. Justice and love.

 

[T. E. Smith]

It’s difficult to believe Jesus knew what he was talking about when it comes to eternally in Heaven but was greatly mistaken when it comes to eternally in Hell. The human mind naturally revolves against such illogic.

Except that heaven is a comfortable idea, so people accept and believe in it gladly. (Polls show that Many Americans believe in heaven but not Hell.) Hell, is not. No, the mind does not revolt against such illogic, but rather embraces it because it is comfortable.

This is a good point, but any argument based on attributes of God are likely to be faulty.

Yeah, I was just addressing the idea of God not being present in Hell.

We certainly will but by the. it’s too late to render that understanding life/eternity destination changing.

Sorry, I can't understand this post.

That’s my point. It sounds good to people which renders a reward.

When people are actually in Hell, will they be happy there, satisfied, feeling good about it? Or will they realize they were very wrong?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Except that heaven is a comfortable idea, so people accept and believe in it gladly. (Polls show that Many Americans believe in heaven but not Hell.) Hell, is not. No, the mind does not revolt against such illogic, but rather embraces it because it is comfortable.

Liking the idea of Heaven and disliking the idea of Hell doesn’t make the matter true. It isn’t up to a vote.

Yeah, I was just addressing the idea of God not being present in Hell.

Sorry, I can't understand this post.

Auto typing. I corrected it.

When people are actually in Hell, will they be happy there, satisfied, feeling good about it? Or will they realize they were very wrong?

We were talking about peoples perception now, not when they realize they’ve made a huge mistake when alive. Atheists hope hell is just non-existence. That means there’s no punishment (justice) for deeds done in the body.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Be careful with statements like this, as many people, each smarter than all of us put together, have believed and do believe in an eternal hell.

Jesus is included in the number. Some consider him the expert on these things.

 

[Free]

I didn't mention anything about Gehenna and Tartaroo, but since you brought it up I agree all three are different from each other.

I know you didn’t mention those. I was correcting this: “We have always been taught hell is a place where non-believers in God go to for eternity, but according to scripture this is not what hell is. Hell is described as the world of the dead, a place where the departed go that have died as being lowered in a grave/pit.”

Hell is “a place where non-believers in God go to for eternity.” Hell is Gehenna, which is most likely the lake of fire. Hades is the grave, it is not hell. That is the point.

 

[hawkman]

Does God promise He is with the wicked same as the righteous?

Yes but how does that apply to the wicked after their judgement and placement in hell ? Something to chew on .

There are those who do not want Heaven and say so. I’ve heard them. They call God bad names and curse Him. If that isn’t desiring separation, what is?

I agree they don’t know what they’re asking but Jesus who described hell more than all the others put together never mentioned eternal separation from God as one of the torments. Not once that I recall. Am I mistaken?

Correct " they don't know what they're asking " . Let's look at it this way , in hell they will be separated from God's love and compassion .

I think this is a theology to make Christians comfort themselves by the assumption that all the horrible descriptions of hell aren’t true. It’s just separation from God (and that’s not so bad.)

Sure God will be in hell BUT how will God reveal Himself in hell ? God will not be sharing the good things , there will be no escape from the wrath of God . Where the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched .

You and I have never been separated from God , how can you suggest that would be " not so bad " ? We have NO idea how bad it would be like to be separated from out Creator and I don't want to find out ! We have ALWAYS had God's love and compassion in our lives even when we were in sin.

That is a vague statement. If you mean once one lives out their time in hell, making restitution for their sins, and then are reduce to ashes, then, yes I agreed. Perhaps you have something else in mind and need to clarify you position more clearly.

Hell is eternal , I see it no other way . How can a spirit be reduced to ashes ? Our spirit is eternal .

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes but how does that apply to the wicked after their judgement and placement in hell ? Something to chew on .

Where is the scripture that says He is with the wicked? The point is that some say Hell is just not having God with them. That’s it. It’s not the position Jesus took but some here think that.

Correct " they don't know what they're asking " . Let's look at it this way , in hell they will be separated from God's love and compassion .

The problem is they won’t be alone in Hell. And there are descriptions of their experiences, done of which indicate that they miss God.

Sure God will be in hell BUT how will God reveal Himself in hell ? God will not be sharing the good things , there will be no escape from the wrath of God . Where the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched .

The worm dying not and the fire not quenched doesn’t sound like they miss the good things.

You and I have never been separated from God , how can you suggest that would be " not so bad " ? We have NO idea how bad it would be like to be separated from out Creator and I don't want to find out ! We have ALWAYS had God's love and compassion in our lives even when we were in sin.

As I said, Jesus’ description of the place doesn’t give any suggestion that separation from God is the worst part.

Hell is eternal , I see it no other way . How can a spirit be reduced to ashes ? Our spirit is eternal .

Correct. The wicked are not put out of their misery.

There’s a consideration that is important. If Christians tell atheists that the punishment in Hell is separation from God and they are assured nothing worse and then find out Hell is as bad as Jesus described it, what has that Christian done?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I know you didn’t mention those. I was correcting this: “We have always been taught hell is a place where non-believers in God go to for eternity, but according to scripture this is not what hell is. Hell is described as the world of the dead, a place where the departed go that have died as being lowered in a grave/pit.”

So you are saying believers who die don’t go to be with the Lord” but go to Hell instead? It’s a place where all the departed go? I think you are in error here.

Hell is “a place where non-believers in God go to for eternity.” Hell is Gehenna, which is most likely the lake of fire. Hades is the grave, it is not hell. That is the point.

How is this significant?

 

[T. E. Smith]

There’s a consideration that is important. If Christians tell atheists that the punishment in Hell is separation from God and they are assured nothing worse and then find out Hell is as bad as Jesus described it, what has that Christian done?

Indeed, an excellent point.

So you are saying believers who die don’t go to be with the Lord” but go to Hell instead? It’s a place where all the departed go? I think you are in error here.

Tricky... "Sheol" in the OT is where both believers and non-believers go.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Indeed, an excellent point.

Tricky... "Sheol" in the OT is where both believers and non-believers go.

You are correct but that was before Jesus’ resurrection. It’s my understanding that this has radically changed since then.

 

[Free]

So you are saying believers who die don’t go to be with the Lord” but go to Hell instead?

No, I have said nothing about believers. I have very clearly said that hades is not hell. One could perhaps make the case that it is a temporary hell for unbelievers, but it is not the final destination of unbelievers.

It’s a place where all the departed go?

All the unbelievers, yes.

I think you are in error here.

I’m quite certain I’m not.

How is this significant?

It’s significant in the context of the discussion I am having with another user.

 

[T. E. Smith]

You are correct but that was before Jesus’ resurrection. It’s my understanding that this has radically changed since then.

From whence does that idea come?

 

[JLB]

The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?

Those who refuse to submit to and lovingly obey our gracious Savior, Creator and King will not be a part of the restored creation.



“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
Revelation 22:12-15

• But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9





JLB

 

[JLB]

All the unbelievers, yes.

Unbeliever = Disobedient


Disobedience is unbelief.




And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9





JLB

 

[JLB]

Why would this not make sense, after all, when God had finished six days of creation, He said that all he had made was very good. (Gen. 1:31)

God is still creating…

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No, I have said nothing about believers. I have very clearly said that We have always been taught hell is a place where non-believers in God go to for eternity, but according to scripture this is not what hell is. Hell is described as the world of the dead, a place where the departed go that have died as being lowered in a grave/pit.” destination of unbelievers.

You wrote, “We have always been taught hell is a place where non-believers in God go to for eternity, but according to scripture this is not what hell is. Hell is described as the world of the dead, a place where the departed go that have died as being lowered in a grave/pit.”

Since believers number among the dead, why is it you are not saying the believers (also dead) are not in Hell?

All the unbelievers, yes.


I’m quite certain I’m not.


It’s significant in the context of the discussion I am having with another user.

Ok. Thanks.

 

[Free]

Unbeliever = Disobedient


Disobedience is unbelief.




And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9





JLB

Ok.

 

[Free]

You wrote, “We have always been taught hell is a place where non-believers in God go to for eternity, but according to scripture this is not what hell is. Hell is described as the world of the dead, a place where the departed go that have died as being lowered in a grave/pit.”

I didn’t write that. I was quoting someone else.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I didn’t write that. I was quoting someone else.

Sorry, wasn’t clear. My apologies.

 

[JLB]

The problem I see here is that you do quote scripture but your whole position actually rests on this statement you made,

Because Calvinism is the doctrine of man.



JLB